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Old 08-23-2007, 11:59 AM   #76
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Hi Mathew,

In general, randori in Japanese arts loses the distinction between uke and nage/shite/tori. Shodokan Aikido follows this example.

Aikikai, Yoshinkan Aikido does do what is called randori, but in most cases, there is still a distinction between uke and nage. One person in uke, and one nage for the entire exercise.

Most of the latter would be quite surprised in a true Shodokan randori situation, I think. Not all...but at least quite a few.

Best,
Ron (I would include myself in that assessment)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:07 PM   #77
Basia Halliop
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Randori probably means different things in different dojos and with different people.

Most of what I've seen is sort of like 'ukes(s) take turns attacking nage in one of 'the usual' attacks (any attack theoretically), nage does a technique of their choice, uke does ukemi, next uke attacks.' I.e., the uke(s) are still not 'trying to win' generally any more than in paired kata practice, they're just attacking then taking ukemi, it's just that nage doesn't know what attack is coming at him/her or from what direction, and has to decide on the spur of the moment which technique to do for that attack. But it's generally still basically structured and basically 'cooperative', at least what I've mostly seen.

On the other hand, I've also seen/done jiu-waza that was totally different from that, much closer to sparring, attacks much less structured (although still not 'full-force'), you tried to stick in 'real techniques' whenever you could but if you couldn't think of a 'real technique' to do, you did something else fast otherwise the other would do something -- but rarely and only with a few people.
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:58 PM   #78
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
What? Are you saying that they used to train with sparring in aikido before WW2? And also that Yoshinkan uses sparring in its training?
Where have you "learned" all of this?
The sparring methodology of Aikido, originally called Aikibudo was that of militaristic superiority. Japan was at it's height in what it called militaristic pride before WWII. The warrior mentality was always a part of the traditional Japanese martial arts before WWII. Historically Aiki methodology was mastered for killing, Aikijujutsu, Aikibudo, etc. The combative nature of these martial arts was for the
warrior , required sparring, testing of skills for combat and effectiveness of technique.

The warrior mentality was part of Ueshiba's mentality at the time. As most know his primary martial arts background was in Judo, from Kiyoichi Takagi, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, from Takeda Sokaku and other traditional Japanese martial arts. Some writings indicate the speeches of nationalism and gratification of the samurai vanquishing it's enemies. This was the mentality of early Aikido (Aikibudo was the name he used to describe his martial arts at the time.)

Ueshiba became deeply influenced by religious sect leader Onisaburo Deguchi, the leader of the neo-Shinto Omoto-kyo religion. The philosophy of utopia, love and compassion were essential elements in the teachings. Ueshiba distance himself from the methodology of Judo and Aikijujutsu toward the late 1920s or 30's. Aikibudo became Aikido officially in 1942. A result of the religious conversation, what was thought of as a purification of the Aikibudo, to harmonize men. The hostile environment created by the Japanese government also propagated the discontinuance of traditional Japanese combat martial arts. Aikido was formed more from a religious zealousness, losing it's combat nature that it originally had.

The warrior, sparring nature of Aikibudo was reunited from some of the early students of Ueshiba. Minoru Mochizuki, a direct student of Ueshiba and one of the first to bring Aikido to the western world, brought Yoseikan Aikdio. The methodologies of Judo, Aikijujutsu were brought back to the original Aikibudo, very prevalent in France under the auspices of Alain Floquet, a direct student of Mochizuki. Mochizuki preserved the true essence of Aikido. Sparring, competitive nature was brought back to life. Goza Shioda brought Yoshinkan Aikido, another warrior driven methodology. Kenji Tomiki brought Shodokan Aikido, which holds regular competitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoseikan_Aikido

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shodokan_Aikido

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3455

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=244

http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclo...hp?entryID=324

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=322

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=87
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Old 08-23-2007, 01:00 PM   #79
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Salim, no offense, but I think you've seen too many samurai movies...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-23-2007, 01:05 PM   #80
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

I love those movies.

Cheers
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Old 08-23-2007, 01:21 PM   #81
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

You know, here's a conflict (and I swear it's related to all of this stuff) that there may be in trying to study both aikido and bjj:

Reishiki.

In aikido, very often, there's quite a bit of ceremony and fomalized behavior - sometimes exacerbated needlessly, sometimes critically tied into one's worldview of budo, other times there simply to preserve the tradition in what one's been taught.

Bowing, posture, how to sit, how to stand, opening and closing the engagment - many times there's a right and wrong way to do this . . . which can be a comfort to someone that thrives by strict controls and a hindrance to someone that just wants to roll.

I'll admit, my own bias is typically towards a less formal setting, but thanks to my current instructor, I've begun to see the merit of rei, incorporated it more into my practice and made the effort to better understand what's meant by the term, "Budo begins and ends with Rei" . . .

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has its own cultural attributes that permeate practice. It's not uncommon to see guys lounging/laying around in a casual fashion while the instructor teaches a technique or drill. This actually can be viewed as having merit in an approach to instruction - in that it's consistent with the idea of using as little energy as possible, conserving strength, etc. It's also indicative of a possibly more casual approach to certain conventions of practice.

Anyhow, I see this as more of a source of conflict than necessarily the techniques and principles. The conflicts in randori I think are also worth mentioning, but I think a number of aikido schools/practitioners legitimately look for ways of "honest" testing that don't have anything to do with competition - whether they call it randori, jiyu waza, sparring, training . . . etc.
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Old 08-23-2007, 02:17 PM   #82
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Is this the Yoseikan Aikido you're talking about Salim? (Just what a found from a quick youtube search)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xRVAjktcT1E

Budd: I've always found that the "When in Rome..." saying worked best for me. Whatever environment you're in, blend with it. I can imagine how Aikidoka might find it weird that BJJ guys talk and laugh during stretching, or play loud music during practice/rolling. Ehehe.

Reishiki doesn't define who you are. Just because you are mimicking another culture doesn't mean you will "lack" something in your martial arts training if you don't follow those guidelines. As long as there's a sense of respect and order on the mat, it's all fine, bowing in seiza or not.

Just what I think.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 08-23-2007 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 08-23-2007, 02:36 PM   #83
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Yoseikan Aiki-jutsu.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=inS1EPTMn...elated&search=

I can feel the combative warrior spirit shine!
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:48 PM   #84
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Hi Roman,

Agree with the "when in Rome . . ." (especially per my earlier co-opting of Don's quote).

As for mimicking another culture, it's more about retaining aspects of another culture's influences in your current practice and learning to see relevance for yourself - not necessarily making one more or less martial.

Order and respect are relative things, depending on your viewpoint. To your point, there are plenty of instances in a Japanese dojo setting where "respect" is overtly shown, but not given. Likewise in a BJJ session, swearing and silliness can mask shared brotherhood towards a common purpose.

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Budd: I've always found that the "When in Rome..." saying worked best for me. Whatever environment you're in, blend with it. I can imagine how Aikidoka might find it weird that BJJ guys talk and laugh during stretching, or play loud music during practice/rolling. Ehehe.

Reishiki doesn't define who you are. Just because you are mimicking another culture doesn't mean you will "lack" something in your martial arts training if you don't follow those guidelines. As long as there's a sense of respect and order on the mat, it's all fine, bowing in seiza or not.

Just what I think.
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Old 08-23-2007, 04:40 PM   #85
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Is this the Yoseikan Aikido you're talking about Salim? (Just what a found from a quick youtube search)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xRVAjktcT1E

Budd: I've always found that the "When in Rome..." saying worked best for me. Whatever environment you're in, blend with it. I can imagine how Aikidoka might find it weird that BJJ guys talk and laugh during stretching, or play loud music during practice/rolling. Ehehe.

Reishiki doesn't define who you are. Just because you are mimicking another culture doesn't mean you will "lack" something in your martial arts training if you don't follow those guidelines. As long as there's a sense of respect and order on the mat, it's all fine, bowing in seiza or not.

Just what I think.
Yes thats Yoseikan Aikido.
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Old 08-23-2007, 04:42 PM   #86
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

[quote=Peter Gröndahl;187322]Yoseikan Aiki-jutsu.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=inS1EPTMn...elated&search=

I can feel the combative warrior spirit shine! [/QUOTE

Nice youtube clip and definitely more adaptive to self defense.
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:36 PM   #87
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Likewise in a BJJ session, swearing and silliness can mask shared brotherhood towards a common purpose.
By respect and order I didn't really mean quiet seiza and Japanese class lingo. Meant more of what you said. We swear all the time, and our teacher regularly (and good heartedly) refers to some of his students as "punks", but there is a strong sense of family in the dojo. No one is out to get no one, and every one is on good terms, especially when it comes time to help someone progress.

Just felt like saying that as a lot of people speak of the etiquette in Aikido as if it produces better people than an MMA gym. Many of our folks have careers too, and they go about their day just like anyone else. Whatever works for the person right?

I always found it strange though how mellowed out people are here. You go to a youth hockey team outing and it's usually a testosterone-powered rivalry. You walk into a gym where people of all sizes come in to fight, and it's like walking into a cafe.
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:44 PM   #88
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
I always found it strange though how mellowed out people are here. You go to a youth hockey team outing and it's usually a testosterone-powered rivalry. You walk into a gym where people of all sizes come in to fight, and it's like walking into a cafe.
Yeah, there's groups in the aiki and MMA end of the spectrum that beat the crap out of each other, such that people are always injured (for stupid reasons, IMO). There's also folks in both games that know when to appropriately "turn it on", but generally know how to be cool and keep it in context.
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Old 08-24-2007, 05:53 PM   #89
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Ron, thanks for the clarification on randori! I find I often develop a sense of certain terminology which is close, but not quite correct, to the actual meaning. I think I may be thinking of "shiai" but I'm not yet positive of that.

Salim, thanks for the bit of history. You've clearly looked it up more than I have. My only real point was that "Shinto" itself isn't so much a factor in the presumed lack of sparring since it existed before aikido did. You're probably right that Oomotokyo influenced aikido to a large degree (via Osensei); my only question is how that presumably took place. Osensei was involved in Oomotokyo during the 20's and 30's when "aikido" was still more "hard" wasn't he?
Take care, and sorry for straying off topic.
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 08-24-2007 at 06:01 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-25-2007, 12:28 PM   #90
salim
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Ron, thanks for the clarification on randori! I find I often develop a sense of certain terminology which is close, but not quite correct, to the actual meaning. I think I may be thinking of "shiai" but I'm not yet positive of that.

Salim, thanks for the bit of history. You've clearly looked it up more than I have. My only real point was that "Shinto" itself isn't so much a factor in the presumed lack of sparring since it existed before aikido did. You're probably right that Oomotokyo influenced aikido to a large degree (via Osensei); my only question is how that presumably took place. Osensei was involved in Oomotokyo during the 20's and 30's when "aikido" was still more "hard" wasn't he?
Take care, and sorry for straying off topic.
Matt
It is commonly thought that Ueshiba's increasing attachment to pacifism in later years and belief that Aikido should be an "art of peace" were inspired by his involvement with the sect.

Ueshiba met Onisaburo Deguchi around 1920, research suggest that over the years, perhaps a 15 to 20 year period there was a natural progression toward pacifism, due to the teachings of Omoto religion. Ueshiba went through sort of, Aikido metamorphosed. The combative nature of the original Aikido was changed to meet the needs of Ueshiba's religious beliefs.

It's true that the early Aikido methods maintain some of it's combativeness. This was gradually reduced to pacifism.
The increase pressure from the Japanese government to remove combat arts from Japan greatly influenced all Japanese arts during this time. It was seen as a display of defiance toward government control of the society at large.
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:16 AM   #91
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Hello All,

As a Yoseikan Aikidoka I feel I can contribute.

First the clip above is not Yoseikan Aikido, it is Yoseikan Budo of Hiroo Mochizuki.

In Yoseikan we have Shiai, combat practice, which could be used to mean "competition" but would be classified as sparing. Our Jiyu Randori, which would be more in line with what would be considered sparring in karate for example. Here uke attacks in any way, and always resists tori. For this reason things tend to end up on the floor with uke and tori grappling. This is identical to the randori in Judo.

Our shiai is a competitive randori, which was never meant to be organised to formal competitions that Yoseikan Budo now have, as Judo was never meant to be part of the Olympics. Here the practitioners decide on scoring and rules and then compete. This could be with knifes and batons, or hand to hand like judo, scoring with a clean throw or a pin.

Now from that, Yoseikan Aikido includes all Judo ne waza, ground fighting techniques. Even the old techniques that are no longer in Judo, such as leg locks are in Yoseikan Aikido. Hence, our ground fighting is comparable to BJJ. So the compatibility that is being discussed between Aikido and BJJ, already exists in Yoseikan Aikido.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-26-2007, 10:01 AM   #92
salim
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Hello All,

As a Yoseikan Aikidoka I feel I can contribute.

First the clip above is not Yoseikan Aikido, it is Yoseikan Budo of Hiroo Mochizuki.

In Yoseikan we have Shiai, combat practice, which could be used to mean "competition" but would be classified as sparing. Our Jiyu Randori, which would be more in line with what would be considered sparring in karate for example. Here uke attacks in any way, and always resists tori. For this reason things tend to end up on the floor with uke and tori grappling. This is identical to the randori in Judo.

Our shiai is a competitive randori, which was never meant to be organised to formal competitions that Yoseikan Budo now have, as Judo was never meant to be part of the Olympics. Here the practitioners decide on scoring and rules and then compete. This could be with knifes and batons, or hand to hand like judo, scoring with a clean throw or a pin.

Now from that, Yoseikan Aikido includes all Judo ne waza, ground fighting techniques. Even the old techniques that are no longer in Judo, such as leg locks are in Yoseikan Aikido. Hence, our ground fighting is comparable to BJJ. So the compatibility that is being discussed between Aikido and BJJ, already exists in Yoseikan Aikido.

Regards,
I wish there was a Yoseikan dojo in Raleigh, North Carolina. Yoseikan Aikido is the best Aikido.
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Old 08-26-2007, 10:26 AM   #93
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I wish there was a Yoseikan dojo in Raleigh, North Carolina. Yoseikan Aikido is the best Aikido.
This is the closest

North Carolina Yoseikan Budo
220 North Poston Street, Shelby, North Carolina USA 28150
Tel: (704) 472-0944
Teacher: Sensei Yves Boudreau

Thank you for making the statement about Yoseikan, but it is a very subjective comment. I think for me, now, at my age, yes, Yoseikan is the best school of Aikido for me. Maybe one day, when I am older I might have a different view of things. Look at O'Sensei, his Aikido evolved through his whole life, as did Mochizuki Kancho's Aikido.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:26 PM   #94
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
On a related note, here's an interesting video of a BJJ guy sparring with an Aikido guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ny3yZitAFU
First of all. I didnt see any Aikido from the "black belt" in this video. At least not the kind of Aikido I'm use to seeing. Secondly I think a random guy off the street would stand a pretty good chance of putting a beat down on either of these two. I guess the white belt could claim inexperience. how sad!
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:49 PM   #95
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Interesting, i've recently been seriously thinking about possibly cross training. I've been practicing Aikido now for over a year three times a week usually without fail. And was sniffing around Wing Chun then gradually considered BJJ after i learnt more about it. Then i come to this forum for the first time in almost a year and its the first topic in the general forum i see.

Personally i was recently thinking about the practicalities of Aikido, using it in a real street fight situation. It this real thought into it which made me consider something else to compliment my Aikido training. I took up Aikido not for the spiritual aspect, but for self defence.

Even though it seems to me Aikido has the worst reputation when it comes to using it in a real situation. All the arts of course have their disadvantages BJJ has a fair few i can think of in a real street pub brawl envioronment. Im still debating whether to just stick with my Aikido, a 3rd dan at my dojo shows us an Aikido that seems very practical, a lot more solid than a lot of Aikido i've seen online etc.

But if i had the time i think i would attend BJJ twice a week for at least 6 months a year, if there was a dojo near me. (Im in the south east) But at the moment i've put so much into Aikido, even though its only a year and a half or so i have put a lot of time in. I want to see how i feel in a year or so. But BJJ does keep calling!
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Old 08-26-2007, 03:35 PM   #96
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Perhaps Yoseikan Aikido will solve the dilemma. It already contains some of the BJJ methods along with Judo throws. It's really a good combination for self defense.

Others and myself feel the same way that you do. Really we are not interested in the religious aspects of Aikido and want to learn self defense only.
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Old 08-26-2007, 03:41 PM   #97
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
This is the closest

North Carolina Yoseikan Budo
220 North Poston Street, Shelby, North Carolina USA 28150
Tel: (704) 472-0944
Teacher: Sensei Yves Boudreau

Thank you for making the statement about Yoseikan, but it is a very subjective comment. I think for me, now, at my age, yes, Yoseikan is the best school of Aikido for me. Maybe one day, when I am older I might have a different view of things. Look at O'Sensei, his Aikido evolved through his whole life, as did Mochizuki Kancho's Aikido.

Regards,
Thank you. I'll have to visit this dojo, although it's several hours from Raleigh area.
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Old 08-26-2007, 05:22 PM   #98
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Interesting, i've recently been seriously thinking about possibly cross training.
You might find it worth your while to seek out a Yoshinkan instructor not a million miles from where you are, by the name of Gadi Shorr. He's a 5th dan graduate of the (in)famous Yoshinkan Senshusei course who also has a great deal of experience of BJJ. He practices and teaches somewhere in Hertfordshire, Watford I think. He's an excellent teacher and a thoroughly good egg, worth a visit perhaps.
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Old 08-26-2007, 06:32 PM   #99
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote: View Post
You might find it worth your while to seek out a Yoshinkan instructor not a million miles from where you are, by the name of Gadi Shorr. He's a 5th dan graduate of the (in)famous Yoshinkan Senshusei course who also has a great deal of experience of BJJ. He practices and teaches somewhere in Hertfordshire, Watford I think. He's an excellent teacher and a thoroughly good egg, worth a visit perhaps.
Thats great, thank you i will give the name a google, i would have some questions for him actually. I worry if my problem is my patience. I guess after the time i put in i want to feel like i can defend myself competently, but i'll never know until the time comes.

I havent had a fight in 12 years (when i was at school) i don't see why that has to change. I jus want to know if i can avoid fighting effectively (so use my Aikido) if it was to happen, otherwise i'd do something else that will teach me to end a conflict, but i see nothing as unique as Aikido in this particular way of thought, ending conflict peacfully....which tells me i should jus stick with it.

Im a big dude i dont want to smack someone, anyone, the thought of injuring someone isn't really for me. Why i took Aikido up in the first place. Maybe im answering my own question...stick with Aikido Who knows, i love the choice though.
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Old 08-26-2007, 11:43 PM   #100
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Even though it seems to me Aikido has the worst reputation when it comes to using it in a real situation.
This is a sad fact, but all I need to know is that when push comes to shove, I am confident that MY Aikido will work for me.

In the two self defence situations I have been in, my Aikido worked great, just big haymakers (over telegraphed hooks) and some bad kicks, no problems all I had to do was block the attacks. With the second one, I was going to take the guy down, but security turned up, so I let them deal with him.

To me, the mat work in Yoseikan is not part of self defence, but dealing with a trained opponent. Having said that, one of the other students in our class (when he was a beginner) got jumped by two guys and he did a sweep to throw one of the guys, but got pulled down to the ground. Luckily a guy pulled up in his car and scared the two guys off, other wise he would not have known what to do. This is why in my training, I will train ne waza with everyone, even beginners. In a self defence situation it is less likely you will use it, but if someone pulls you down, you have to get them off you quick to deal with the next guy. This is where one on one ground work can complement a multiple opponent art like Aikido.

I believe there are three levels to Aikido, basics, self defence, and combat. Here I us combat to mean defending against a trained attacker in some thing like a protection senario (hence running is not an option). This is where the addition of a totally resistant uke in Yoseikan means we get real experience. Personally I believe that cooperation is needed, but only for basics. After that, uke should resist, he should committee to the attack, like you would get in a self defence situation, but he should resist after that, if he can. I think other styles of Aikido tend to emphasis the cooperation to much, this results in beautiful techniques, but no practical experience.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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