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Old 01-22-2007, 07:58 PM   #76
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Ask Segal a question

Kevin,

I am really surprised at how muddled your thinking has been on this thread. I have seen you post many logical and sensible things about martial arts, but you don't seem to be able to apply those same skills to this subject. What you have posted makes no sense whatsoever. It is not just a weak analogy, it is a completely irrelevant comparison and a complete misinterpretation of what I am arguing.

Hypocrisy is about claiming to be one thing and then being the opposite. It does not seem like you understand this concept. I am claiming that Seagal exhibits hypocrisy because he claims to be a man of humility and compassion yet gets rich from an activity that glorifies the opposite of both and ultimately serves exactly the opposite purpose. This criticism has nothing to do with whether I favor war or peace, humility or egotism.

Now, if I claimed to be dedicated to compassion towards animals and then turned around and ate meat, then you might be able to correctly call me a hypocrite. If I talked extensively about how I was all about compassion for animals in public interviews, then turned around and got rich from steak advertisements, then I would be just like Stephen Seagal...
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:18 PM   #77
Rich Stephens
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Re: Ask Segal a question

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
If I talked extensively about how I was all about compassion for animals in public interviews, then turned around and got rich from steak advertisements, then I would be just like Stephen Seagal...
Sorry, but this is not analogous at all. Seagal's movies are not advertisements for any particular behavior. They are fairytales. Maybe he simply has more faith than you do in mankind's ability to realize that low budget hollywood action films are fantasy and that in the real world people should behave differently. I believe movies can have some impact, but I also think you are grossly overstating the harm that could be caused by these movies.
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:50 PM   #78
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Ask Segal a question

Quote:
Rich Stephens wrote:
Sorry, but this is not analogous at all. Seagal's movies are not advertisements for any particular behavior. They are fairytales. Maybe he simply has more faith than you do in mankind's ability to realize that low budget hollywood action films are fantasy and that in the real world people should behave differently. I believe movies can have some impact, but I also think you are grossly overstating the harm that could be caused by these movies.
Sorry, but it is analogous. The analogy may be weaker than I think but saying not at all is simply a false statement. Second, the films are not fairytales, they are relatively naturalistic dramas with exaggerated stunts. Another false statement. Third, whether people are deluding into thinking the films are not fictional is beside the point. No part of my argument stated or implied that. This is a Straw Man.

I said that the ways in which violence is glamourized in this type of movie has an influence on people's attitudes. This is not even controversial. Collections of moving images with sound obviously do influence people's behavior and attitudes, as attested by the billions of dollars corporations spend on television advertisements to precisely that end. You think all those exceedingly rich people got that way by blowing billions on something that doesn't work? I have made a case that revenge fantasy movies like Seagal's do function as advertisements for a certain type of fetishistic attitude toward violence and the dehumanization of enemies, and hence I contend that the analogy is strong. In rebuttal you've offered nothing but misdirection and fallacy.

Finally, the overall arc of my argument really has nothing to do with whether or how effectively revenge movies like Seagal's actually effect people's attitudes and behavior. All this is beside the point. The main point is that these movies are not jokes in the sense of a Saturday Night Live skit, where the content of what they are about and what they portray can be laughed off. In them, Seagal is playing a serious persona and embodying precisely the attributes and behaviors he claims to be against in real life. It's contradictory. I really don't see why you are all flailing so desperately to deny this.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 01-22-2007 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:54 PM   #79
Neil Mick
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Re: Ask Segal a question

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
To start with, the movies are all contrived revenge fantasies - what I would characterize as violence porn. I don't see how they are bringing people "happiness and joy," as he says. The stories all start with a character or characters doing horrible graphically violent things to presumably innocent people, which renders them demonic and sub-human to the viewer. Once they are safely cast as less than human, Seagal proceeds to brutalize and torture them to death and the audience is enabled to get off on the vengeful spectacle with a clear conscience.

I don't see anything remotely Aikido-esque or Buddhist about these movies.

Seagal got rich and famous from making them. He then used this ill-begotten wealth and privilege to lead a glamourous lifestyle of wearing gold lemay suits, flying in private jets, dating movie stars, and attending hollywood red-carpet parties.

Another disturbing aspect of his movies is the extreme grandiosity of Seagal's characters.
OK, whoah. I think you all are missing a point, here.

And, all due respect to you, Kevin, I am only starting in on you because you're the most accessable. In point of fact, I agree with your issues on the kinds of movies he makes. Yes, they ARE violent, formulaic odes to misplaced masculinity, that ONE man can get ONE bad guy, get that ONE girl who worships the mud on his feet, etc, ad nauseum.

But, come on! Let's be real, here. Steven Seagal did not create the formula, or the genre (I mean, if you want to talk about venal actors who used their box-office acumen to vault their public position: Seagal's peanuts, compared to the likes of Schwartzenneger. ). He's one of several MA's/MA-wannabee's who used their acting skill to make a good life for himself.

Should we spit on Keanu Reeves for "suddenly" finding Buddhism, after he played in "Kundun?" Or, for all the violence he "advocated" in the Matrix, Speed, etc?

No, the point is absurd, because Reeves doesn't write the scripts in Hollywood, any more than Seagal does. The Hollywood culture is, in some ways, an ugly mirror of our excesses: but it IS us, nonetheless.

And while I might agree that Seagal's lifestyle is hardly that of a Tibetan monk, still...you seem to be putting the all the wrongs and excesses of Hollywood lifestyle on Seagal's shoulders.

That's quite a lot of scorn to point at just one man.

Also, I was struck by this in the link:

Quote:
As for Steven Seagal's movie career, my concern is with the qualities I experienced within him which relate to his potential for benefiting others and not with the conventional details of his life which are wholly secondary. Some people think that because Steven Seagal is always acting in violent movies, how can he be a true Buddhist? Such movies are for temporary entertainment and do not relate to what is real and important. It is the view of the Great Vehicle of Buddhism that compassionate beings take rebirth in all walks of life to help others. Any life condition can be used to serve beings and thus, from this point of view, it is possible to be both a popular movie star and a tulku. There is no inherent contradiction in this possibility.
So, what Rimpoche is saying is that he sees a lot of potential in Seagal...irrespective of his lifestyle.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 01-22-2007 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 01-22-2007, 10:45 PM   #80
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Ask Segal a question

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
But, come on! Let's be real, here. Steven Seagal did not create the formula, or the genre (I mean, if you want to talk about venal actors who used their box-office acumen to vault their public position: Seagal's peanuts, compared to the likes of Schwartzenneger. ). He's one of several MA's/MA-wannabee's who used their acting skill to make a good life for himself.

Should we spit on Keanu Reeves for "suddenly" finding Buddhism, after he played in "Kundun?" Or, for all the violence he "advocated" in the Matrix, Speed, etc?

No, the point is absurd, because Reeves doesn't write the scripts in Hollywood, any more than Seagal does. The Hollywood culture is, in some ways, an ugly mirror of our excesses: but it IS us, nonetheless.

....And while I might agree that Seagal's lifestyle is hardly that of a Tibetan monk, still...you seem to be putting the all the wrongs and excesses of Hollywood lifestyle on Seagal's shoulders.

That's quite a lot of scorn to point at just one man.
The first part: a) Straw Man fallacy, b) Two Wrongs Make a Right fallacy, c) Weak Analogy fallacy. a) I never argued that Seagal created the genre or wrote the movies and it has nothing to do with my thesis. He only needs to participate in an activity that is glaringly antithetical to his purported ideals to be a hypocrite. Being an inventor or high-level orchestrator of that activity is not required. b) Other people doing something wrong does not make him doing it less wrong. Being one among many is no excuse. c) The other people in question aren't doing the same thing anyway. I can't think of any other actor who has made his career on revenge fantasies that postures as a humble man of compassion, least of all...

Schwarzenegger and Reeves: Weak Analogies. Schwarzenegger, to my knowledge, has never gone on in interviews about being a humble man dedicated to compassion. Reeves has made a wide variety of movies. His entire movie career is not exclusively made up of violent movies, and in fact, none of the popular ones fit the
Deathwish/Dirty Harry revenge fantasy model. Also, to my knowledge, though he has become a buddhist, he hasn't gone on in interviews about being a humble man dedicated to the alleviation of suffering and so forth. Neither of these attempted analogies has much to do with Seagal.

The final part is also a Straw Man. However what I said "seems" to you, the interpretation you have presented is wildly inaccurate. I did not say that Seagal is the worst, most excessive person in Hollywood, or anything remotely like that. You are welcome to your personal impressions, just don't attribute them to me.
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Old 01-22-2007, 11:15 PM   #81
Neil Mick
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Re: Ask Segal a question

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
The first part: a) Straw Man fallacy, b) Two Wrongs Make a Right fallacy, c) Weak Analogy fallacy. a) I never argued that Seagal created the genre or wrote the movies and it has nothing to do with my thesis.
OK, sir...put dowwwwwn the analogy textbook....step AWAAAY from the blackboard...!!

Frankly, Kevin: if you're out on some sort of crusade: more power to ya. But, I'm not interested in your "thesis:" I'm interested in some of your ideas, and I expressed a few of my own.

It's called a "discussion." Now, if you're planning on dominating the debate with your "thesis..." Well...all I can say is: too bad, for us! But, generally: a discussion follows a flow. And, I was adding something to the flow, to broaden the pespective.

It's sort of off-putting when you announce your impressions of others thoughts as if they're some sort of logical fallacy. Not to mention, out of context.

Quote:
He only needs to participate in an activity that is glaringly antithetical to his purported ideals to be a hypocrite.
That's your call...and a moralistic one it is, at that. It certainly isn't my call, or the call of other post'ers, here.

I guess that makes us all moral slackers, right, Kevin? Oh, it must be so LONELY at the top!!

Quote:
Being an inventor or high-level orchestrator of that activity is not required.
So, you're suggesting that Leni Riefenstahl is as bad as Goebbels?

Quote:
b) Other people doing something wrong does not make him doing it less wrong. Being one among many is no excuse. c) The other people in question aren't doing the same thing anyway. I can't think of any other actor who has made his career on revenge fantasies that postures as a humble man of compassion, least of all...

Schwarzenegger and Reeves: Weak Analogies. Schwarzenegger, to my knowledge, has never gone on in interviews about being a humble man dedicated to compassion.
Oh, really? I guess that you don't follow the news very much, then. He posited himself as as "man of the people," unconnected with the machinations of Washington...conveniently omitting his clandestine meetings with Ken Lay.

Or what about Dolph Lundgren's role in the hideous Red Scorpion, financed by Israeli lobby money, written by...you guessed it...Jack Abramoff? If you want venality and evil writ from the big screen: look no further. Sure, I would think that Seagal shouldn't be proud of his acting career: but in perspective, he's hardly the worst of the worst.

Now here's where you yell "logical fallacy! Strawman! Ad nauseum"

Quote:
Reeves has made a wide variety of movies. His entire movie career is not exclusively made up of violent movies, and in fact, none of the popular ones fit the
Deathwish/Dirty Harry revenge fantasy model.
Oh, so that lets him off the hook, right...? Some might call that an...*cough*...'apologist strawman!'...*cough, cough!*

Hey, did someone say something?

Quote:
Also, to my knowledge, though he has become a buddhist, he hasn't gone on in interviews about being a humble man dedicated to the alleviation of suffering and so forth. Neither of these attempted analogies has much to do with Seagal.
So, Seagal is REALLY evil because he goes on interviews, and makes those claims? Oooh, get the stake and some kindling!!

No, Kevin: at worst, it makes him a hypocrit.

Quote:
The final part is also a Straw Man.
Um...psst...Kevin...ya gotta prove they're strawman. Just you saying so, means jackall. Just thought you'd wanna know...

Quote:
However what I said "seems" to you, the interpretation you have presented is wildly inaccurate.
"wildly?" *scratches head* Do you practice this stuff in front of a mirror? I bet it sounds good, read out loud.

Perhaps I'll try it (if my roomates will let me, lol).

Quote:
I did not say that Seagal is the worst, most excessive person in Hollywood, or anything remotely like that.
No you didn't, you didn't say he was the worst. But the sum of your critiques are centered upon his lifestyle, and what he says in public interviews.

In effect, you lay your scorn at the feet of his public persona. And, in doing so you're attacking the man's lifestyle, which is reflective of the lifestyles of all Hollywood.

You might as well attack all of Hollywood culture. A reasonable thing, but don't lay it all on one person.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 01-22-2007 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 01-22-2007, 11:46 PM   #82
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Ask Segal a question

That's quite a load of emotive crap there, Neil. If you want to prevail by a war of dissecting attrition and personal derision, have at it.

I think your attempt to belittle me for holding arguments to standards of basic logic is disingenuous. It makes perfect sense to call fallacious arguments out for what they are when someone is attacking a postion one has just stated. It also makes perfect sense to be embarassed when one puts out arguments hoping to sound smart, and they are easily shown to be irrelevant or fallacious. I suspect that now you're trying to save face by pulling some kind of aw shucks Will Rogers schtick to ridicule me and play to the crowd. "Wouldn't it be great to be the iceman?" etc...

I really have no interest in that game. I started participating in this thread because I had a point to make. I continued because it was maligned with all manner of misinterpretation and fallacy. My interest here is intellectual, not to get into some kind of cutesy popularity contest. I won't be dignifying another convoluted post full of mockery like the one above from you with a response ever again.
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Old 01-23-2007, 12:19 AM   #83
Guilty Spark
 
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Re: Ask Segal a question

Quote:
So, if you eat meat, should I say that you are a hypocrite and unworthy of my approval and approval of society?
I hope not. I'm a steak eating monster heh

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
OK, sir...put dowwwwwn the analogy textbook....step AWAAAY from the blackboard...!!
You're feeling that way too eh? No doubt a shortcoming on my behalf but I can't even get 5 lines into his post without getting confused.

Good posts Neil & Kevin L , I think you're fighting a loosing battle though.

With regards to deep intellectual violence exploring the repercussions of it vs flashy beat someone up save the day violence as seen in SS I think the former is more dangerous.
While everyone may see a SS movie and get a cheap thrill out of seeing the bad guy beaten up, I think the former appeals to more deranged individuals who run the risk of seeing this profound (for lack of a better word) sense of violence and mimicking it themselves. It appeals to them much more connecting with them.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 01-23-2007, 12:34 AM   #84
Neil Mick
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Re: Ask Segal a question

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
I started participating in this thread because I had a point to make.
Clearly. Well, ehm, carry on with your mission, then! Forward, ho!

Um, wake me up when its time to pillory Stevie in effigy, OK?

Quote:
My interest here is intellectual,
And with intellect, comes ego.

Quote:
I won't be dignifying another convoluted post full of mockery like the one above from you with a response ever again.
Oh, woe! What shall I ever do?

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
You're feeling that way too eh? No doubt a shortcoming on my behalf but I can't even get 5 lines into his post without getting confused.

Good posts Neil & Kevin L , I think you're fighting a loosing battle though.
Yeah, probably so.

Quote:
With regards to deep intellectual violence exploring the repercussions of it vs flashy beat someone up save the day violence as seen in SS I think the former is more dangerous.
While everyone may see a SS movie and get a cheap thrill out of seeing the bad guy beaten up, I think the former appeals to more deranged individuals who run the risk of seeing this profound (for lack of a better word) sense of violence and mimicking it themselves. It appeals to them much more connecting with them.
Well, I think that his films--and films of that sort--work on the collective unconscious, of a community (nation, culture, whatever). For instance, just the idea of having one bad guy to deal with at a time certainly originated from Hollywood, and is perpetuated by the media.

And, the idea that some rootin' tootin', go-it-alone, Dirty Harry type can solve all of our problems by breaking the rules, certainly has its reflection in the expectations of our leaders. We laud those leaders that break the rules, because we expect that they're working from their "instincts."

Where did we get this idea? From the movies. And then, perpetuated by how the media is presented to us.
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:49 PM   #85
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ask Segal a question

Kevin W wrote:

Quote:
Kevin,

I am really surprised at how muddled your thinking has been on this thread. I have seen you post many logical and sensible things about martial arts, but you don't seem to be able to apply those same skills to this subject. What you have posted makes no sense whatsoever. It is not just a weak analogy, it is a completely irrelevant comparison and a complete misinterpretation of what I am arguing.

Hypocrisy is about claiming to be one thing and then being the opposite. It does not seem like you understand this concept. I am claiming that Seagal exhibits hypocrisy because he claims to be a man of humility and compassion yet gets rich from an activity that glorifies the opposite of both and ultimately serves exactly the opposite purpose. This criticism has nothing to do with whether I favor war or peace, humility or egotism.

Now, if I claimed to be dedicated to compassion towards animals and then turned around and ate meat, then you might be able to correctly call me a hypocrite. If I talked extensively about how I was all about compassion for animals in public interviews, then turned around and got rich from steak advertisements, then I would be just like Stephen Seagal...
I suppose it is possible I am not seeing this correctly. I appreciate your comments towards my post, thanks. You too....I have the same respect. Thanks.

I still think my analogy stands, albeit, I certainly don't think it necessarily applies to you as I have not, nor have you qualified your position towards your views on compassion etc.

However, I think that it follows the same logic....that you offer.

You state that he is a hippocrit because he makes movies that are incongrous with peace and harmony or humility from your judgement. I think that compassion has much to do with this.

I am stating that I think that based on that logic that one could draw a value judgement on some meat eaters as being hippocritical because they say they are all about peace and harmony (compassion) and eat meat, which in my personal value stream would be hippocritical.

To me it is much more than showing compassion to animals...but that is a different issue.

I think the point is that there is many things that must be considered when judging a person.

Personally I do find it interesting that someone that seems to follow the path that he is on would make the movies he makes, so I do agree with you a little. Where I draw the line is throwing the totality of him out because of this one issue.

I would also say if you drive a SUV you are a hippocrit to peace and harmony/humility too since you are not saving as much gas and polluting the world more than the next guy.

We can all find something in our own personal life that someone would criticize as being in conflict with another value.

some of our top sensei's smoke, smoking is bad for you, and bad for everyone else, so should we admonish dismiss them for being hippocritical towards the values and norms of aikido?

Again, where do we draw the line on all this stuff?

I where leather shoes, does that make me a hippocrit as a vegetarian? maybe/maybe not, I suppose it depends on your values and judgements.

Obviously you are entitled to your own judgements of the man. I respect that.

I am simply asking at what point do we draw the line and accept that there are somethings that we all need to improve upon, and recognize that we are human.

I really try hard not to place my judgements and values on others. It is difficult.

as Ghandi said, "be the change you want to see in the world"

I think he meant to not be, not say and judge others.

I try to follow this as best I can. alas I am human too, and not perfect.
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Old 01-23-2007, 02:02 PM   #86
Neil Mick
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Re: Ask Segal a question

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Again, where do we draw the line on all this stuff?

I where leather shoes, does that make me a hippocrit as a vegetarian?
So...exactly when did you start hating America...?
(sorry...I had to say that)

Good post, Kevin.
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Old 01-23-2007, 02:40 PM   #87
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Re: Ask Segal a question

Neil,

Where did you get the idea I hate America? (I think you are probably joking)

I am assuming you are referring to the United States, as America is really not a country, but a land mass that is comprised of land that is joined together as North, Central, and South America.

I alway find it interesting when people say "I am an american". I always ask, what kind? as Mexicans and Candians are also Americans.

Anyway....

This digresses off topic a little, but I think it is an important point, as we tend to make judgements about people based on the labels we place on them on what they represent.

We assume Americans are all U.S citizens. We assume that all americans think alike. I have heard people say, well "no, he is not an american...he is a muslim"....when infact that the person in question was a native born, U.S. Citizen.

I have a good friend of mine that I am stationed with here in Germany, that is an Army Officer, that is a natural born U.S. Citizen, that is in his mid thirties, that has lived in the United States for a grand total of maybe two years his whole life.

My daughter is turning two, she is a U.S. Citizen, yet has never lived in the united states.

Anyway.....

People and their lives are very complex. We make value judgements and assumptions, because it is efficient for us to do that in our transactions with them. It allows us to size someone up quickly typically determine...at a base level, friend or foe. We marginalize them as a person, isolating those things we must deal with in order to interact with them.

We will interact differently with the clerk at a 7-eleven than we do with a close friend.

Many times our experiences, asssumptions, and prejudices serve us well and help us get through our days, and sometimes protects us from harm.

Other times they hurt us and keep us from seeing things and expanding our understanding of the true nature of things.

I love small talk at parties. I love the question..."so what do you do for a living?"

I can answer that question several ways. I can say, I train people to kill people....or I can say, I train people to help protect others from harm.

Two different views on the same thing. does not change the true nature of what I really do...neither one is wrong, but certainly influences how one might view things or pass judgement.

The United States is a wonderful country. No where else that I know of that allows you to make mistakes, learn from them, and provides you the opporunity to pretty much live your life the way you choose to. It is complex, we have much we can improve upon. At least we are fortunate, and have the opportunity to improve and grow....that is much more than many people in the world can ever dream of having.

I honestly believe that if there is one country that can change the world for good...it is the United States.

I'd say the Dali Lama and Tibet might be the best example or model...but they simply do not have the ability or potential.

Now I know you can (and will ) debate how we use that potential...that is not what I am saying....I am simply saying that we have the ability and potential only...and that makes a huge difference.
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Old 01-24-2007, 01:29 PM   #88
Neil Mick
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Re: Ask Segal a question

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Neil,

Where did you get the idea I hate America? (I think you are probably joking)
You, hate America?? Of COURSE I was joking!

I just wanted to pop that one in, see how it sounded.

Quote:
I am assuming you are referring to the United States, as America is really not a country, but a land mass that is comprised of land that is joined together as North, Central, and South America.

I alway find it interesting when people say "I am an american". I always ask, what kind? as Mexicans and Candians are also Americans.

Anyway....

This digresses off topic a little, but I think it is an important point, as we tend to make judgements about people based on the labels we place on them on what they represent.

We assume Americans are all U.S citizens. We assume that all americans think alike. I have heard people say, well "no, he is not an american...he is a muslim"....when infact that the person in question was a native born, U.S. Citizen.
Yes. The same person could be Arab-American, French, lefthanded, a Republican, and Jewish. People are too broad to simply call them all "Americans," "Jewish" or "Arabs," and assume that we can opine their beliefs, just from that.

Quote:
I love small talk at parties. I love the question..."so what do you do for a living?"

I can answer that question several ways. I can say, I train people to kill people....or I can say, I train people to help protect others from harm.
Yes, I bet you're a hit at parties!

Quote:
The United States is a wonderful country.
It's a wonderful country, and a terrible country, at the same time.

Quote:
I honestly believe that if there is one country that can change the world for good...
...or, for ill...

Quote:
it is the United States.
Quote:
Now I know you can (and will ) debate how we use that potential...that is not what I am saying....I am simply saying that we have the ability and potential only...and that makes a huge difference.
Agreed...no debate there.
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:44 PM   #89
dalen7
 
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Re: Ask Segal a question

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote: View Post
To start with, the movies are all contrived revenge fantasies - what I would characterize as violence porn. I don't see how they are bringing people "happiness and joy," as he says. The stories all start with a character or characters doing horrible graphically violent things to presumably innocent people, which renders them demonic and sub-human to the viewer. Once they are safely cast as less than human, Seagal proceeds to brutalize and torture them to death and the audience is enabled to get off on the vengeful spectacle with a clear conscience.

This stuff is practically standard-issue propaganda designed to turn people into authoritarians and warmongers. The exact same psychological process of dehumanizing enemies and getting off on their suffering is what fuels wars and fascism.
You know, great post above...I woke up with a similar realization after watching 13th warrior.

1) Starts with people afraid of the bad vikings who kill and destroy
2) Vikings turn out to have an enemy
3) at the end of the film your rooting for the very guy at the beginning that you viewed as 'bad' - because there is now someone worse.

Yes, agreed...in concept, I have chosen to look at aikido as an internal art. Stop the fight internally, which will then externally stop the fight. So valid points you make, and its good to see others in the world think along the same lines.

Peace

Dalen
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:51 PM   #90
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Ask Segal a question

I would like to ask Steven Seagal (he used to pronounce it Seagull)if he still feels he is living out O'Sensei's vision for Aikido as a 'method to create the world as one family'? And if he does, how is he doing that today?

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Old 07-26-2007, 05:42 PM   #91
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ask Segal a question

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I would like to ask Steven Seagal (he used to pronounce it Seagull)
I read on his bio site that he actually pronounced it "SEE-gl," as in the Jewish surname (often spelled Siegel, Siegle, Seagle...). His father was ethnically Jewish. I can't recall whether his mother was Italian or Irish, but she was one or both of 'em. I think Irish. Early in Seagal's career, he partnered with another person of Jewish ancestry, and didn't want their business name -- which paired their surnames -- to sound like "a couple of Jewish drycleaners" or something like that, so he changed the pronunciation and spelling.

Geez. I can't believe you dredged up this old thread, and that I've now perpetuated it...

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Old 08-24-2007, 08:27 AM   #92
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Ask Segal a question

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Rich Stephens wrote: View Post
Sorry, but this is not analogous at all. Seagal's movies are not advertisements for any particular behavior. They are fairytales. Maybe he simply has more faith than you do in mankind's ability to realize that low budget hollywood action films are fantasy and that in the real world people should behave differently. I believe movies can have some impact, but I also think you are grossly overstating the harm that could be caused by these movies.
So, we discount 'the power of myth'?

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Old 08-24-2007, 08:32 AM   #93
jennifer paige smith
 
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Eek! Re: Ask Segal a question

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
I read on his bio site that he actually pronounced it "SEE-gl," as in the Jewish surname (often spelled Siegel, Siegle, Seagle...). His father was ethnically Jewish. I can't recall whether his mother was Italian or Irish, but she was one or both of 'em. I think Irish. Early in Seagal's career, he partnered with another person of Jewish ancestry, and didn't want their business name -- which paired their surnames -- to sound like "a couple of Jewish drycleaners" or something like that, so he changed the pronunciation and spelling.

Geez. I can't believe you dredged up this old thread, and that I've now perpetuated it...
Geez, I didn't. But on the west coast we pronounce sea and see the same.

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