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Old 08-27-2007, 01:20 PM   #1
gregg block
 
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Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

I'm in my second year training in AIkido after 20 years in Tae-Kwon-Do, boxing and Kickboxing. I am perplexed by the web sights we are directed to that say they are showing some type of "Aikido" (eg. you Tube) .When in fact they are not Aikido at all. Sometimes they resemble some type of Karate and sometimes I dont know what they are just what they are not. I don't see this with Tae-kwon-do. boxing or kickboxing. I may see some bad Practitioners of the three but at least they resemble what they say they are, I know I'm fortunate to be in a good Aikido school and I am thankful for that but what gives with all the confusion out there? And why does Aikido get such a rap out there of being ineffective?
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:44 PM   #2
Daniel Ranger-Holt
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Hmmm on why it gets a bad rep for being effective, i think its mostly down to the demonstrations and what those people who think it is ineffective, would define as a fighting martial art. Because Aikido isn't a fighting martial art, how you would instantly think of fighting. Its not as visually impressive as a cool Wing Chun video or Kung Fu, hands on wrestling. So to the average person making these commenrs i would guess mostly teens looking on you tube or seeing Aikido once, because the demonstrations have willing uke it doesnt seem that effective. Even wikipedia picked up on this critisism which i found interesting. This is why i think it gets the rep, an art designed to blend with an attacker and not even get to a one on one fighting stage to most people, isn't going to look impressive, its tho who appreciate the push pull going with the force/enegery who see its potential and understand.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:20 PM   #3
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Gregg Block wrote: View Post
what gives with all the confusion out there? And why does Aikido get such a rap out there of being ineffective?
IMHO, ignorance.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:55 PM   #4
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Gregg Block wrote: View Post
I'm in my second year training in AIkido after 20 years in Tae-Kwon-Do, boxing and Kickboxing. I am perplexed by the web sights we are directed to that say they are showing some type of "Aikido" (eg. you Tube) .When in fact they are not Aikido at all. Sometimes they resemble some type of Karate and sometimes I dont know what they are just what they are not. I don't see this with Tae-kwon-do. boxing or kickboxing. I may see some bad Practitioners of the three but at least they resemble what they say they are, I know I'm fortunate to be in a good Aikido school and I am thankful for that but what gives with all the confusion out there? And why does Aikido get such a rap out there of being ineffective?
I've noticed that for certain videos on youtube, the same video has different martial arts ascribed to it. The internet is very often the lowest common denominator and so you get many incorrect labels, not to mention assertions. Also, Aikido is a pretty big group of people, and I think the art is quite subtle, leading to a case of diverging opinions and points of focus...not unlike the parable of the three blind men who touched different parts of the elephant.
As for effectiveness, I know my first observations of Aikido were skeptical...and that was watching the dojo I currently train in, which I now think is highly effective.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-27-2007, 03:41 PM   #5
crbateman
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Things, memories of things, applications of things, interpretations of things, opinions of things, teaching of things, all morph over time. It's human nature. Some of it is good, some not. Some of it is accurate, some not. What is important is what you do with it... And that's up to you.
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:15 AM   #6
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

I am not confused at all....

No....Really....

William Hazen
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:00 AM   #7
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I am not confused at all....

No....Really....

William Hazen
LOL

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 06:49 PM   #8
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I am not confused at all....

No....Really....

William Hazen
I hope that someday I too will have such clarity. Until then I will have to continue to question things.
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:17 PM   #9
Mark Uttech
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

I've said this in another recent thread, and I'll say it again: I do hope YouTube is a shortlived fad.

In gassho

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:44 PM   #10
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

My fav is when people refer to YouTube as 'evidence' of a MA being effective or not.

What's next? Do we have to refer to blooper videos of getting hit in the nuts with a wiffle ball to know that groin strikes are effective?


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Old 08-28-2007, 10:41 PM   #11
Jess McDonald
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

I like youtube...
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:37 PM   #12
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Like, the UFC before it "you tube" is probably one of the best things to happen to martial arts in our time.

It brings things out into the light. You can much more readily find someone doing the martial art you are interested in, and see how it looks.

You don't have to invest thousands of dollars to travel to Japan to get an idea of what's going on there. You no longer have to search for pricey videos to catch a glimpse of some master you've heard about.

The only ones "You Tube" is bad for are the charlatans. Those who wish to rob you of your money and dignity, teaching you something that they know nothing about. I can think of a few off the top of my head who refuse to post videos for this very reason.

Sure there are lots of 22 year old "shihan" running around youtube saying this foolish thing or that. But if you're a discerning adult with some common sense you should be able to pick that out and let it roll off your back.

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Old 08-29-2007, 09:26 AM   #13
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

[quote=Chris Hein;187997]Like, the UFC before it "you tube" is probably one of the best things to happen to martial arts in our time.I dont know about that but is sure can be entertaining
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:17 AM   #14
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
I've said this in another recent thread, and I'll say it again: I do hope YouTube is a shortlived fad.

In gassho

Mark
No, never, you can't take you tube away from me, all the funny videos (not just Aikido), the people with the transforming costumes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akNJ6S2UqsE

It is cool! NOOOOOO!!!!!

Graham Wild
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:41 AM   #15
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
My fav is when people refer to YouTube as 'evidence' of a MA being effective or not.

What's next? Do we have to refer to blooper videos of getting hit in the nuts with a wiffle ball to know that groin strikes are effective?

Ha! Nice!

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 08-29-2007, 01:20 PM   #16
Aikibu
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
Ha! Nice!
Amen...You Tube is no different than any other Visual Media. It has it's place... can be informative... and entertaining...but I would caution anyone about suspending thier intellect and accepting what they "see" at face value just because it was posted on You Tube...(Ahem... The recent Haitian UFO "sighting" comes to mind LOL)

Hopefully these fools will come back to thier senses and stop thinking You Tube is the be all end all of "Visual Proof"

Some posters at other so called No BS Martial Arts Websites have built thier entire resume of Junior G-Man Detective Skills on the "proof" offered by You Tube.

The best thing to do is show up and get into action and "clear" up any confusion one may have about Aikido.

Seminars like Stan Pranin's Aikido Friendship Demo's where he invites Martial Artists of all types to demonstrate thier flavors of Aiki (Aikido is not the only Martial Art with "Aki" you know) are another excellent way to clear up any confusion too... and to experiance first hand what works.... and.... what doesn't.

Keep an open mind... ask allot of questions....experiance "it" for yourself and explore....

William Hazen
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Old 08-29-2007, 01:23 PM   #17
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Very nicely put, Mr. Hazen.
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Old 08-29-2007, 02:19 PM   #18
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Gregg Block:

There is confusion about Aikido because there will always be people who support it, and people who oppose it. Things need to be left alone. Kinda how you don't need to go into a forest ecosystem and make sure all the wolves eat the rabbits, and the birds eat the etc and etc. You either do Aikido and believe in it, or you do something else. You don't listen to what people say about one or the other, you experience for yourself.

Kind of like how I have moved on to MMA, while my younger brother is in Aikido. I'm not too fussed. Give people time and they'll continue moving gradually closer to what they want.
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Old 08-29-2007, 04:41 PM   #19
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

YouTube has it's place in keeping the martial arts business honest, but it's neither comprehensive nor entirely honest. Caveat emptor...

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
I've said this in another recent thread, and I'll say it again: I do hope YouTube is a shortlived fad.
Sorry to say, but the YouTube concept (i.e. the general public being able to post on the internet video footage w/o corporate and/or government interference) is here to stay...even if it's not YouTube proper (e.g. anyone remember Kazaa or Napster in their haydays of the mid-90's?). Ever since Google bought them out, who knows what'll happen.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Like, the UFC before it "you tube" is probably one of the best things to happen to martial arts in our time.
It brings things out into the light. You can much more readily find someone doing the martial art you are interested in, and see how it looks. You don't have to invest thousands of dollars to travel to Japan to get an idea of what's going on there. You no longer have to search for pricey videos to catch a glimpse of some master you've heard about.

The only ones "You Tube" is bad for are the charlatans. Those who wish to rob you of your money and dignity, teaching you something that they know nothing about. I can think of a few off the top of my head who refuse to post videos for this very reason.
Absolutely. YouTube has literally destroyed the careers of martial arts charlatans (e.g. George Dillman, Coda Scott, Ashida Kim or that infamous bald kiai master who had his ass handed to him). Rightfully so, in my opinion. Too bad Mark Tennenhouse's footage at Aiki Expo 2005 didn't get on there...(anyone remember Mark Tennenhouse or his blogs at Aikido Journal?).

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Amen...You Tube is no different than any other Visual Media. It has it's place... can be informative... and entertaining...but I would caution anyone about suspending thier intellect and accepting what they "see" at face value just because it was posted on You Tube...(Ahem... The recent Haitian UFO "sighting" comes to mind LOL)

Hopefully these fools will come back to thier senses and stop thinking You Tube is the be all end all of "Visual Proof"

Some posters at other so called No BS Martial Arts Websites have built thier entire resume of Junior G-Man Detective Skills on the "proof" offered by You Tube.

The best thing to do is show up and get into action and "clear" up any confusion one may have about Aikido.

Seminars like Stan Pranin's Aikido Friendship Demo's where he invites Martial Artists of all types to demonstrate thier flavors of Aiki (Aikido is not the only Martial Art with "Aki" you know) are another excellent way to clear up any confusion too... and to experiance first hand what works.... and.... what doesn't.

Keep an open mind... ask allot of questions....experiance "it" for yourself and explore....

William Hazen
So mote it be! This perfectly sums up the obvious negatives of the Youtube concept.

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
...Give people time and they'll continue moving gradually closer to what they want.
On this rare occasion, I agree with Roman. Aikido is not for everyone.

Last edited by Dewey : 08-29-2007 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 08-29-2007, 05:08 PM   #20
Aikibu
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Brian,

I was in the thick of the Mark Tennenhouse dustup. Challenged him to come to L.A. Went to the Aikido Friendship Demo in L.A. to bust his chops Got "beaten to the punch" George Ledyard Sensei who "got the drop" on him (Sorry George I couldn't resist. ) Met Toby Threadgill, Ellis Amdur, George Knock em out Ledyard, James Williams and a host of other awesome practicioners.

None of the Tennenhouse stuff made it on You Tube and it did not matter one bit. Because at a Demo the mustard gets on the hotdog.

I agree that fools like Ashida Kim got outed because of You Tube but for every Fake there are dozens of legitimate Martial Artists whose techniques get trashed on You Tube by some Psuedo-Expert Martial Arts Master of Video Kata

I do hope that these "specialists" bring it down a notch and realize not to completely trust your eyes.... unless ( as I always tell my students)....You're looking up at the sky (or down at the ground... Mix at match your own quotes!!! It's fun!!!!) with a headache after you blinked. LOL That there is whats we call the ultimate proof.

I'll take Ukemi over You-Tube anyday.

Respectfully,

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 08-29-2007 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 08-29-2007, 06:29 PM   #21
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I was in the thick of the Mark Tennenhouse dustup. Challenged him to come to L.A. Went to the Aikido Friendship Demo in L.A. to bust his chops Got "beaten to the punch" George Ledyard Sensei who "got the drop" on him (Sorry George I couldn't resist. ) Met Toby Threadgill, Ellis Amdur, George Knock em out Ledyard, James Williams and a host of other awesome practicioners.
And stories to tell.
BTW, unfortunately it was my "deadly jabs" that did finally get some air play. God, I suck.
And if Pranin does it again (which I don't think he will), I will be there.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-30-2007, 06:46 AM   #22
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Brian,

I was in the thick of the Mark Tennenhouse dustup. Challenged him to come to L.A. Went to the Aikido Friendship Demo in L.A. to bust his chops Got "beaten to the punch" George Ledyard Sensei who "got the drop" on him (Sorry George I couldn't resist. ) Met Toby Threadgill, Ellis Amdur, George Knock em out Ledyard, James Williams and a host of other awesome practicioners.

None of the Tennenhouse stuff made it on You Tube and it did not matter one bit. Because at a Demo the mustard gets on the hotdog.

I agree that fools like Ashida Kim got outed because of You Tube but for every Fake there are dozens of legitimate Martial Artists whose techniques get trashed on You Tube by some Psuedo-Expert Martial Arts Master of Video Kata

I do hope that these "specialists" bring it down a notch and realize not to completely trust your eyes.... unless ( as I always tell my students)....You're looking up at the sky (or down at the ground... Mix at match your own quotes!!! It's fun!!!!) with a headache after you blinked. LOL That there is whats we call the ultimate proof.

I'll take Ukemi over You-Tube anyday.

Respectfully,

William Hazen
William,

I see your point, and thanks for the insight. It is indeed true that we have enough armchair experts in the martial arts world, and YouTube has become that means. If I spoke out-of-turn concerning the Tennenhouse affair, I sincerely apologize. All's that I knew of it was what I pieced together through various forums.

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
And stories to tell.
BTW, unfortunately it was my "deadly jabs" that did finally get some air play. God, I suck.
And if Pranin does it again (which I don't think he will), I will be there.
Lynn,

Ditto concerning the Tennenhouse issue.
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Old 08-30-2007, 08:29 AM   #23
Aikibu
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

No worries Brian. You did not speak out of turn at all regarding that Tennenhouse Cat.

William Hazen
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Old 08-30-2007, 08:34 AM   #24
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Which is actually related to this thread, because some of the confusion I see in the aikido world (well, martial arts in general) is related to the difference between paying lip service to doing or talking about being able to do something versus actually being able to do it or actually training to be able to do it.
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Old 08-30-2007, 11:19 AM   #25
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Why there is so much confusion about aikido?

Ask questions like
Are punches/kick knew elbows head butt, aka atemi, integral part of aikido?
Is breaking you opponent ethical?

And you will see why.

People practice different variation of aikido according to what they want to achieve with it.
It all has it place and it is good to train once and a while in the versions you do not follow, there is a good chance that you will get something relevant to what you do even if is not the same version.

Phil

Ps you tube is the proof that there no such thing as video evidence. Luckily ashida kin and the other master of their own world have not yet become savvy with photo editing and script fighting.
But well since it easier to learn how to use a movie editing suite and choreograph fight than it is to actually produce the good, we should not despair, we will have soon good looking video of "those who have been trained in the secret art of <insert art > by the old man on the mountain"

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