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Old 08-04-2007, 08:37 AM   #1476
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
The people in this thread, for example, who claim amazing skills, are the ones I am referring to.

I have no doubts about the skills of Ueshiba, Mifune, etc.

I have amazing skills.

Just ask my wife.

Regards,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tarik Ghbeish
MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."




I don't think you'd want to put them in a video on YouTube, Tarik.
Er, at least I hope not.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 08-04-2007 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 08-04-2007, 09:14 AM   #1477
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
[snip]
In my experience there are a lot of people . . . who are really into these things strictly for their own self-aggrandizement or for some sociopathic reason. [snip]

FWIW

Mike
I know someone like that.
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Old 08-04-2007, 10:19 AM   #1478
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
I know someone like that.
Me too.
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Old 08-04-2007, 11:11 AM   #1479
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

I know two or three, myself. You can spot a lot of them because they never have anything substantive to contribute... but they want "respect" for the role they're playing.

Mike
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:54 AM   #1480
tarik
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Hi Cady,

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
I don't think you'd want to put them in a video on YouTube, Tarik.
Er, at least I hope not.
It's unlikely that there'll ever be a video of me on YouTube.

Reading some of these threads is sometimes like wading through cesspool, isn't it? It makes even some of the golden nuggets stink so that you have to wash them off.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:59 PM   #1481
HL1978
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
But how is it on "my terms" when I'm just asking if video, anywhere, heck, even before my time, exists, of people claiming these amazing skills that are so vital, they claim, to understanding aikido, taijiquan, and other arts?

Justin
I'm puzzled when I have offered to work out with you in the past, and as many others have noted, these skills are not readily apparent with video if you are not familiar with them.
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Old 08-08-2007, 01:17 AM   #1482
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Re: Baseline skillset

Hunter,
I don't know why you waste your time talking to Justin. Obviously he isn't really interested in learning anything. He's interested in taking his ''skeptic' pose, and in waiting for someone ''famous'' to tell him what to believe. Preferably in a book somewhere.

It's a classic argument in bad faith.
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Old 08-19-2007, 08:52 AM   #1483
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
Hunter,
I don't know why you waste your time talking to Justin. Obviously he isn't really interested in learning anything. He's interested in taking his ''skeptic' pose, and in waiting for someone ''famous'' to tell him what to believe. Preferably in a book somewhere.

It's a classic argument in bad faith.
Yeah that annyong skepticism. It's much better to believe everything 100% that people tell you, especially when they say they are unable to be moved, or they have the secrets that weren't even written/talked about by the founders of the art.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-19-2007, 09:39 AM   #1484
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Re: Baseline skillset

No, it's better to go see what people are doing in person, feel what's actually happening and be in a better position to make an informed decision whether or not it's worth additional time and effort.
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Old 08-19-2007, 11:10 AM   #1485
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Tongue Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
No, it's better to go see what people are doing in person, feel what's actually happening and be in a better position to make an informed decision whether or not it's worth additional time and effort.
But Budd, if you do that you could be humiliated or [gasp] injured. Oh no.
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Old 08-19-2007, 01:03 PM   #1486
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Baseline skillset

It is curious that Mr. Smith didn't make the effort to go work with Rob and Mike when Jim Sorrentino hosted them earlier this year, almost in Mr. Smith's backyard.

Classic frog-in-the-well syndrome.
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Old 08-19-2007, 01:31 PM   #1487
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
It is curious that Mr. Smith didn't make the effort to go work with Rob and Mike when Jim Sorrentino hosted them earlier this year, almost in Mr. Smith's backyard.

Classic frog-in-the-well syndrome.
This has already been answered.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-19-2007, 04:18 PM   #1488
HL1978
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
Hunter,
I don't know why you waste your time talking to Justin. Obviously he isn't really interested in learning anything. He's interested in taking his ''skeptic' pose, and in waiting for someone ''famous'' to tell him what to believe. Preferably in a book somewhere.

It's a classic argument in bad faith.
I try to be a very helpful guy

Justin, my invitation still stands. You can even borrow my copy of Tomei no chikara if you want and copy the passages. Asuming you can find a 3rd party translator, you will find the same things written that have often been spoken in this thread, if you want reassurance from a far more authoritative figure than myself. Feel free to PM me.

That being said, Justin, I would not act surprised if people interpret your motives to be something else when there have been opportunities to feel this stuff first hand.

Last edited by HL1978 : 08-19-2007 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 08-19-2007, 04:36 PM   #1489
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Justin Smith wrote: View Post
This has already been answered.
By a frog in a well.

Nevertheless, given your own repeated criticisms of the good-faith attempts of several other people on this forum to verbally describe the practices, the internal proprioceptive feeling, the results, it should be quite clear that hands-on empirical investigation is critical to understanding, to prove or disprove. Unwillingness to engage in that kind of hands-on investigation belies your own pretense of good-faith curiosity. Skepticism without the willingness to test one's own questions and assertions is the refuge of a passive-aggressive fool.

Here Hunter, right in your general area, repeatedly and civilly offers to show you what he's been shown and the kind of work that goes into this training and investigation. You decline--no good reason offered--or remain silent, occasionally popping in with a verbal needle or a reiterated question for which you won't show up to get an answer.

A frog croaks in the bottom
Of a well, "Show-me"
"Show-me Show-me" Splash!
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Old 08-19-2007, 06:26 PM   #1490
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Tim Fong wrote: View Post
But Budd, if you do that you could be humiliated or [gasp] injured. Oh no.
If I must be humiliated or injured to learn something I think I'll pass.
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Old 08-19-2007, 06:37 PM   #1491
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Nevertheless, given your own repeated criticisms of the good-faith attempts of several other people on this forum to verbally describe the practices, the internal proprioceptive feeling, the results, it should be quite clear that hands-on empirical investigation is critical to understanding, to prove or disprove.
It is more along the lines of people claiming special skills, but only demonstrating in a non-sparring format, or with a not fully resisting opponent, or not at all, or just exercises, or not on video.

Quote:
you decline--no good reason offered--or remain silent, occasionally popping in with a verbal needle or a reiterated question for which you won't show up to get an answer.
It is your opinion that the reason is not good, of course. If you've been to many of these 'come and I'll show you' things, and when you show up it is something you already know or something you don't want to be 100ft near, you wouldn't be interested in the 'same ol same ol'.

Hunter asked me to do a bench press exercise several ways. It was not claimed at the time that he needed to be present for me to do them. I did them (despite you wanting to believe I don't try stuff out). And now it is 'come see me I'll show you' type of thing.

Any physical skill can be reasonably shown on video. If it is claimed it can't be shown or can only be shown if you stop your life and spend resources on it, the only technique I will practice is 'hold the wallet'.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-19-2007, 07:15 PM   #1492
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I try to be a very helpful guy

Justin, my invitation still stands. You can even borrow my copy of Tomei no chikara if you want and copy the passages. Asuming you can find a 3rd party translator, you will find the same things written that have often been spoken in this thread, if you want reassurance from a far more authoritative figure than myself. Feel free to PM me.

That being said, Justin, I would not act surprised if people interpret your motives to be something else when there have been opportunities to feel this stuff first hand.
Of course, whatever you know, big or small, is your business, Hunter.... but in reality why would you show someone like Justin anything? Do you think he is someone who would be changed and whose personality would change if he knew the truth? What about any potential students Justin might have in the future... would you think that you are helping those people by showing Justin a few bits and pieces or would it be better for those imaginary students if you simply worked to keep Justin out of the teaching ranks of various arts? I'm just curious about what your motivation is. Justin's personal characteristics are pretty well-delineated by now and he's probably a good example to use in discussion about baseline skillsets (and who should be shown) as well as the baseline skillsets themselves. What I'm interested in is considering some of the reasons for why these skills are not very widespread and whether maybe that's not always a bad thing. For instance, do you think O-Sensei would have openly told a Justin Smith anything important about these skills?

Best.

Mike
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Old 08-19-2007, 07:47 PM   #1493
HL1978
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Of course, whatever you know, big or small, is your business, Hunter.... but in reality why would you show someone like Justin anything? Do you think he is someone who would be changed and whose personality would change if he knew the truth? What about any potential students Justin might have in the future... would you think that you are helping those people by showing Justin a few bits and pieces or would it be better for those imaginary students if you simply worked to keep Justin out of the teaching ranks of various arts? I'm just curious about what your motivation is. Justin's personal characteristics are pretty well-delineated by now and he's probably a good example to use in discussion about baseline skillsets (and who should be shown) as well as the baseline skillsets themselves. What I'm interested in is considering some of the reasons for why these skills are not very widespread and whether maybe that's not always a bad thing. For instance, do you think O-Sensei would have openly told a Justin Smith anything important about these skills?

Best.

Mike
Hi Mike, you have felt me, so you know the very little of this skillset that I posses. Whatever I do have, might seem impressive to someone who has yet to feel this stuff, but far less so to anyone familiar with it. This isn't an attempt to be humble on my part, but the truth, there are people with significantly more skill out there than me.

As you well know, anything that I do show or have shown to others, would be worthless unless that person has the interest and dedication to stick with the training to really change their body and how they move, which is a multi year process in which I myself am only in the beginning stages. I understand where you are going, but feel that this stuff should be talked openly, but recognize that only to someone who is truly interested will put the pieces together and only the very dedicated will actualy be able to change their body and make it work.

From a "quality control" standpoint, I tend to agree with you, based off of seeing what has happened to people with an incomplete understanding of martial arts who have taught others. I am probably not the best example of these skills and shouldn't be one to demonstrate them, but if I do happen to get someone interested, then perhaps they will seek out someone to teach them properly.

Mike, you raise some very valid points which I had not considered and I think you are correct with your train of thought, but I am a man of my word, and if I made the offer I will stand by it if Justin approaches me (I merely wanted to offer him a way out and show him that these skills do exist and it is a different mode of movement. I'm in no position to be teaching anyone.). That being said however, I won't make the offer in the future to anyone else until I can better demonstrate this stuff.

Regards,

Hunter

Last edited by HL1978 : 08-19-2007 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 08-19-2007, 08:12 PM   #1494
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Hi Mike, you have felt me, so you know the very little of this skillset that I posses. Whatever I do have, might seem impressive to someone who has yet to feel this stuff, but far less so to anyone familiar with it. This isn't an attempt to be humble on my part, but the truth, there are people with significantly more skill out there than me.
Hi Hunter:

Well, seriously, I was just bringing up the valid point about this complex part of the phenomenon that revolves around Ellis Amdur's "Hidden in Plain Sight" thesis. There's one question about "how was it missed", but there's another question of "who should you show?". It relates to the idea of martial virtue and whether, if someone really cares about any specific martial art, they should show someone something in that art which might be used in a way that despoils the art.

As you know there is a broad spectrum of personalities in martial arts. Should everyone be shown everything? Obviously not. So the question would be to start looking at some extreme personalities (on either end) and try to find where one should draw the line at showing something. Pretty obviously Justin didn't come onto the AikiWeb forum to learn anything or to do any good ... so the question is why, even to satisfy curiosity or to make a point ... would someone think it was worth the trouble.

Of course, Justin just happens to be a convenient extreme from which to start the reasoning, but the reasoning needs to be examined across a wide spectrum of people. I think *some* basics should be more freely disseminated, but I certainly don't think all basics should be given to everyone. In other words, I'm looking at this a good discussion about baseline skillsets... nothing more.

Best.

Mike
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Old 08-19-2007, 10:17 PM   #1495
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Baseline skillset

I thought I heard a frog croaking . . . maybe just an echo.

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
[snip]
Any physical skill can be reasonably shown on video.

Actually, not quite true. The internal connections and movement most emphatically do not come across well, or at all, on video. They have to be felt, hands-on . . . both to feel what the effect on the opponent is, and to feel how the exponent of the skill is working. Without that proprioceptive understanding informing the practice of specific exercises, you will not gain insight or progress.

For example, people can copy some of the basic Aunkai exercises that Akuzawa demonstrates on video clips. But without having a proprioceptive understanding of (for example) the "cross," alignment, what it feels like to be working with the Aunkai concept of axis, the exercises may provide some cursory benefit but no real long-term progress will be made. Akuzawa or Rob John can show, hands-on, the feeling and correction that can launch you on a fruitful, if hard, path of training.


If it is claimed it can't be shown or can only be shown if you stop your life and spend resources on it, the only technique I will practice is 'hold the wallet'.

Hunter, and Dan in other circumstances, offered to demonstrate and show some of what they know and can do for free. Jim Sorrentino's seminar basically just tried to help cover some of Rob's expenses coming halfway around the world to introduce Aunkai practices--if you think Rob or Ark are making money off of this, you forget that they both have regular day jobs. I don't know the specifics of Mike's arrangement with the Sorrentinos, but I was under the impression that he just came there to see what Rob was showing and to show--hands-on--a little of what he works on. The point is that these folks are serious about internal skill practice and are open about sharing at least their basics . . . and all I've ever seen them ask is an open-minded, respectful approach to what they demonstrate, and a commitment to try to consistently practice afterwards (without such a commitment, their time and effort is wasted).
You'll stay where you are. That circular piece of sky up above you must be fascinating.
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Old 08-20-2007, 06:30 AM   #1496
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
If I must be humiliated or injured to learn something I think I'll pass.
The quote was actually 'could be' rather than 'must'. You 'could be' injured or humiliated in your regular training class. I suppose it partly depends how you present yourself and how you train with others.
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Old 08-20-2007, 06:56 AM   #1497
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Re: Baseline skillset

Interesting further discussion on who "should" get access to this stuff. My little side question for those working on these things - isn't there kind of a filter in place already as far as who is going to be able to develop these skills?

It's not as if a seminar (or two, or three) is going to make anyone come away with magic powers. From my very limited understanding, the basics can be shown in person, but then it's up to the practitioner to put in immense quantities of time rewiring the body.

If someone is already putting on the pose of "yeah, I do that", how likely are they to be putting in the work to legitimately get somewhere (or recognize that they've got a long way to go or be willing to accept the feedback that they've got a long way to go OR -- accept the possibility that they may NEVER get there)?

Or on the other side of the coin, if someone is flat-out in denial that these things exist and are valid - such folks are often very good at applying their "filter" to demonstrations or hands-on work so that they coincide with their worldview/belief system. In other words, you can lead a horse to water . . . but you know the rest . . . .

In either case, I don't see a willingness to actually "forge" the skills/body. But I guess I'm asking you folks with more experience - have you seen examples where people were shown these skills, worked on them to develop actual ability and then somewhere else it went badly?

Last edited by Budd : 08-20-2007 at 06:58 AM. Reason: yeti
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Old 08-20-2007, 07:41 AM   #1498
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Interesting further discussion on who "should" get access to this stuff. My little side question for those working on these things - isn't there kind of a filter in place already as far as who is going to be able to develop these skills?

It's not as if a seminar (or two, or three) is going to make anyone come away with magic powers. From my very limited understanding, the basics can be shown in person, but then it's up to the practitioner to put in immense quantities of time rewiring the body.

If someone is already putting on the pose of "yeah, I do that", how likely are they to be putting in the work to legitimately get somewhere (or recognize that they've got a long way to go or be willing to accept the feedback that they've got a long way to go OR -- accept the possibility that they may NEVER get there)?

Or on the other side of the coin, if someone is flat-out in denial that these things exist and are valid - such folks are often very good at applying their "filter" to demonstrations or hands-on work so that they coincide with their worldview/belief system. In other words, you can lead a horse to water . . . but you know the rest . . . .

In either case, I don't see a willingness to actually "forge" the skills/body. But I guess I'm asking you folks with more experience - have you seen examples where people were shown these skills, worked on them to develop actual ability and then somewhere else it went badly?
Good points, Budd. I'll usually prod people a little bit who already claim expertise to see exactly what their motivations are. Only a few people are really interested in exploring an art to these depths unless they have a reasonable body of their peers doing the same thing. In other words, the herd instinct is one of the main factors at work.

The second thing is that there is an IQ threshold to all of this. Not everyone can get it (have the day-to-day insights from smarts and hard work) or would be willing to devote the time and effort. You kind of have to watch people and separate the possibles from the "probably nots" in order to maximize any efforts you're going to spend with the ones who have the right qualities. It would take a special reason (I can't think of one, TBH) to devote time to someone with an obvious personality deficiency.

Personally, I'm old enough to know how many times we misjudge people, etc., so I'm usually willing to show just about anyone the starters, but if they don't show any results and personal insights after a period of time, I quit bothering with it. The ones I watch for ask questions which show they've been thinking and that they've figured a few things out alread *and* they show an increase in skills from the last time I saw them. If people can't get the basics, then it's doubtful that they'll get much else (not that I know much else) beyond that in a reasonable amount of time.

I.e., it's a crap-shoot. Only bright, motivated people will really get it. People who have a "bad heart" shouldn't be even bothered with, in my personal opinion (recognizing that others have their own standards, of course). So generally, the traditional ways of "who to teach" are not that far off, in principle, from the selection processes I sort of fall into with common sense.

Best.

Mike
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Old 08-20-2007, 08:04 AM   #1499
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Re: Baseline skillset

Thanks for the response, Mike.
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Old 08-20-2007, 08:11 AM   #1500
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The second thing is that there is an IQ threshold to all of this. Not everyone can get it (have the day-to-day insights from smarts and hard work)
Ouch... but oh so true
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