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Old 08-20-2007, 09:05 AM   #1501
MM
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Good points, Budd. I'll usually prod people a little bit who already claim expertise to see exactly what their motivations are.
Man, Mike, you hit a nerve on that one. I don't think I've ever really come up with a good answer to my motivations. As some older martial artists have said in interviews, to be strong, is aptly answered. But, I think that speaks to a lot of people who study a martial art. Are there other motivations than that?

And working on some of these basic exercises, my mind still screams why am I doing this. Well, after the mind quits trying to do the exercises, it screams that question. During, my mind doesn't have the time or extra neurons to do anything but concentrate on the exercises.

So why? heck, I can continue in Aikido without the internal stuff. But I want to put it into my aikido. It's my opinion it was there from the start. And I don't want to get close to Ueshiba's skill. I don't want to be like Ueshiba or have his skill. I want to be better than Ueshiba. I want to stand on his shoulders and go further. Maybe that is a motivation ...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Only a few people are really interested in exploring an art to these depths unless they have a reasonable body of their peers doing the same thing. In other words, the herd instinct is one of the main factors at work.
Seems that way.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The second thing is that there is an IQ threshold to all of this. Not everyone can get it (have the day-to-day insights from smarts and hard work) or would be willing to devote the time and effort.
Heh. I may prove you wrong on the IQ thing. LOL. I've never been the brightest bulb in the house. Just the most stubborn.

Mark
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Old 08-20-2007, 09:50 AM   #1502
Budd
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

You know, if I had to provide an answer as to why this stuff is of interest - it'd be that (to borrow Dan's phrase - which nails it IMO), "It makes you a better you."

Of course, there can be all sorts of examination and pseudo-scitheophilologicontific analyses of what the word "better" means, but for my purposes and goals for training - it really fits.

Now, as for answering the question as to exactly "where" it fits . . . I don't know, yet . . . still working on that one.
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Old 08-20-2007, 10:16 AM   #1503
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
ManAs some older martial artists have said in interviews, to be strong, is aptly answered. But, I think that speaks to a lot of people who study a martial art. Are there other motivations than that?
Well sure. There's status, wannabelieve-something-esoteric, social, ritual, pecking-order, and a number of other reasons. Generally speaking (i.e., there are exceptions) some of the nicest martial artists (true Wu-De/Bu-Do) I've met tend to be the ones who are purists and always looking, regardless of the other stuff. There's a common feeling that is usually pretty recognizable.

Best,

Mike
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Old 08-20-2007, 10:30 AM   #1504
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
or would it be better for those imaginary students if you simply worked to keep Justin out of the teaching ranks of various arts?
Mike,
What are the "teaching ranks" and how would you go about working to keep Justin out of those ranks?
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Old 08-20-2007, 10:53 AM   #1505
akiy
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Let's stay away from discussions of a personal nature here, folks.

Last warning before thread gets closed.

-- Jun

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Old 08-20-2007, 09:36 PM   #1506
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
You'll stay where you are. That circular piece of sky up above you must be fascinating.
I'll stay where I am asking for evidence of amazing claims? Yes, I will.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-20-2007, 09:39 PM   #1507
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

The discussion of who should show whom what will be a topic on QiJin since obviously it won't fit into AikiWeb.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-20-2007, 09:42 PM   #1508
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Re: Baseline skillset

Super! I can't wait to read it on QiJin.

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:54 AM   #1509
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The discussion of who should show whom what will be a topic on QiJin since obviously it won't fit into AikiWeb.

Mike Sigman
What's QiJin?
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Old 08-21-2007, 10:36 AM   #1510
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

QiJin is a private list...invitation only, I believe.

Best,
Ron

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Old 08-21-2007, 11:29 AM   #1511
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

If you restrict your membership to people who are really interested (and who post.... non-posters get the boot pretty soon), you can have some fairly good discussions. Of course, it's not a perfect membership (we even have some guy who surreptitiously sends Dan the QiJin stuff, apparently), but when you don't have to play to the general (i.e., heavily social, wannabe, role-playing, ritualisitic, New Age, the Nut Cases, etc., etc.) and can instead have discussions centered on the technical, etc., it can be very productive. AikiWeb caters to the general membership of Aikido and has a different protocol and focus than QiJin, which focuses on the body mechanics of qi/ki and jin/kokyu. Each to his own.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:39 AM   #1512
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

Understood...and actually, I think it is a good idea. I would be a lurker there, and nothing more, so that's why I never took you up on your offer.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:56 AM   #1513
MM
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Re: Baseline skillset

Some background reading is required here:
http://cattanga.typepad.com/see_otter_yiquan/

It's worth it, IMO. I think it's two pages, so nothing like this thread.

Anyway, the person's latest entry is about the "The Missing Basic" exercise to develop qi/ki. Is this "Missing Basic" something that is part of what we talk about here?
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Old 08-21-2007, 03:10 PM   #1514
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Re: Baseline skillset

From the page
(bold added)

Quote:
No I'm not going to tell its name. Why should I, just to get all kinds of random shit blastback from every idiot out there on the net. Y'all don't pay me enough for that. But it's in there, and I got it.
...
The Missing Basic is in there. If you can find it you can have it.
What is up with the 'shroud of mystery' approach.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-21-2007, 07:21 PM   #1515
Budd
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Well, it was a good discussion while it lasted . . . .
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:15 PM   #1516
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Justin Smith wrote: View Post
What is up with the 'shroud of mystery' approach.
I think the answer is self contained, "Why should I, just to get all kinds of random shit blastback from every idiot out there on the net." I would also speculate that while the MB is basic it is not sufficient in and of itself.

The other question is will they feel the same about MB two weeks from now?

Last edited by Walker : 08-21-2007 at 08:21 PM. Reason: I had another thought.

-Doug Walker
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Old 08-22-2007, 12:09 AM   #1517
Lee Salzman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Some background reading is required here:
http://cattanga.typepad.com/see_otter_yiquan/

It's worth it, IMO. I think it's two pages, so nothing like this thread.

Anyway, the person's latest entry is about the "The Missing Basic" exercise to develop qi/ki. Is this "Missing Basic" something that is part of what we talk about here?
The thing about the "missing basic" is extremely suspect. He talks about just flicking "hunyuanli"/martial ability on like a light switch makes little sense when you are wading in and practicing it. It's a progression, where you must improve every step of the way, not something that just "happens". In yiquan you are reconditioning/overriding your habitual movement patterns that you have been practicing since birth with whole movements, and this is not something you just "trigger".
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Old 08-22-2007, 05:14 AM   #1518
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
QiJin is a private list...invitation only
Ahh...the secret soke council.
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Old 08-22-2007, 05:35 AM   #1519
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
The Missing Basic - the one practice method, a single basic drill that is The Most Ultimately Optimal for developing The Power Formerly Known As Qi...

No I'm not going to tell its name.
OK, but...

Quote:
...I can say at this stage that if I had to pick the top three all-star practices, of what I've learned so far, it would be these three:

1. Control Tiger
2. Ping Bao Zhuang (flat handed 'combat post' standing practice)
3. Huang Rao Pi (spiral splitting practice)

I choose these not cause I like the names or they make me look cool or anything, but because the energetic effect/harvest of these three is the greatest. In terms of TPFKAQ (The Power Formerly Known As Qi).
Quote:
I think you can tell something about where is the pearl in the oyster of any art by clocking what the most senior students do in their own individual practice (rather than averaging over a syllabus or looking at the broad mass of average students).

So in that light, here are the results of my staggeringly unscientific survey of the more advanced shixoing types in the ZongXunWuGuan:

=======================================

70% of their time = basic Hun Yuan Zhuang (combative pose) standing! ... spiced with various subtle shili's directly based on that.

25% of their time = highly combative partner work: push hands, sparring, and related combative stuff

5% of their time = other kinds of "health" zhan zhuang's, walking shili's, mocabu's, fali of all kinds.
I think we can infer what exercise he's talking about.

--Timothy Walters Kleinert

Hakuho-ryu/ Takeda-den Itto-ryu, & Wujifa qigongs
www.internal-aiki.com
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Old 08-22-2007, 08:17 AM   #1520
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Ahh...the secret soke council.
Sour grapes, anyone???

Look, they don't hand out fancy belts or awards. It's a discussion group. And the reason it is private is responses like the I'm quoting above. And the fact that this is happening here is exactly the point of why these kinds of threads are better in the private venue, which in turn drives this information under ground. Counter productive, don't you think???

If we didn't have responses like these, maybe the information wouldn't be in a private discussion group.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-22-2007, 08:42 AM   #1521
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Re: Baseline skillset

My dad, an old farmer and blacksmith, would've said, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." another one... "Hogs' eyes weren't made to look at the moon." I grew up hearing these in context and I don't think he ever used these old sayings in a prejudicial manner. As often stated in threads on this site, working close to the land brings both physical development and a certain insight into human "stuff."

Chuck Clark
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:30 AM   #1522
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Re: Baseline skillset

Yeah, well it's frustrating to be in the position of "just trying to work and train" things, start to get a decent discussion going and then see it get moved elsewhere (I'm used to derailing in public forums, even done it a time or two - so karma sucks ), but I'm not in any kind of position to really contribute anything substantive to this topic other than ask newbie questions and point at it to other people and say, "Yes, yes . . . is good, try!"

Course, I also think everybody should grow up having done hard, manual labor, participated in combat sports and contributed to a theatrical or musical production (we all have our own biases) . . .
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:36 AM   #1523
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
and contributed to a theatrical or musical production
Yikes! nudge nuge, wink wink...

B,
R

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Old 08-22-2007, 09:53 AM   #1524
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Sour grapes, anyone???

Look, they don't hand out fancy belts or awards. It's a discussion group. And the reason it is private is responses like the I'm quoting above. And the fact that this is happening here is exactly the point of why these kinds of threads are better in the private venue, which in turn drives this information under ground. Counter productive, don't you think???

If we didn't have responses like these, maybe the information wouldn't be in a private discussion group.

Best,
Ron
Oh settle down Ron. I didn't mean to offend you.
Me thinks people take themselves too seriously.
There are private, super-secret discussion forums all over the internet. Just not my cup of tea is all. After all, familiarity breeds contempt you know.
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:55 AM   #1525
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

I'm not offended, and I certainly don't mean any offense. But I think my point stands...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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