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Old 08-27-2007, 05:24 AM   #101
deepsoup
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
This is where the addition of a totally resistant uke in Yoseikan means we get real experience. Personally I believe that cooperation is needed, but only for basics. After that, uke should resist, he should committee to the attack, like you would get in a self defence situation, but he should resist after that, if he can.
I'm curious about those clips above. Its very pretty to watch, in a way that shiai usually isn't (in judo or Shodokan aikido). Also there doesn't appear to be a mat referee. Do you know what the rules are in that kind of competition? There doesn't seem to be 'full resistance' going on there, more a kind of hikitategeiko. (A kind of partial resistance randori, 'cooperative competition' if you like.)

I wouldn't be so sure about characterising a 'self defence situation' as one in which there's a committed attack - feints, exploratory jabs and sneak attacks are equally likely I'd have thought.

Sean
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Old 08-27-2007, 07:05 AM   #102
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Sean Orchard wrote: View Post
I'm curious about those clips above. Its very pretty to watch, in a way that shiai usually isn't (in judo or Shodokan aikido). Also there doesn't appear to be a mat referee. Do you know what the rules are in that kind of competition? There doesn't seem to be 'full resistance' going on there, more a kind of hikitategeiko. (A kind of partial resistance randori, 'cooperative competition' if you like.)

I wouldn't be so sure about characterising a 'self defence situation' as one in which there's a committed attack - feints, exploratory jabs and sneak attacks are equally likely I'd have thought.

Sean
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Hi Sean,

I have no idea about the competition that is in Yoseikan Budo, all I know is Mochizuki Kancho agreed with Jigoro Kano, that competition was an effective means to test your level of ability. But competition should not be organised, which could lead to the emergence of a supreme grand champion... In Yoseikan Aikido we still strive for a balance, you and your partner, not you and your opponent!

About that youtube clip I stated that it was Yoseikan Budo of Hiroo Mochizuki, and it does indeed look like a demonstration and not shiai. You are correct, all shiai will look messy, and this is how I would imaging other styles of Aikido would describe Yoseikan at high levels. Where I would describe some styles of Aikido as very pretty at high levels.

If someone is proficient at the level of feinting and leading with jabs to test your defence, they are not trying to "attack you" they are "fighting you" hence I PERSONALLY don't consider it self defence, to me it is combat. But that is why I teach, kihon, self defence, and combat applications of techniques.

Regards,

Last edited by wildaikido : 08-27-2007 at 07:09 AM.

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Old 08-27-2007, 07:39 AM   #103
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Hi Sean,

I have no idea about the competition that is in Yoseikan Budo, all I know is Mochizuki Kancho agreed with Jigoro Kano, that competition was an effective means to test your level of ability. But competition should not be organised, which could lead to the emergence of a supreme grand champion... In Yoseikan Aikido we still strive for a balance, you and your partner, not you and your opponent!

About that youtube clip I stated that it was Yoseikan Budo of Hiroo Mochizuki, and it does indeed look like a demonstration and not shiai. You are correct, all shiai will look messy, and this is how I would imaging other styles of Aikido would describe Yoseikan at high levels. Where I would describe some styles of Aikido as very pretty at high levels.

If someone is proficient at the level of feinting and leading with jabs to test your defence, they are not trying to "attack you" they are "fighting you" hence I PERSONALLY don't consider it self defence, to me it is combat. But that is why I teach, kihon, self defence, and combat applications of techniques.

Regards,
Love your approach and wish your mindset was more common among the general Aikidoist. It definitely would bring about better training for self defense. The realities of self defense are often over shadow with romanticism of Aikido.
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Old 08-27-2007, 08:53 AM   #104
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Love your approach and wish your mindset was more common among the general Aikidoist. It definitely would bring about better training for self defense. The realities of self defense are often over shadow with romanticism of Aikido.
This is a little bit of a generalisation. I think there are lots of good Aikidoka out there, they are just few and far between. Look at the Yoshinkan, if you go through the senshusei course, you deserve your shodan in a year.

However, the vast amount of @#$% on youtube says that there are a lot of people who have no Budo in there Aikido.

I think it is up to the students of Aikido, student choose the teacher, and you can't teach with out students. I found people I can respect, and who know their stuff, and I go out of my way if I have to seek out a teacher. Don't just settle for the guy down the road, unless he is the one.

Regards,

Last edited by wildaikido : 08-27-2007 at 08:56 AM. Reason: spelling

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Old 08-27-2007, 12:23 PM   #105
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
This is a little bit of a generalisation. I think there are lots of good Aikidoka out there, they are just few and far between. Look at the Yoshinkan, if you go through the senshusei course, you deserve your shodan in a year.

However, the vast amount of @#$% on youtube says that there are a lot of people who have no Budo in there Aikido.

I think it is up to the students of Aikido, student choose the teacher, and you can't teach with out students. I found people I can respect, and who know their stuff, and I go out of my way if I have to seek out a teacher. Don't just settle for the guy down the road, unless he is the one.

Regards,
Oops, you're right, I should've been more specific. I agree with you regarding the majority of the @/*%$E@ that you see on youtube.
Although reading some Aikido sites and blogs you never here the importance of self defense being of great importance, definitely not the focus.

Yes, Yoseikan, Yoshikhan and Shodokan Aikido bring more focus towards self defense, but most Aikidoist either don't know they exist or they are really not respected in the Aikido world due to there heavy focus of combat and self defense.

The Aikikai organization is what most Aikidoist recognize as Aikido, and everything else is not Aikido really. It's a mentality that's the problem. Pacifism is what the Aikikai organizations preach as being Aikido, thus what people perceive as Aikido. So if it does not have the roots of pacifism then is not Aikido, which is totally incorrect.
The original Aikido was combat and for self defense.
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:05 PM   #106
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Oops, you're right, I should've been more specific. I agree with you regarding the majority of the @/*%$E@ that you see on youtube.
Although reading some Aikido sites and blogs you never here the importance of self defense being of great importance, definitely not the focus.
That's were I am lucky, since I am at a Self Defence School. Hence the aim of our Aikido is self defence.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Yes, Yoseikan, Yoshikhan and Shodokan Aikido bring more focus towards self defense, but most Aikidoist either don't know they exist or they are really not respected in the Aikido world due to there heavy focus of combat and self defense.
Well fair is fair, I don't respect some in the Aikikai, of Ki Society (disclaimer, I said SOME, and it is a joke). The facts speak for themselves. O'Sensei spent most of his time in Iwama, not at hombu. Hombu was mostly directed by Kisshomaru and Tohei, and both men had very different ideas about Aikido. This fact is seen in their training and teaching.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
The Aikikai organization is what most Aikidoist recognize as Aikido, and everything else is not Aikido really. It's a mentality that's the problem. Pacifism is what the Aikikai organizations preach as being Aikido, thus what people perceive as Aikido. So if it does not have the roots of pacifism then is not Aikido, which is totally incorrect.
The original Aikido was combat and for self defense.
That is because it has the most members. But more followers does not make it the only Aikido school. I believe Mochizuki Kancho grasped the true concept of Budo. Someone said "for there to be peace, you must prepare for war." The conversation Mochizuki had with O'Sensei after he returned from Japan sums up what O'Sensei thought on the matter. He said that we must train to be strong, but we must not be concerned with winning. Mochizuki Kancho relates this to Darwinism, in that the strong survive and the weak don't. This is also why Mochizuki Kancho promoted the fact that Jigoro Kano did not what his budo turned into an Olympic sport, since the idea of winning and losing is contrary to the principle of mutual welfare and prosperity.

At this point it is worth noting the definition of the term shiai, which Jigoro Kano used. He replaced the old kanji, "to the death" with his modern budo term "to try together". Hence the essence of competition (shiai) in Judo (and Aikido), should be for us to try our techniques together, but in a beneficial way. That is with a resisting partner to test us.

Graham Wild
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Old 08-27-2007, 03:01 PM   #107
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

At this point it is worth noting the definition of the term shiai, which Jigoro Kano used. He replaced the old kanji, "to the death" with his modern budo term "to try together". Hence the essence of competition (shiai) in Judo (and Aikido), should be for us to try our techniques together, but in a beneficial way. That is with a resisting partner to test us.[/quote]

Good example of testing technique.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo
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Old 08-28-2007, 05:38 AM   #108
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
At this point it is worth noting the definition of the term shiai, which Jigoro Kano used. He replaced the old kanji, "to the death" with his modern budo term "to try together". Hence the essence of competition (shiai) in Judo (and Aikido), should be for us to try our techniques together, but in a beneficial way. That is with a resisting partner to test us.
Good example of testing technique.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo[/quote]
Hello
I do like that way of training, at least once and a while.
I do totally agree that sparing, in order to test technique should be done without completion (As in the Olympics judo understanding of competition).

But on the other hand, we need to be aware of the side effect of the rules and promotion of resistance when we use to spar.
It is very obvious with the weapons usage in that last video. Sparing will always be limited by and geared towards by rules that are being used.
This is not a reflection on the participant, the style, the weapon usage or the video in itself, it is a promotional video. Not a sparing video per say but it helps to illustrate my point.

Each time we have the two swords/sticks versus the two handed sword, the practitioner accept a debilitating or killing blow in order to get his technique in.

There seems to be no entering strategy as far as weapon are concerned, (funnily enough this not really the case with open hands), ie they do entrer without concerne for their own safety hence there is no control of the opponent option and they are doing the cardinal sin to extend their hands to break the distance, offering a massive one time counter to your opponent. The best you can expect from entry like that is a double kill.

It is not bad or wrong to spar like that (discounting hands/arm shot or ignoring counters to the entrance), the logic behind it being that it enable the fight to develops pass the sniping/jockeying for position.
But you need to be aware that you are bypassing something that will have definitive consequences in the actual usage of the weapon.

So we need to bear in mind if is it a realistic or meaningful resistance and what we are getting from the resistance

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-28-2007, 06:14 AM   #109
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
but if someone pulls you down, you have to get them off you quick to deal with the next guy. This is where one on one ground work can complement a multiple opponent art like Aikido.
Ive given this a lot of thought as well, and i think i need to try, at least try BJJ solidly for about 6 months or so, just to see how i feel it could compliment my Aikido. If i got took down, i would have no idea what to do, and with over a year three times a week of training for what i joined Aikido for Self Defence, not knowing what do do at all if i go down isn't good enough. Obviously i wouldnt want to fight, let alone go down, but if i do? It's just a case of finding BJJ in particular school near me..time for some googling.

However the idea of giving up one for the other wouldnt make sense. Aikido will give me some chance against more than one person, and a grappling art would help me if i go down. My Aikido wouldnt be good enough for me to avoid possibly going down in a fight for a good 5 or so years? thats too long IMO i would feel comfortable knowing what to do now. In both arts im not going to be standing slugging it out, something i find brutal and uneeded.

I am going to be on the doors in a few months, if all goes to plan, im just thinking sensibly. After reading through a LOT of posts here at Aikiweb, theres seems to be more people practicing Aikido for some other reason, spirituality, improving your inner peace etc other than self defence...im starting to feel ALONE

I would love to speak to someone who has purely Aikido and BJJ expierience though. And no other arts. Would have a lot of questions for them.
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Old 08-28-2007, 06:41 AM   #110
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
I am going to be on the doors in a few months, if all goes to plan, im just thinking sensibly. After reading through a LOT of posts here at Aikiweb, theres seems to be more people practicing Aikido for some other reason, spirituality, improving your inner peace etc other than self defence...im starting to feel ALONE
.
How do you define "self defence"?
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Old 08-28-2007, 07:35 AM   #111
Daniel Ranger-Holt
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Question Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
How do you define "self defence"?
I think you probably know what i mean by self defence, and ive touched a nerve somewhere? didn't intend to IF i did. Look, i'm in an Aikido forum, talking about me learning Aikido for self defence. So it should be fairly obvious what i mean by self defence.

Not running to the phonebox, or carrying a can of pepper spray, carrying a riot sheild etc, smiling at an attacker about to crack me one in the face or running tackle me or the "best self defence is carry a gun" zzzz im not interested in that kind of talk myself, personally.

Im talking about confidently being able to do something effective against someone who attacks me, without hurting anyone needlessly, i dont want to face the law or even the possibillity of going to jail so no punching, striking, etc..

But holding someone till they get the message or deflecting them off me till they get the message is what im looking for. On and off the ground. Im not looking to defeat anyone or any martial artist, because if anyone is good enough, or better than you, its over. But as an average guy with no fighting skills or insticts etc, id like to feel i could do something confidently...

Which is why i am considering BJJ if i find somewhere near me, and it doesnt overlap my Aikido.
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Old 08-28-2007, 07:46 AM   #112
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
But holding someone till they get the message or deflecting them off me till they get the message is what im looking for. On and off the ground. Im not looking to defeat anyone or any martial artist, because if anyone is good enough, or better than you, its over. But as an average guy with no fighting skills or insticts etc, id like to feel i could do something confidently.
This is my definition of self defence. The person must be untrained or you are not defending yourself. If you "defend yourself" against a trained attacker, he will win, as he is attacking, and you are defending! If he is trained you must fight him (If you have not choice, my example would be defending my wife and kids). Therefore this comes under the branch of combat.

I recommend judo. If you can find a good judo instructor, who will teach you techniques and is not focused on competition, this will compliment anyone's Aikido very well. I can only imaging there are a few people like this in England. A lot of the old old great went through England (Tani), and some old great (Abe).

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:05 AM   #113
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Hello
It is really an aside but I think that to be fair if the aim is self defence or self protection you need a striking art and a grappling art. So instead of aikido and BJJ, I would do a striking art and aikido or a striking art and BJJ. (well the BJJ "self defence" side)

All self defence relies on awareness, and that is the stuff that takes the longest time to develop.
I will use BJJ in case of a one to one and aikido when there is several of them is great on paper, however it realise totally on you being aware that there is several of them.
All the point of them being several, is that one of them can blind side you which implies making you believe that it is a one on one is an option.
If you have enough experience, you will be able to pull it off consistently but BJJ and aikido on their distinct value will not increase your awareness more than spending the same amount of time doing only aikido or only BJJ.

Other than one vs one when weapons are not accessed, Going to the ground suck in biblical proportion.
If that is no likely case for you, spending time doing ground works is not a very productive way to spend your time.
It is bit of a sweeping example but if you are a Bouncer/doorman or a woman, ground works does make lots of sense. One vs one can happens a significant % of the possible encounters.

If you are a member of the general public or working in protection (other than doorman) you are more likely to be in a one vs several or several vs several, so ground work is not that attractive of a proposition.

What I just said is absolutely not equivalent to say that BJJ, MMA or any other combat sports are useless in self defence.
In fact they can be quite useful, you are more prepared you have developed a level of awareness, and in good physical condition one v one are your bread and butter, so it can compensate for surprise, you are used to confrontation and you with enough awareness you can turn a one v several into a one v one to give you an options to flee.
As well, aikido in a several vs one situation does not make it good situation, it just make it marginally less worse.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:08 AM   #114
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Straight Face Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
This is my definition of self defence. The person must be untrained or you are not defending yourself.
Hmm i understand your definition but not sure if i agree with it fully. For example i've never been in a street fight in my life. By street fight i mean...my personal definition is...two people fighting for whatever reason, none of them skilled in any arts, just punching kicking human scrapping. But i know a lot of people around my area get into "scraps" every weekend after they have been out drinking or just for a laugh. Random drunks who've had more than one fight...so have some idea what happens, even its a very very basic idea, in that sence they have had more training then me. Mr NO fight at all.

Now, me, i havent had any fights since school, when i was 16 im 28 now. So if i come up against any of the type of people i describe above, i would class that as me defending myself, because in a way they are trained in some form of fighting, as low down the chain as it may be...me, i am not, at all. I may be 5'11 and a big wide dude, but...these people have more expierience than me, and as far as on the street encounters go i respect them (if thats the right word).

Therefore i would say if i face anyone like that, personally, to me...thats self defence. Whereas you say if they are attacking but are untrained, you are not defending yourself? respectfully and humbly i disagree.
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:08 AM   #115
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello
It is really an aside but I think that to be fair if the aim is self defence or self protection you need a striking art and a grappling art. So instead of aikido and BJJ, I would do a striking art and aikido or a striking art and BJJ. (well the BJJ "self defence" side)
Strange! My Aikido is a striking art, I believe O'Sensei's Aikido was a striking art!

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:13 AM   #116
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Therefore i would say if i face anyone like that, personally, to me...thats self defence. Whereas you say if they are attacking but are untrained, you are not defending yourself? respectfully and humbly i disagree.
No, if they are UNTRAINED and ATTACKING it is self defence. If they are TRAINED and attacking, the mentality of defending will not be enough, you must FIGHT.

That is how I differentiate them; it is in the mental attitude, the approach, and the tactics.

A trained person attacking will overwhelm you if you "defend", you must have the superior spirit!

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:20 AM   #117
Daniel Ranger-Holt
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello
It is bit of a sweeping example but if you are a Bouncer/doorman or a woman, ground works does make lots of sense. One vs one can happens a significant % of the possible encounters.

If you are a member of the general public or working in protection (other than doorman) you are more likely to be in a one vs several or several vs several, so ground work is not that attractive of a proposition.
Thanks Philippe! its why i am considering BJJ. in reality of course some people suggest to me Aikido and Judo, Aikido and Wing Chun even, some have said Aikido and Sambo (something i havent looked into really) So everyone has something different, my personal so far...most sensible crosstrain option for me would be BJJ i think. If my Aikido taught me ground work i feel i would have no need, but it doesn't i would feel exposed. So it still seems like some kind of ground control would be good for me...but as i say, everyone says something different to cross train with. I guess its best to look into them all but actively try the one i feel would suit me personally. But its a interesting discussion, thanks guys.

I will be back later to contribute, my daughter is dragging me off the pc to the park

Cheers.
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:43 AM   #118
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Strange! My Aikido is a striking art, I believe O'Sensei's Aikido was a striking art!
Regards,
Good for you! Unfortunately, not every dojo has a strong focus on delivering and defending against functional strikes. If this is the case for Daniel, then I think there's great value for him in crosstraining at least a little in boxing/kickboxing/muay thai; basically any straight forward striking art where you have to deal with actually getting hit in the face on a regular basis.

Last edited by thomanil : 08-28-2007 at 08:47 AM.

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Old 08-28-2007, 08:50 AM   #119
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Thanks Philippe! its why i am considering BJJ. in reality of course some people suggest to me Aikido and Judo, Aikido and Wing Chun even, some have said Aikido and Sambo (something i havent looked into really) So everyone has something different, my personal so far...most sensible crosstrain option for me would be BJJ i think. If my Aikido taught me ground work i feel i would have no need, but it doesn't i would feel exposed. So it still seems like some kind of ground control would be good for me...but as i say, everyone says something different to cross train with. I guess its best to look into them all but actively try the one i feel would suit me personally. But its a interesting discussion, thanks guys.

I will be back later to contribute, my daughter is dragging me off the pc to the park

Cheers.
You are not alone. I feel the same way. I'm more interested in self defense and the common mentality among most Aikidoist is spirituality or some deep inner meaning, which I have no interest. I'm not interest in Shinto Oomoto in the least bit and it's really a turn off to here about religion and Aikido mixing. I already have religion and don't want to here about philosophical religious principles.
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:59 AM   #120
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
I
Not running to the phonebox, or carrying a can of pepper spray, carrying a riot sheild etc, smiling at an attacker about to crack me one in the face or running tackle me or the "best self defence is carry a gun" zzzz im not interested in that kind of talk myself, personally.

Im talking about confidently being able to do something effective against someone who attacks me, without hurting anyone needlessly, i dont want to face the law or even the possibillity of going to jail so no punching, striking, etc..
.
Hello Daniel,
It really deepens of what job you are doing but using aikido has about the same chance of putting you into jail than striking or punching.

In most western country, it is not what you did but why you did it that will matter as far as the law is concerned.
Of course, our response needs to be proportionate to the threat but we have ruled out weapons in the question, so it has little bearing here.

You are using the example of pinning someone, or deflecting someone until they get the message.
By not removing your self, you de facto engage in a consensual fight. In most countries, the law expect you to get away from trouble when possible.
You can have good reason not to remove yourself, like presence of witness, closed circuit camera, and lighted area and so on. That is what is going to keep you out of trouble not the usage of aikido (in that case).

Hence you will need to be able to answer why you keep deflecting the guy instead of going away.

Law enforcement usually tends to assume that the guy that has the upper hand was the instigator of the fight. at the best it is going to be 50-50.

So pinning him may be a solution, but that he was the instigator still has to be demonstrated.

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
But holding someone till they get the message or deflecting them off me till they get the message is what im looking for. On and off the ground. Im not looking to defeat anyone or any martial artist, because if anyone is good enough, or better than you, its over. But as an average guy with no fighting skills or insticts etc, id like to feel I could do something confidently...

Which is why i am considering BJJ if i find somewhere near me, and it doesnt overlap my Aikido.
I think this is the biggest misconception about self defence/self protection.

It is not very likely to be a booting match or a challenge.
If it is the case, you are very likely to be able to walk away from it. Unless confronted with someone relatively drunk and without any mates in the same states (but in that case any martial art or combat sport will do, bearing in mind the reasonable force).

How possible and at what frequency depends where you are living.

It is very likely to be "Martial" almost in the etymological meaning of the word.
Your opponent (s) , like you will be, without fighting skills or instincts so they will try to get as many chance on their side before it starts. (If they have fighting skill, they will want to reduce your response time to the minimum).
Basically they/he will try to break the distance and capture you attention.

Basically it is much more likely to kick in at talking range than with " oy, you, me, now on the common, handbag at two paces

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:06 AM   #121
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Strange! My Aikido is a striking art, I believe O'Sensei's Aikido was a striking art!

Regards,
well mine as well, however it is not the case for all us. :-)

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:15 AM   #122
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
You are not alone. I feel the same way. I'm more interested in self defense and the common mentality among most Aikidoist is spirituality or some deep inner meaning, which I have no interest. I'm not interest in Shinto Oomoto in the least bit and it's really a turn off to here about religion and Aikido mixing. I already have religion and don't want to here about philosophical religious principles.
I would argue that take down and pin in aikido constitute as much ground work as reasonably possible in a multy opponent environment.
That seems the to be the same in medieval European wrestling, outside judicial duel, several vs several (or one vs several), usually with weapons availiabe, seems to have been the most likely situation for them as well.

PS and they say as well that if you (being knights in that occurrence), are attacked by 4 or 6 peasants, running away is the best option….(and that there is no shame to do it)

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:30 AM   #123
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

I can garantee if you do something like a wrist twsit (Kote Gaeshi) on me (any throw), and I go down, you will not pin me with an Aikikai based pin. You want even turn me over! Now I am trained and will resist. Once I am on the floor, I will not let go of you. Start hitting or kicking, your coming down to the floor with me.

So from here, what do you plan to do when "my" friends are coming for you?

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:26 AM   #124
Aiki1
 
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
I would love to speak to someone who has purely Aikido and BJJ expierience though. And no other arts. Would have a lot of questions for them.
I have taught Aikido for 25 years, and studied BJJ privately with the guy who taught for Rickson, for a few years. I have studied other stuff over the years, but not for a while now. Aikido is my art, but I love BJJ and have incorporated just the ground escapes into my style. Not any submissions, but how to get out/away.

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:31 AM   #125
Daniel Ranger-Holt
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Hmmm, ok, i dont think im explaining myself very well. Surely having some kind of grappling ability is a plus, if i am looking for straight self defence as opposed to having none.

Im not looking to be the supreme martial artist, im just saying if a confrontation was to go to the ground, with the Aikido training i am receiving i wouldnt know what to do. Which is the same for most Aikidoka?

This is why having some idea what to do on the ground would be to my advantage. Im not talking about an arm pin on a non resisting opponent i mean a scrabbling unco-operative brawler.

In reality i probably wont cross train, one the expense, two i wouldn't want to do anything unless i could do it twice a week. That would mean four nights a week martial arts, a daughter i have three days a week, and a demanding girlfriend. In reality i wouldnt really be able to fit it in, unless the classes were convienient.

Maybe training on how to not go down if grappled is what i would need. But still BJJ looks like the best option IF i was to cross train.

Phillipe can you explain my mis conception about self defense because i didn't understand what it was, cheers.

Good discussion.
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