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Old 08-28-2007, 10:45 AM   #126
Daniel Ranger-Holt
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
Aikido is my art, but I love BJJ and have incorporated just the ground escapes into my style. Not any submissions, but how to get out/away.
This is the man i need to speak to...HOW ABOUT TEACHING ME Right im in the UK Luron...how far is that from you. Seriously ypu understand where i'm going though? How to escape evade a grappling situation would be a perfect addition to my Aikido training i personally feel.

If you don't midn me asking, After 20 or so years of Aikido training how confident would you feel you would have been on the ground without that additional BJJ training, if you can answer that question.
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:12 AM   #127
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
This is the man i need to speak to...HOW ABOUT TEACHING ME Right im in the UK Luron...how far is that from you. Seriously you understand where i'm going though? How to escape evade a grappling situation would be a perfect addition to my Aikido training i personally feel.

If you don't mind me asking, After 20 or so years of Aikido training how confident would you feel you would have been on the ground without that additional BJJ training, if you can answer that question.
I understand. If a *good* BJJer does gets you on the ground, and that depends on your skills, **if you don't know what you're doing** they will waste you. I don't mean just any practitioner at all, but someone with skills. Anyone that tells you different hasn't been there.

Now, if you have some ground skills, depending on where they're from, that won't necessarily be the case. Some Aikido/Aikibudo styles (few) do have ground work.

I'm not into submissions. Escaping though - that's a good thing!

Larry Novick
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ACE Aikido
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:28 AM   #128
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I have taught Aikido for 25 years, and studied BJJ privately with the guy who taught for Rickson, for a few years. I have studied other stuff over the years, but not for a while now. Aikido is my art, but I love BJJ and have incorporated just the ground escapes into my style. Not any submissions, but how to get out/away.
Good to here. Like I said before, this sort of thing is required if you come up against multiple opponents, and one of them gets hold of you, won't let go, and trys to pull you down.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:30 AM   #129
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I can garantee if you do something like a wrist twsit (Kote Gaeshi) on me (any throw), and I go down, you will not pin me with an Aikikai based pin. You want even turn me over! Now I am trained and will resist. Once I am on the floor, I will not let go of you. Start hitting or kicking, your coming down to the floor with me.
Hello
If it is addressed to me
I would reply that, you are a tad far, so we will probably never know.
Besides, I do not know you well enough to go down on the first date, anyway.

That being said I can not disagree with you there at least in principle.
Like the sihonague pin, I think it is there to make the technique finish pretty.
However shiho nague and kote-gaishi are relatively done in a relatively kind way. There are nastier way to apply them and the ability to recover from the throw is directly linked to how nasty you apply the technique.
(Personally, I see more shihonague and kote gaishi akin to the medieval bone breakers version of those two, so the pin is kind of frivolus)

That is how we do kote gaishi (we are not part of iwama/takemusu but we do it in a similar fashion)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP0VR2ncAgE (between 3.30 and 4:00)

For the record kote gaishi done like that is on the part with nikkio as my second most hated technique to receive (The first being jije garami koshi nague )

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
So from here, what do you plan to do when "my" friends are coming for you?
Not being there when and where you and them turn up. :-)

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Old 08-28-2007, 11:36 AM   #130
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I have taught Aikido for 25 years, and studied BJJ privately with the guy who taught for Rickson, for a few years. I have studied other stuff over the years, but not for a while now. Aikido is my art, but I love BJJ and have incorporated just the ground escapes into my style. Not any submissions, but how to get out/away.
i have rolled around a few time (never is such fine company as your) and i have to admit is lot of fun.

I am quite intersted by the escape would you mind if i contacted you privatley?

phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:39 AM   #131
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Good to here. Like I said before, this sort of thing is required if you come up against multiple opponents, and one of them gets hold of you, won't let go, and trys to pull you down.

Regards,
I would say - already Got you down, but yea, that's the idea....

Larry Novick
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:41 AM   #132
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
i have rolled around a few time (never is such fine company as your) and i have to admit is lot of fun.

I am quite intersted by the escape would you mind if i contacted you privatley?

phil
Sure. By escapes I mean the basic escapes from being mounted, reversals from the guard that allow you to get up and away, and some basic knowledge of the other basic positions. Not too much, as I don't imagine too much need to know how to get out of every hold there is etc. For people who want that, they should study the whole art....

Larry Novick
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:53 AM   #133
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello
If it is addressed to me
I would reply that, you are a tad far, so we will probably never know.
Besides, I do not know you well enough to go down on the first date, anyway.
I do travel to the UK for conferences, so it could be arranged :-). The second comment makes me :-(.

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
That being said I can not disagree with you there at least in principle.
Like the sihonague pin, I think it is there to make the technique finish pretty.
However shiho nague and kote-gaishi are relatively done in a relatively kind way. There are nastier way to apply them and the ability to recover from the throw is directly linked to how nasty you apply the technique.
(Personally, I see more shihonague and kote gaishi akin to the medieval bone breakers version of those two, so the pin is kind of frivolus)
Ah, but the Aikikai have a very pacifistic view, hence they would not teach to break the wrist. But the point is still, if you have someone who can fall fast enough because he is trained it won't matter that you tried to break the wrist.

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
That is how we do kote gaishi (we are not part of iwama/takemusu but we do it in a similar fashion)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP0VR2ncAgE (between 3.30 and 4:00)
I look forward to watching the vid but I am shaped at the moment (stupid crap broadband in Australia). I have trained at the Iwama School here, and their techniques are leaps and bounds above those of the Aikikai. I have adopted their turn of technique for kote gaeshi but in Yoseikan the standard pin from kote gaeshi is a juji gatame (arm bar) from judo.

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
For the record kote gaishi done like that is on the part with nikkio as my second most hated technique to receive (The first being jije garami koshi nague )
Just want to ask for more info. We have a similar technique we call Genseki Otoshi (rock drop) where you have ukes arms in a juji nage, but you throw them like Seoi Nage (shoulder throw).

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Not being there when and where you and them turn up. :-)
That is avoiding the point. Saying it won't happen won't stop it from happening (obviously I am not talking about me :-) I would never do something like that; I am talking about the guys you never want to meet in a pub or on the street who insist.

Regards,

Last edited by wildaikido : 08-28-2007 at 11:58 AM. Reason: question

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:55 AM   #134
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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I would say - already Got you down, but yea, that's the idea....
For the sake of conversation (as in I could click on the link, but I though I would ask), where is your school located Larry, I try to be in LA as much as possible for training purposes.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:00 PM   #135
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
For the sake of conversation (as in I could click on the link, but I though I would ask), where is your school located Larry, I try to be in LA as much as possible for training purposes.

Regards,
I'm in Santa Monica. Come by anytime. :-) Don't expect a lot of BJJ training though, there's a lot of other stuff to do that takes precedence....

Larry Novick
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:08 PM   #136
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I'm in Santa Monica. Come by anytime. :-) Don't expect a lot of BJJ training though, there's a lot of other stuff to do that takes precedence....
I wasn't thinking that. Besides, if I want BJJ training I will swing by Torrance and work out with the Gracie's!

I just interested at what regular training is like with someone who sounds very practical themselves. Especially Ki Aikido (sorry had to clip I couldn't resist). We don't have any Ki Aikido here in WA, the closest is 2000 miles away on the other side of the country. I would love to see some practical Ki Aikido, I mean I respect Tohei Sensei, he had powerful technique, I just haven't seen it from others.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:10 PM   #137
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Hmmm, ok, i dont think im explaining myself very well. Surely having some kind of grappling ability is a plus, if i am looking for straight self defence as opposed to having none.
Phillipe can you explain my mis conception about self defense because i didn't understand what it was, cheers.

Good discussion.
Well English is not my first language, so I am probably ultra clear.
;-)

In absolute term yes you are right, it is better to be competent in ground fight. But self -defence is not an absolute context.
In relative terms and for self defence/self protection when will you need that?
In other terms how likely it is for you to end up on the floor and is there any thing you will be able to do about it. Most of us are not professional and we have a limited amount of training time.

IE is it worth investing time for the return you will get.

If you are in a part of the world where one v one are likely and there is a relatively safe way to recognise them. Then it is worth starting BJJ
Bouncers for examples are in that case.
You will have one v one, you opponent may be a skilful grappler and in the case of a one vs many, you can hold them off the time the cavalry arrives.

If you are in a part of the world where you are likely to have situation where it is one v several (or several v several), you probably can spend your time on something more productive for you than BJJ.
We are outside the two case where bjj is really useful it is not one on one and there may be cavalry in the vicinity or not.
In all likely hood, unless you are very good at BJJ (but in that case BJJ is your primary martial arts), the best result is that you will marginally delay the moment where they will gang-kick your head in whilst he is keeping you bussy.

It has nothing to do with BJJ being useful or useless; it is just a matter of what tactical choice it offers in your situation. Ie available training time vs occasion to use it.

In that second case it is probably time better spend to work of weapons defence than ground work or striking strategy to prevent an opponent to close in or to escape take down attempts or escape during the transition takedown groundwork (but if your oppoenet is good that will be well integrated in his game , hence difficult to escape him at that stage)

Those last two are just example; does that make more sense.

Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:26 PM   #138
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Yes, Yoseikan, Yoshikhan and Shodokan Aikido bring more focus towards self defense,
Well, at least as far as Shodokan is concerned, I think I'd take issue with this a little bit. The focus is practical, right enough, but there isn't a specific focus on 'self defence' unless a particular teacher or class decides to go that way. (For example the work that the Yoshinkan and Shodokan dojos do with various police forces.)
The Shodokan 'competitive' randori is not intended to develop 'self defence' skills, its intended to develop aikido skills. Its a subtle difference, but an important one imo.

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
This is my definition of self defence. The person must be untrained or you are not defending yourself. If you "defend yourself" against a trained attacker, he will win, as he is attacking, and you are defending! If he is trained you must fight him
This seems like semantic hair-splitting, and a bit of a weird definition to me, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

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A lot of the old old great went through England (Tani), and some old great (Abe).
Not sure about 'a lot' of the old old greats. If you mean Yukio Tani, he was pretty much unique in these islands back then. (As was Kenshiro Abbe in his time - primarily a judo instructor, but incidentally the first to teach aikido, kyudo, kendo and karate here.)

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Ah, but the Aikikai have a very pacifistic view, hence they would not teach to break the wrist.
I think you need to be a bit careful about generalising here. The Aikikai is a very broad organisation, stylistically speaking. There are a lot of shihans there, some doing flowery stuff, others less so.

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I have trained at the Iwama School here, and their techniques are leaps and bounds above those of the Aikikai.
See, this is what I mean. Until very recently Iwama was Aikikai.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:36 PM   #139
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
IE is it worth investing time for the return you will get.
Hopefully no one studying Aikido actually wants to fight or even have to defend themselves. But if you are investing in an "insurance policy" and you choose to to take the flood cover because you live in an arid region, and then the rains come, you have nothing. Hence if on of several people you have to defend yourself from, as YOU are saying is most likely (I would love to see some numbers on this) then you need to train with multiple partners, have one grab hold of you drag you down, and then try and deal with the others. Look at the shodan test of Steven Seagal. That is what you need to deal with. I would say after twenty years your need to escape from the ground will decrease since your stand up has improved so much, but in the mean time... This is why we have strikes, sutemi, sweeps and ground fighting in Yoseikan, because in the 50's Mochizuki's Aikido alone was not good enough to overcome his challengers in France. So he used his karate and judo. He would always test O'Sensei, so obviously Aikido worked for him. Look at modern Yoseikan Budo, they have gone even further in this direction. But I am sure that Mochizuki Kancho would have easily overcome his son or any of his students with their new methods of fighting. Hence, Mochizuki Kancho's techniques were better than Hiroo Mochizuki's techniques, and O'Sensei's techniques were better than Mochizuki Kancho's. So the goal is O'Sensei, but you have to train at lower levels to develop true Aikido, you don't just emulate O'Sensei's techniques, because he could do them with a resisting opponent, as Mochizuki Kancho would always test him, and O'Sensei would say, "Mochizuki! I have to watch you."

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:48 PM   #140
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Sean Orchard wrote: View Post
This seems like semantic hair-splitting, and a bit of a weird definition to me, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
I think this is a very important distinction, if you have a self defence mentality against a person who is trained you have no hope. If some random guy just swings a telegraphed haymaker at you, hence he is not trained; you can do what ever you want to defend yourself. But if someone puts there hands up starts dancing and leading with jabs to test your defence, so he can set up his hook or cross, you must attack, you must overwhelm his spirit with yours, you must enter, and then you can do the techniques that are applicable.

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Sean Orchard wrote: View Post
Not sure about 'a lot' of the old old greats. If you mean Yukio Tani, he was pretty much unique in these islands back then. (As was Kenshiro Abbe in his time - primarily a judo instructor, but incidentally the first to teach aikido, kyudo, kendo and karate here.)
I would have hoped that these men would have left behind some sort of legacy of great Budo. I know of a guy in Scotland who was a student on Abbe, and he in a strong Aikidoka.

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Sean Orchard wrote: View Post
I think you need to be a bit careful about generalising here. The Aikikai is a very broad organisation, stylistically speaking. There are a lot of shihans there, some doing flowery stuff, others less so.
I think the Aikikai from the top down, has a definite direction it wants Aikido to go in. Those who are on the out are in the minority, and will soon retire and be replace with people from the current regimes mentality.

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Sean Orchard wrote: View Post
See, this is what I mean. Until very recently Iwama was Aikikai.
I think after the recent events that have happened in Iwama, Iwama was never Aikikai! Other wise what happened would not have happened!

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:49 PM   #141
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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I wasn't thinking that. Besides, if I want BJJ training I will swing by Torrance and work out with the Gracie's!

I just interested at what regular training is like with someone who sounds very practical themselves. Especially Ki Aikido (sorry had to clip I couldn't resist). We don't have any Ki Aikido here in WA, the closest is 2000 miles away on the other side of the country. I would love to see some practical Ki Aikido, I mean I respect Tohei Sensei, he had powerful technique, I just haven't seen it from others.

Regards,
Although I more or less come fromt Ki Aikido originally, we have gone many other places since.... I am totally into Ki though....

Larry Novick
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:51 PM   #142
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
Although I more or less come fromt Ki Aikido originally, we have gone many other places since.... I am totally into Ki though....
Arn't we all in Ai KI do

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:58 PM   #143
Daniel Ranger-Holt
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

- Hmmmm

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post

IE is it worth investing time for the return you will get.
Yeah i suppose by that method of thinking its not worth me investing so much time in Aikido when the chances are i wont be in a fight. I've gone all my adult life without fighting, 13 or so years. Not once.

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post

In other terms how likely it is for you to end up on the floor and is there any thing you will be able to do about it.
Well if you have no grappling trainng at all, your chances of doing anything about it (being on the ground) are minimal. If you have some they increase. It just seems blatantly obvious to me.

However i'm not looking to change your views which is how some debates end up, i have no need to my friend, im just thinking about what is practical for me. Being a doorman in a few months, and how i feel helpless if a scuffle was to take me to the ground after studying Aikido for a bit, i dont feel now, thats good enough.

Am i supposed to carry on feeling helpless because statisically i wont go to the floor or, because its not an "absolute" i will go down. All that kind of talk washes over me. I think its a case of what i think would work best for me, and what makes sense in my own head, as well as taking on the views of those such as yourself my sensei and higher grades.

As i said, any serious crosstraining for me really is out of the picture, i dont have the time realistically. But i do wonder as i said. Perhaps my confidence in my Aikido will increase as time goes on, as as someone said i wont even worry about going to the ground.
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:10 PM   #144
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I do travel to the UK for conferences, so it could be arranged :-). The second comment makes me :-(.
,
well if you come often enough it may change :-)
we are close to london, you can contact me privatly.

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Ah, but the Aikikai have a very pacifistic view, hence they would not teach to break the wrist. But the point is still, if you have someone who can fall fast enough because he is trained it won't matter that you tried to break the wrist.
I look forward to watching the vid but I am shaped at the moment (stupid crap broadband in Australia). I have trained at the Iwama School here, and their techniques are leaps and bounds above those of the Aikikai. I have adopted their turn of technique for kote gaeshi but in Yoseikan the standard pin from kote gaeshi is a juji gatame (arm bar) from judo.
,
That is the one with our leg across his chest and using the hyper extension of the arm, his elbow about our hips or thigh. Right
In the video, and what we use there is a similar principle to turn Uke over.
But the weakness of the pin is here you are right. That being said, I can rarely escape it.
With there about similar grade or higher grade we put more resistance but may be not as much as you describe. (without meeting it is hard to say)

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Just want to ask for more info. We have a similar technique we call Genseki Otoshi (rock drop) where you have ukes arms in a juji nage, but you throw them like Seoi Nage (shoulder throw).
This is done exactly like that in medieval wrestling as well. So I associated it with jije garami koshy. I think we have two version one with and without the shoulder but I need to check which is what.
In any case we have version of shiho nague that looks like ippon seoi nage usually done on the ura side and the arm in hyper extension.

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
That is avoiding the point. Saying it won't happen won't stop it from happening (obviously I am not talking about me :-) I would never do something like that; I am talking about the guys you never want to meet in a pub or on the street who insist.
Regards,
I believe that lots of situation can be avoided by avoiding the 3 stupid ( doing stupid things in stupid places with stupid peoples), but as you said perfectly innocent place can fill with the said 3 stupid at the drop of the hat.
If push comes to shove, well, if one mum has to cry it might as well not be mine.

:-)
phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:18 PM   #145
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
- Hmmmm

Yeah i suppose by that method of thinking its not worth me investing so much time in Aikido when the chances are i wont be in a fight. I've gone all my adult life without fighting, 13 or so years. Not once.

Well if you have no grappling trainng at all, your chances of doing anything about it (being on the ground) are minimal. If you have some they increase. It just seems blatantly obvious to me.

However i'm not looking to change your views which is how some debates end up, i have no need to my friend, im just thinking about what is practical for me. Being a doorman in a few months, and how i feel helpless if a scuffle was to take me to the ground after studying Aikido for a bit, i dont feel now, thats good enough.

Am i supposed to carry on feeling helpless because statisically i wont go to the floor or, because its not an "absolute" i will go down. All that kind of talk washes over me. I think its a case of what i think would work best for me, and what makes sense in my own head, as well as taking on the views of those such as yourself my sensei and higher grades.

As i said, any serious crosstraining for me really is out of the picture, i dont have the time realistically. But i do wonder as i said. Perhaps my confidence in my Aikido will increase as time goes on, as as someone said i wont even worry about going to the ground.
hum are we not saying the same thing here?
ie
If you are in a part of the world where one v one are likely and there is a relatively safe way to recognise them. Then it is worth starting BJJ
Bouncers for examples are in that case.
You will have one v one, you opponent may be a skilful grappler and in the case of a one vs many, you can hold them off the time the cavalry arrives.
phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:29 PM   #146
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
That is the one with our leg across his chest and using the hyper extension of the arm, his elbow about our hips or thigh. Right
In the video, and what we use there is a similar principle to turn Uke over.
But the weakness of the pin is here you are right. That being said, I can rarely escape it.
With there about similar grade or higher grade we put more resistance but may be not as much as you describe. (without meeting it is hard to say)
Correct technique. We do this because a smart uke will retract his arm and grasp it with his other. Hence turning him over even with the Iwama method cannot be done. Judo has techniques to deal with people resisting the juji gatame, hence if he resists we can still do the pin.

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
This is done exactly like that in medieval wrestling as well. So I associated it with jije garami koshy. I think we have two version one with and without the shoulder but I need to check which is what.
In any case we have version of shiho nague that looks like ippon seoi nage usually done on the ura side and the arm in hyper extension.
I don't like the shiho nage koshi gaeshi, it a killer

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
I believe that lots of situation can be avoided by avoiding the 3 stupid ( doing stupid things in stupid places with stupid peoples), but as you said perfectly innocent place can fill with the said 3 stupid at the drop of the hat.
If push comes to shove, well, if one mum has to cry it might as well not be mine.
That's a great saying, I may use it. I think it was in this thread that I mentioned I have been in two self defence situations; both were because I was with stupid people doing stupid things . I like to think that I am not training to defend myself, but to protect my family.

Regards,

BTW, I am half way through the vid of Saito Sensei, I am adding it to my favourite. This is the first time I have seen footage of someone doing the suwari waza from Budo Renshu! COOL!

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 02:17 PM   #147
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Sean Orchard wrote: View Post
See, this is what I mean. Until very recently Iwama was Aikikai.
I would say that the vast majority of Iwama style students still belong to Aikikai. The majority of the senior students of M.Saito are still affiliated to Aikikai, both in the USA and Europe (Witt, Alexander, Goto, Hendricks, Tom, Evenås,Corralini, Andersson, Toutain, Seargant, De Quiros, Kessler, etc..).
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Old 08-28-2007, 02:46 PM   #148
deepsoup
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
if you have a self defence mentality against a person who is trained you have no hope.
Like I said, semantic quibbling*. Whatever I do to defend myself, be it reactive, proactive or whatever is 'self defence' by definition.

Quote:
But if someone puts there hands up starts dancing and leading with jabs to test your defence, so he can set up his hook or cross, you must attack
Nope, I must defend myself.
Attacking, entering, etc., is one form my self defence may take, not the only one. I wouldn't want to replace my 'self defence' mentality with an 'attacking' mentality, since that closes off other options.

Its also not entirely a moot point that whatever I do in self defence is legal, whereas an 'attacking mentality' lays me open to criminal prosecution.

(Of course, since I'm more interested in budo than in self-defence, what I'd really like to acheive is no mentality. Mushin mugamae! Maybe someday. )

Quote:
Those who are on the out are in the minority, and will soon retire and be replace with people from the current regimes mentality.
You're a bit of a conspiracy theorist, I see. I'm not involved with the Aikikai personally, but this just doesn't ring true. You credit the powers that be at the aikikai with the kind of control over its many shihans that would make herding cats look like a walk in the park.

Sean
x

* There's a hint of macho posturing about it too. Inevitable I suppose, that a thread with BJJ mentioned in its title should drift that way as it rambles on.
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Old 08-28-2007, 03:15 PM   #149
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
I would say that the vast majority of Iwama style students still belong to Aikikai. The majority of the senior students of M.Saito are still affiliated to Aikikai, both in the USA and Europe (Witt, Alexander, Goto, Hendricks, Tom, Evenås,Corralini, Andersson, Toutain, Seargant, De Quiros, Kessler, etc..).
Afaik Toutain Sensei has left Saito Hitohiro's Shinshin Aiki Shuren Kai and founded his own organization.
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Old 08-28-2007, 04:09 PM   #150
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

This thread has improved! Graham Wild, thanks for your contributions. I don't agree with everything you say, but it is quite refreshing to read your thoughts.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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