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Old 08-22-2007, 08:45 AM   #1
kokyu
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Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

A couple of years ago, one of the Sensei at my previous dojo spent almost the entire session on locks that affected the elbow... and then towards the end, he demonstrated hiji shime or rokkyo... needless to say, one of my elbows gave way and I had to go easy for a month on that elbow... ever since then, I've had hiji-shime phobia...

From what little I know, there are 'standard' ukemi for certain locks... e.g. for nikkyo, relax, bend your elbow and move towards tori's center, for sankyo, spin with the lock... these ukemi allow the body to accept these locks (i.e. ukemi), and in a way, mitigate the pain...

I would be grateful if someone could share the ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

Thanks
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:05 AM   #2
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

Osu!

Back pivot. Usually hiji shime has uke bent over at the waist, the elbow and arm above their body, and shite either sinks or sinks and front pivots. As they pivot, you pivot. It helps if you relax the arm at the same time. If shite isn't clamped on, when you relax the arm and back pivot, you can even drop to your butt at the end of your pivot and back roll out of the control.

There are nasty versions of the waza where you just drop straight down to the mat and tap like crazy. Look for video of Parker shihan applying the ground version of this.

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:37 AM   #3
grondahl
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

Drop down!
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:22 AM   #4
odudog
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

The ukemi all depends on the way the technique is applied.
1) Spin as Ron said if nage tenkans {usual Yoshinkan version}.

2) Drop down as Peter said if nage goes straight down to the mat {usual Aikikai version}.

3) Jump back quickly and lay your stomach flat on the mat if nage uses your arm like an oar {think of the guy who pushes the gondola in Venice, Italy}.
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:04 AM   #5
Don_Modesto
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

* Don't give NAGE a straight arm. S/He won't like it, but you preserve your elbow.

* Get out of the way fast (drop, as above).

* Tap early. In my experience, injury occurs before pain with elbow locks.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:28 AM   #6
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

All good suggestions Don. Especially number one.

Best,
Ron (one of my sempai locks me even without a straight arm. Still working on how he does this...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-22-2007, 12:21 PM   #7
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

I would agree with don j.
Save on the bent arm, I think it will make nague add a tas a nikkio in the mix. And frankly it is unpleasant enough without extra added seasoning

As nage as well I leave a bit of time between the control and the application. So that uke has time to drop properly.

Ron
It is may be a difference in the way we call things in different place and what one understands
But what I call rokkio is pressing down the elbow and pushing up the locked wrist.
What I call hije shime, uke has is elbow bent so it has a kind of nijkio feel to it (all of our nikkio have the hand trapped against our body save 1st form ie ai henmi).

May be that is what you sempai is doing.

The way I would describe it is that as the more uke is bending and try rotate backward the more nikio ura it will be flavored.
Like that as nague, you can keep the technique in advance of Uke and on front of you.

Phil

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Old 08-22-2007, 07:03 PM   #8
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

You can roll over your shoulder (the arm that is "locked") or, draw the elbow inwards towards your abdomen (this move comes from under the shoulder blades). The roll-out works quite "late" in the technique, the elbow-inwards must be done earlier.
Of course, if you allow the lock to be fully applied and your arm fixed and locked, then all you can do is drop - and depend on the forebearance/decency of tori when you tap out.

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Old 08-22-2007, 07:24 PM   #9
eyrie
 
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote: View Post
From what little I know, there are 'standard' ukemi for certain locks... e.g. for nikkyo, relax, bend your elbow and move towards tori's center, for sankyo, spin with the lock... these ukemi allow the body to accept these locks (i.e. ukemi), and in a way, mitigate the pain... I would be grateful if someone could share the ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo
Rokkyo/Hiji shime (wakigatame) is an armpit armlock/take down technique - the idea being to drop the person to the ground (thru the elbow/shoulder) and put them in a ground hold, where they are face down on the floor and their free hand is away from you. Once you're in that position, there ain't much you can do.... except maybe tap out before your elbow pops.

The only way for uke to receive a properly applied wakigatame is to do a front breakfall (NOT a forward roll - a BREAKFALL). So, to me, allowing yourself to get into a submission hold like that, whilst great for nage learning how to apply the technique, serves little to help uke... front breakfalls can be taught in under a minute, although it might take longer for most to overcome their fear of falling, particularly while someone is trying to "do something" to them.

However, I don't really think there is such a thing as "standard" ukemi. Even if you're talking about some generally prescribed method to receive the technique - as a way to mitigate the pain, or to "safely receive" or even better, to "escape" and "counter" - there is nothing "standard" about it... it depends... there are a myriad ways to do these things.

Just so you have a better idea of what I'm rabbitting on about, let's go back to a definition of "ukemi", which is to receive (with the) body. In any case, being relaxed is only ONE aspect of being able to receive.... a small part only, but an important part nonetheless. The question is... what do you do BEFORE, DURING or AFTER receiving it?

What's wrong with using something like aiki-otoshi (sukui nage) or gedanate as a way to "receive" it??? Uke is nage, nage is uke right?

Ignatius
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Old 08-22-2007, 08:02 PM   #10
giriasis
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

Breakfall from hijishime? I just can't visualize that. Have a video clip?

Well, the way I've been taught is that if uke is taking you straight down you go down on your stomach. But you are more like putting your weight on your free hand and then kicking your feet out. With a tenkan you turn with it, and it feels more like ukemi for ikkyo ura.

But essentially you want to get in close to nage fast and go down fast and tap slightly early. If you have fear of your elbow getting hyperextended again, do what Don says. But, I would tell your nage why you do that so they don't interpret a slighty bent elbow as "resistance."

It also helps me to look at nage's the center the whole way down. Doing so gives me a visual and focal point to maintain my connection and protect myself - especially when nage puts it on fast.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:13 PM   #11
eyrie
 
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote: View Post
Breakfall from hijishime? I just can't visualize that. Have a video clip?
Not exactly from this particular technique, but here's what I mean by front breakfall. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo0_2O...elated&search=

Not the best, but have a look at 1:13 to 1:40. In particular, the 2nd guy and the guy in the green t-shirt. You break the fall with your forearm and spread your legs apart, without touching your body to the floor. See http://judoinfo.com/ukemi.htm for an animated version.

Quote:
Well, the way I've been taught is that if uke is taking you straight down you go down on your stomach. But you are more like putting your weight on your free hand and then kicking your feet out. With a tenkan you turn with it, and it feels more like ukemi for ikkyo ura.
Not if the lock is applied quickly... going down on your free hand is a good way to break your wrist.

When I played with the jujitsu guys, there was no time to think about doing such and such ukemi, and in most cases, you wouldn't even feel a correctly applied technique coming on until you've hit the floor.

To illustrate, imagine going from http://judoinfo.com/wakigata.jpg to http://judoinfo.com/images/ejc/class8.jpg (swap sides) in a split second.

Ignatius
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:52 PM   #12
Keith R Lee
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

He's saying you should sprawl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprawl_%28grappling%29

Keith Lee
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:32 AM   #13
Christopher Gee
 
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
You can roll over your shoulder (the arm that is "locked") or, draw the elbow inwards towards your abdomen (this move comes from under the shoulder blades). The roll-out works quite "late" in the technique, the elbow-inwards must be done earlier.
Sensei Amdur, so do you draw your arm in and then make the rolling breakfall? Does that make it look a little like shiho nage?

Regards,
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:40 AM   #14
Christopher Gee
 
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post

Not if the lock is applied quickly... going down on your free hand is a good way to break your wrist.

When I played with the jujitsu guys, there was no time to think about doing such and such ukemi, and in most cases, you wouldn't even feel a correctly applied technique coming on until you've hit the floor.
'Inspired' (my own interpretation of) by Sensei Amdurs ukemi DVD (apologise for the apparent brown nosing, however, credit where it is due), if you 'follow' (dirty word I know) the technique into jigatai to absorb the initial movement by releasing some of the pressure on the elbow. Then placing the free arm down and make the worm. Seems to work well for me in robust practice (I dont know another way) if shite follows you to the floor then you are no worse off for making this fall. Either way, in the real world, you'll never play the piano again......
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Old 08-23-2007, 01:33 AM   #15
eyrie
 
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

Re: rollout/shoulder roll... you'd only do it if you're already going forward and down, but nage hasn't quite got your arm straight or the lock on, or both. But I wouldn't try it if the arm/shoulder is fully locked - not unless you want a dislocated shoulder. Basically, you roll over your shoulder - like how you would do a backward roll over your shoulder to get up, except you're going forwards in a roll but unfold onto the mat.

Anne Marie, I finally found a decent video....
http://www.suginoharyu.com/html/vide...i%20gatame.mpg

As you can see, when correctly applied with timing, you won't have time to do a rollout, you'd just drop.

Ignatius
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:17 AM   #16
kokyu
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
You can roll over your shoulder (the arm that is "locked")
I'm also having some difficulty visualizing this...
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Old 08-23-2007, 08:54 PM   #17
giriasis
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Anne Marie, I finally found a decent video....
http://www.suginoharyu.com/html/vide...i%20gatame.mpg

As you can see, when correctly applied with timing, you won't have time to do a rollout, you'd just drop.
Thanks, that's a lot better. That's more what I was trying to describe. We're talking about the same thing but different terminology. I was visualizing where one flips over. I just couldn't see someone turning/rolling over in a throw like that.

But we typically don't train hijishime with that amount of intensity. Even the guys who train more intensely than most tend to go more gently on each other with this technique.

Re: the front hand down..Your right. I just didn't describe myself well. Yes, you wouldn't put your hand down, I use my forearm. Growning up I've sprain my wrist one to many times falling down and extending my hand.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 08-24-2007, 06:34 AM   #18
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ukemi for hiji shime/rokkyo

in the ukemi currently under discussion (kind of a front break fall) I've been taught to use the forearms as well...and I've found that there is almost always plenty of time to apply it even when caught by surprise if the reflex is trained.

Oh, credit where it is due, Ellis Amdur was the person who taught that method to me first, though I had been taught similar things, and have since added to it myself from what I've seen others do.

Best,
Ron

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