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Old 08-13-2007, 12:09 AM   #26
Steven
 
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Now you're getting into the territory of peeing on my head and trying to convince me it's raining.
Well, being as your profile says you're in Seattle, in part, chances are it is raining eh?

Quote:
Sorry, but someone who is jumping up in the air and using the combined momentum of their fall and an exaggerated waist bend to accelerate their uke into the mat is not "pulling up".
With respect, I still don't see what you're talking about. Guess that's because I've been on the receiving end of such technique and have never been injured or knocked out. 25 years and counting.

Quote:
Saying that I see no purpose in accelerating uke into the mat like that other than to inflict harm is not the same as saying anyone who does that is trying to inflict harm.
I'll apologize in advance as I may be mis-understanding, but I believe you did say " I can see it appears to be for the express purpose of smacking his uke's head into the mat as hard as possible. Would that not suggest you are saying he is trying to purposely injure his uke?

Quote:
It could also be that they are doing it without (what I view as a legitimate) purpose, which I think is more likely.
Ummm ... it's a DEMO. Demo's typically are done in a manner different that basic practice, even in the Aikikai. Not to mention these are Mori Sensei's top students and chances are they've done this a million times and have practiced these demo's a million more times to prevent injury. It's called uke trusting shite and shite trusting uke.

Quote:
The fact that you and others, even if there are millions of them, think treating a cooperating uke this way is "normal" makes little difference to me, and does not make it safe or desireable.
Treating uke in what way? I didn't see uke complaining. In fact he kept getting up and attacking and has practiced for many years. I guess if you never practice like this and simply tank for your instructor, not that I"m saying you do that, then I guess I can see how you think this is not safe or desireable.

Quote:
One of my teachers flatly calls it "unethical" and I agree. There are plenty of striking arts that consider it "normal" to beat their hands forcefully on hard objects until they become barely mobile claws riddled with scar tissue. I don't think that's a good idea either.
... and mine say it just good training that makes a good demo while keeping both shite and uke safe. As for the "beat the hands forcibly on hard objects" not my cup of tea, to each his own.

I'll close and say again, accusing Mori Sensei of willfully and purposely trying to slam his uke's head on the mat, your words - see above, is just plain silly. Though I'm sure I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

I'm out .. good training to you -- and watch your head.
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Old 08-13-2007, 06:07 AM   #27
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

You are misunderstanding. I am criticizing what appears to be a stylistic or cultural norm with some of Yoshinkan, not impugning the motives of this particular sensei, which I obviously know nothing about. As Mr. Amdur pointed out, and provided a video to demonstrate, apparently not all of Yoshinkan pile drives their ukes into the mat and bounces heads, but there is a well known history of it in the school going back to Shioda himself.

I have similar complaints about brutality being the norm in many Aikikai schools I have gone to in the US, except the problem there is more in the yanking and cranking department, as opposed to slamming. Most of the people in these schools seem friendly and are not doing anything intentionally malicious, it is just that they have bought into a culture and style in which a certain amount of abuse and brutality are the norm. However, sadists who take it even further seem to find a particularly comfortable home in this environment, and become masters of smiling, passive-agressive uke abuse. Usually I encounter one or several at such places.

Since most Aikido training is kata with a designated uke being cooperative to some extent - often a large extent - I think there should be a higher ethical standard of consideration for uke in practice. I have a lot less problem with such roughness in freeform situations where there is less presumption of putting one's safety in someone else's hands. When both parties are free to really free to attack and defend without being able to hide behind a designated role, it seems more fair. Even so, there is still potential for abuse in terms of differing skill levels. For instance, I once almost got my trachea crushed by an instructor of a Judo school on my first (and last) day of training there. He was so much better than me at rolling I was practically helpless, which he of course knew and exploited to his delight. With martial arts, just like in every other aspect of life, there are hordes of people out there ready to take advantage of you for fun and profit.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 08-13-2007 at 06:15 AM.
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Old 08-13-2007, 06:44 AM   #28
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Steven Miranda wrote: View Post
Treating uke in what way? I didn't see uke complaining. In fact he kept getting up and attacking and has practiced for many years. I guess if you never practice like this and simply tank for your instructor, not that I"m saying you do that, then I guess I can see how you think this is not safe or desireable.
I guess I'll comment on this bit too, since it's such a load of garbage. The idea that one would see uke "complaining" in this brief video is absurd, and you know it. Not seeing it demonstrates nothing. Neither does the fact that he keeps getting up, or keeps training at the same dojo. Battered spouses often come back for hugs right after beatings, and stay in abusive relationships for years. These comments obviously do not address the points I was making, and are simply disingenuous rhetorical tricks.

The last bit is a textbook logical fallacy, called a 'false dichotomy'. There is no either/or between accelerating a falling uke into the mat so that his head bounces and 'tanking'. Whether or not one 'tanks' has to do with what happens between uke's attack and uke losing his or her balance/falling down. What I am discussing is accelerating uke into the mat after they are already falling down.

The fact that you keep resorting to fallacies and dirty tricks makes me think I hit a nerve. If I'm simply some yayhoo spouting nonsense, why the desperate argumentative measures?
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Old 08-13-2007, 08:23 AM   #29
philippe willaume
 
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Kevin
I am not from a Yoshinkan school but I assume that if students felt that they were snotted to buggery, surely they would leave the club/organisation no?

So put the aketon, the hauberk the gambeson, the shield and the great helm back to their barrel and whilst you are at it unsaddle your destrier, I am relatively confident that the RSPHABYU do not need your crusading on their behalf

There are many people that have the same outrage as you but it is regarding fluffy & wishy-washy aikido (i.e. in MMA parlance definitely not of the heterosexual kind).
If some people are happy to train hard good for them, is some other prefers much softer form, good for them as well.
As long as no animal or children have been abused during the making of the movie and it remains between concenting adults, it has to be fine.

Regardless of all that personally I do not find anything especially mean in the video, but again my middle names are Donatien Alphonse-François…..

Phil (aki Urukai)

Ps for those who wonder what RSPHABYU stands for it is Royal Society for the Protection of Horribly Abused and Battred Yoshinkan Uke.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-13-2007, 08:31 AM   #30
Steven
 
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Falacies and dirty tricks? Sounds like the only one who's had a nerve hit is you Kevin. I simply suggested that your accusation that Mori Sensei is purposely brutalizing his uke's is false. I am entitled to my opinion as you are yours. I simply disagree with your first post to which you make this accusation. Much like you diagree with my post.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 08-13-2007, 08:48 AM   #31
dps
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
This demonstration is definitely better. The uke is not simply just running, actually applying more punches.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y
Uke is stopping after each attack.

David
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:29 AM   #32
Ellis Amdur
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=178

Quote:
Hard training in those days meant blood, sweat, and tears, and I am rather ashamed to admit, included doing your best to slam the other fellow into the mat. If uke's head hit the mat in shihonage, that was a good, hard technique! I learned this from Day One, when I first applied to be accepted as an uchideshi.

Shioda Sensei asked me whether I could take ukemi, and I made the silly mistake of saying I could, based on a relatively low rank in judo at the time but no experience of aikido whatsoever. While Kancho watched, I was then told to grip the wrist of Takashi Kushida who, with Kyoichi Inoue, were the other two live-in students in the dojo at that time. Kushida slammed me down with shihonage and my head hit the mat with a thud. This process was repeated many times and each time I got up I was flung down again, until I ended up crawling around the mat, not quite sure who or where I was. I was concussed and had a headache for some days afterwards, but apparently I had passed the "entrance examination" and was allowed to enter the dojo.

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Old 08-13-2007, 11:03 AM   #33
Aiki1
 
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote: View Post

The fact that you and others, even if there are millions of them, think treating a cooperating uke this way is "normal" makes little difference to me, and does not make it safe or desireable. One of my teachers flatly calls it "unethical" and I agree.
I agree, I call it out-and-out abuse and brutality. I've seen it for many years, in many different Aikido demonstrations and dojo etc. After 25 years of teaching Aikido, I've experienced many different styles and teachers. Abuse perpetrated during the demonstration and teaching of Aikido is rampant, well-known among people who are willing to see it and admit it's existence, and completely unnecessary.

I know it's divisive to say this, because it appears to be a direct attack on either a teacher or a style etc. But there's no way to discuss it openly other than being honest about one's perceptions and experiences. In my experience, a lot of what is called Aikido is simply a demonstration of Aikido techniques, which I've seen a lot of instructors take advantage of to make themselves look powerful etc. In the end, it's the uke who pays, unfortunately, and the many people in Aikido who think they are learning something that they're not necessarily really learning.

I remember talking with Terry Dobson once many years ago, he was saying that he believed that a lot of why he got sick was because of all the hard falls he took all those years at Hombu dojo. He died a while ago.

Of course there are a lot of people who have a different experience. They're lucky.

I have nothing against "hard" Aikido, although it's not my style or preference. But there's a limit to what is acceptable. Nor does "hard" mean effective, in fact often it can defeat it's effectiveness, especially in "real life."

Last edited by Aiki1 : 08-13-2007 at 11:07 AM.

Larry Novick
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ACE Aikido
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Old 08-13-2007, 11:47 AM   #34
Don_Modesto
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Kevin
I am not from a Yoshinkan school but I assume that if students felt that they were snotted to buggery, surely they would leave the club/organisation no?
With this LOGIC (often being the opposite of PSYCHOlogic), women would only be battered once by a man. Typically, they blame themselves ("I burned the toast," "I have to learn better UKEMI") rather than impute nastiness to their abuser. CAVEAT EMPTOR.

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I agree, I call it out-and-out abuse and brutality. I've seen it for many years, in many different Aikido demonstrations and dojo etc. After 25 years of teaching Aikido, I've experienced many different styles and teachers. Abuse perpetrated during the demonstration and teaching of Aikido is rampant, well-known among people who are willing to see it and admit it's existence, and completely unnecessary.
Thank you. To repeat the salient point, "Among people who are WILLING TO SEE IT."

Quote:
I know it's divisive to say this, because it appears to be a direct attack on either a teacher or a style etc. But there's no way to discuss it openly other than being honest about one's perceptions and experiences. In my experience, a lot of what is called Aikido is simply a demonstration of Aikido techniques, which I've seen a lot of instructors take advantage of to make themselves look powerful etc. In the end, it's the uke who pays, unfortunately, and the many people in Aikido who think they are learning something that they're not necessarily really learning.
Well put. Thank you.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 08-13-2007, 12:04 PM   #35
Jerome Braun
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

I've been on the receiving end of some of this type of behavior myself (Yoshinkan, nidan). It's not just "good hard training". It's more like "good hard game-playing".

The part where he plows the guy's head into the mat, then pats him as though he's a child to urge him up is the part where I think you can see the situation most clearly (about 0:40). Mori pretty clearly accelerates uke's head to the mat. It's purposeful. It's unnecessary.

If uke has practiced a million times to receive this "technique", what are the chances that we happen to see the one time he messes up? It's a lot more likely that uke can't really take this "technique".

Mori was a likable guy back in the early 90's, having interacted briefly with him a couple of times. The videos rather glorify him
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Old 08-13-2007, 12:07 PM   #36
darin
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
This demonstration is definitely better. The uke is not simply just running, actually applying more punches.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y
I think those guys are doing some form of Yoseikan aikido. Takeno Sensei's demo was better though. These aikibudo guys are good but he's in a different league...
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Old 08-13-2007, 12:17 PM   #37
darin
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

When doing nodowa oashi (palm push to the chin) and mukae doashi (irmi nage) I usually put my hand behind uke's head so as to support it as he gets thrown. You still get the same effect (feet come out from underneath etc) as those hard throws but with a lot less chance of injuries.
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Old 08-13-2007, 02:07 PM   #38
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Steven Miranda wrote: View Post
Falacies and dirty tricks? Sounds like the only one who's had a nerve hit is you Kevin. I simply suggested that your accusation that Mori Sensei is purposely brutalizing his uke's is false. I am entitled to my opinion as you are yours. I simply disagree with your first post to which you make this accusation. Much like you diagree with my post.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree.
More complete BS. In fact, the kind of dissembling and obfuscation you keep resorting to always hits a nerve with me. I can't stand being lied to. I have detailed my objections to a lot of things you said, and it certainly can not all be summed up as "I simply suggested..." Vague declarations about relativism and freedom of speech are more irrelevant nonsense.
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Old 08-13-2007, 02:44 PM   #39
Ron Tisdale
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Now people can see why I was ducking and running when this phase of the topic came up.

Difficult issues...I've got some herniated disks in my neck from bad falls from hard throws. Most of that is due to my own over eagerness at times. I get caught up in attacking, and don't protect myself enough, because I actually LIKE feeling powerfull throws (silly boy ).

Oh well...it's not for everyone, some people do abuse it, others not. Some people are over eager, and then learn better after they get injured and walk around in pain 6 mos at a time, and need to get needles stuck in their neck to compensate.

In my home dojo I don't think I was ever thrown harder than I attacked. Well, maybe once or twice...but that was probably my own fault too.

Best,
Ron (this probably just makes me sound masochistic)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-13-2007, 02:45 PM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

You know what though? Steven was polite to you during this entire conversation. Can't say the same for your posts.

Best,
Ron
Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote: View Post
More complete BS. In fact, the kind of dissembling and obfuscation you keep resorting to always hits a nerve with me. I can't stand being lied to. I have detailed my objections to a lot of things you said, and it certainly can not all be summed up as "I simply suggested..." Vague declarations about relativism and freedom of speech are more irrelevant nonsense.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-13-2007, 03:00 PM   #41
Adam Alexander
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I agree, I call it out-and-out abuse and brutality. I've seen it for many years, in many different Aikido demonstrations and dojo etc. After 25 years of teaching Aikido, I've experienced many different styles and teachers. Abuse perpetrated during the demonstration and teaching of Aikido is rampant, well-known among people who are willing to see it and admit it's existence, and completely unnecessary.
Some of us like that type of technique. I'd of never started Aikido if my first exposure was Ki or most Aikikai I've seen. You say that it's not necessary, I say I'd of never got on the bus had I not seen hard techniques as my first introduction.

I'm not anywhere near what I'd call an ideal person, but I've been made better than I was because of Aikido. Had I jumped on board with one of the other local arts that were hard, I'd of been totally lead astray. Maybe those of us who really need Aikido in our lives are best served by the techniques that appear the hardest.

That's my experience. If those uke had an issue, they're big boys, they'd move on.
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Old 08-13-2007, 03:03 PM   #42
Aikibu
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I agree, I call it out-and-out abuse and brutality. I've seen it for many years, in many different Aikido demonstrations and dojo etc. After 25 years of teaching Aikido, I've experienced many different styles and teachers. Abuse perpetrated during the demonstration and teaching of Aikido is rampant, well-known among people who are willing to see it and admit it's existence, and completely unnecessary.

I know it's divisive to say this, because it appears to be a direct attack on either a teacher or a style etc. But there's no way to discuss it openly other than being honest about one's perceptions and experiences. In my experience, a lot of what is called Aikido is simply a demonstration of Aikido techniques, which I've seen a lot of instructors take advantage of to make themselves look powerful etc. In the end, it's the uke who pays, unfortunately, and the many people in Aikido who think they are learning something that they're not necessarily really learning.

I remember talking with Terry Dobson once many years ago, he was saying that he believed that a lot of why he got sick was because of all the hard falls he took all those years at Hombu dojo. He died a while ago.

Of course there are a lot of people who have a different experience. They're lucky.

I have nothing against "hard" Aikido, although it's not my style or preference. But there's a limit to what is acceptable. Nor does "hard" mean effective, in fact often it can defeat it's effectiveness, especially in "real life."
Agreed...I have had way too many injuries over the years taking Ukemi from Demonstrators who wish to polish their "teachnique" showing the aiki-audiance it's 'effectiveness" and they're not honest about it. They will start out accepting Uke very softly and then "finish" hard. Uke nevers see this coming trusting Nage and ends up on the mat in pain.

Once I had to protect myself during an demo with an Yonshikan/Shodokan style Yudansha as he tried Shionage and partially separated my shoulder with his hard technique. On the second try I had to hit him very hard in the ribs (knocking the wind out of him) to "persuede" him not to hurt me again (also suggesting he was way too open. ). I deeply regret it to this day not because I protected myself but because I got angry and, reacted way too strongly.

I don't mind hard technique... but Nage be he/she be a Yudansha Big Shot or not should be HONEST about it wih UKE.

My Sensei Michael Fowler also fired me a few times in my early days to emphasize that Aikido is not about fighting, or winning, or hurting someone out of proportion to thier attack, especially during practice.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 08-13-2007 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 08-13-2007, 03:13 PM   #43
Aiki1
 
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

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Adam Alexander wrote: View Post
Some of us like that type of technique. I'd of never started Aikido if my first exposure was Ki or most Aikikai I've seen. You say that it's not necessary, I say I'd of never got on the bus had I not seen hard techniques as my first introduction.

I'm not anywhere near what I'd call an ideal person, but I've been made better than I was because of Aikido. Had I jumped on board with one of the other local arts that were hard, I'd of been totally lead astray. Maybe those of us who really need Aikido in our lives are best served by the techniques that appear the hardest.

That's my experience. If those uke had an issue, they're big boys, they'd move on.
I actually agree with you - because to me, there is a big difference between hard throws/techniques, and abuse/brutality. I have nothing to say about people liking hard techniques, that's their perogative. Nothing wrong there in my book. But if what you are saying - and I don't think you are - is that you needed the throw to end in what is to me an unnecessary movement that can cause a concussion, then I would say that's something to look at.

Yoshinkan, like almost any style of Aikido, can be done really hard - nothing wrong with that - or it can be done brutally - something is wrong with that for me.

Lastly, I've seen people taken in by Aikido instructors many times - en mass in fact. Some of them otherwise quite intelligent people. That to me doesn't mean that they will know what is really in their best interest and follow it....

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
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Old 08-13-2007, 03:29 PM   #44
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

What is the need to throw hard?.....soft io so much more effective.
Mary
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Old 08-13-2007, 03:52 PM   #45
Adam Alexander
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
...you needed the throw to end in what is to me an unnecessary movement that can cause a concussion, then I would say that's something to look at.
Sh'te applies the level of intensity that his uke can handle. By pushing uke to his limits, he continues to progress. If there was nothing to push uke, he'd have no reason. Strong uke, strong sh'te. Strong sh'te, strong uke.

There was nothing wrong with that demo.

If you want to imply accusations of brutality or abuse that are independant of this (or those) videos, then start a new thread. You should probably entitle it "pushing one's self is self-abuse". Or, more to what might be the feeling behind the posts,"Pre-war styles aren't real Aikido".

I'm not judging you or what you do. But, I've never understood why people who wish to just dance on the mat didn't just take up dancing instead of Aikido.

Different strokes for different folks. I liked it though.


Mary, it's fun and exciting.
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:07 PM   #46
mathewjgano
 
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

It was hard for me to see very clearly, but it seemed to me he was dropping them on their shoulders/upper back, though the room for error did seem very slight and of course heads did hit a couple times. I think the first technique looked good on both "sides" though; uke didn't hit his head, yet the sensei still maintained that penetrating connection through the upper torso. If he was trying to hit the head on the ground I imagine uke would have hit head first and I don't think that happened (though, again, I had a hard time seeing them very clearly).
At Tsubaki dojo we practice a very different form of shiho nage than anyone I've seen; with the sole intention of protecting the head. While I personally prefer this method, I can't fault others for training in a more dangerous manner.
Regarding the whole spousal abuse comparison: while I agree any maliciousness would be (or should be) a crime, I think presuming a direct reflection between these techniques and an abusive husband is a bit over the top. It looked no more dangerous than many of the suplexes of wrestling...though admittedly I'm relatively "new."
Take care everyone,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:09 PM   #47
Aiki1
 
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Adam Alexander wrote: View Post
Sh'te applies the level of intensity that his uke can handle. By pushing uke to his limits, he continues to progress. If there was nothing to push uke, he'd have no reason. Strong uke, strong sh'te. Strong sh'te, strong uke.

There was nothing wrong with that demo.

If you want to imply accusations of brutality or abuse that are independant of this (or those) videos, then start a new thread. You should probably entitle it "pushing one's self is self-abuse". Or, more to what might be the feeling behind the posts,"Pre-war styles aren't real Aikido".

I'm not judging you or what you do. But, I've never understood why people who wish to just dance on the mat didn't just take up dancing instead of Aikido.

Different strokes for different folks. I liked it though.
If you want to have a discussion, that's fine. I've been very civil, realizing that this kind of subject is very charged. Your post is insulting and donwright ugly. I'm not interested in that.

Larry Novick
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ACE Aikido
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:47 PM   #48
Adam Alexander
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
If you want to have a discussion, that's fine. I've been very civil, realizing that this kind of subject is very charged. Your post is insulting and donwright ugly. I'm not interested in that.
No offense intended.

I don't believe I was doing anything different than any poster who made any comment about another's Aikido. One person implies brutality. I flipped the coin and accused excessive softness. One person says it's not Aikido. I flipped the coin and called the other extreme dancing.

The biggest difference is that I offer an excellent reason for hard techniques. To help uke improve ukemi.

Either way, whatever gets you through the day.
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Old 08-13-2007, 05:00 PM   #49
Aiki1
 
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Adam Alexander wrote: View Post
No offense intended.

I don't believe I was doing anything different than any poster who made any comment about another's Aikido. One person implies brutality. I flipped the coin and accused excessive softness. One person says it's not Aikido. I flipped the coin and called the other extreme dancing.

The biggest difference is that I offer an excellent reason for hard techniques. To help uke improve ukemi.

Either way, whatever gets you through the day.
Sorry, nope. You quoted me and responded directly. Your statements and implications were clear. Whatever gets you through the day.

Larry Novick
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ACE Aikido
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Old 08-13-2007, 05:18 PM   #50
aikidoc
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

The throw definitely looks like what I have seen Shioda do on tape. It definitely puts the neck and upper back at risk-more the neck. Also the possibility of a head injury is of great concern since the person is being driven straight down-head stops, brain continues to move - voila concussion. If the back of the brain hits the skull then we have issues of coordination as the cerebellum is being injured.

So, from what I saw the risk of a bad whiplash or strain injury or a broken neck or a concussion are all possible if the uke is not able to take the fall. Dangerous at best. IMHO.

As to Adam's comments, let me just say there are very effective iriminages taking the uke's balance out without driving the head and neck straight into the ground. If you want to realistically finish them off so they don't get up from it, then that is a good move. Does it take a broken neck or a severe concussion with permanent repercussions to drive the dangerous aspect of this home?
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