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Old 08-07-2007, 08:45 AM   #76
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

[quote=Giancarlo DiPierro;185590]

And since the founder is dead, I don't think he is in any position to comment on what is and is not aikido. However, when he was alive he once remarked that what his son Kisshomaru was teaching was not his aikido, and his son has probably been the strongest influence on the development of post-war aikido, particuarly in the US aikikai-affiliated organizations. So perhaps none of what people in the US are doing today can be said to be the aikido of the founder..[/ QUOTE]

Correct. That is, if they are sparring.

Now what is aikido again?

It can take too long to explain the workings of the universe but O'Sensei tried. Here is a quote from the lectures by O'sensei forum on Aikido Journal:

"Now aikido is the name given to our practice of the Way to attain oneness with the spirit and body of the Universe, and the Way of unification with the light of harmony.

For example, if there is something dirty on earth, insects come and clean it up. Insects, fish, birds and all other animals have their own way of taking care of impurities in this way.

As human beings we must purify ourselves from all sins and impurities and each accomplish our own God-given missions. This is what aikido offers, and it is for this purpose that you (addressing the Byakko Shinko Kai audience) offer “The World Peace Prayer” which Goi Sensei advocates. However, if you pray in words only, it does not work. You must actually live up to the prayer, otherwise it will be of no avail.

(2)
Aikido is the martial art (bu) of truth; it is the work of love.

It is the way to protect all living things of this world, that is, aikido is a compass that gives life to all things.

It is the manifestation of takemusu6 that has given birth to all martial techniques that have so far been created.

The martial arts born therefrom are the law to protect the growth of everything existing in the world in accordance with the law of life and growth of all nature."

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-07-2007 at 08:48 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:13 AM   #77
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Everything noted above can be accomplished through the practice of randori (as a form of "sparring") if done appropriately. Saotome, M. once called this form of sparring "aikido kumite"... and then said, "Very good, but very difficult to do."

Everyone must find their own Way and be responsible for it and practice for the sake of the practice.

Chuck Clark
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:36 AM   #78
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
Everything noted above can be accomplished through the practice of randori (as a form of "sparring") if done appropriately. Saotome, M. once called this form of sparring "aikido kumite"... and then said, "Very good, but very difficult to do."

Everyone must find their own Way and be responsible for it and practice for the sake of the practice.
Good point, Mr. Clark.
They can also be achieved through the integrous practice of any technique; for practices sake. But it is, like I feel you are saying also, within the form of aiki to be found, or 'stolen' , as you say. (I like to think that it was offered and I accepted. But that's the same difference, I suppose.) Not easy,agreed. But easier than a life wasted in illusion. From where I stand.

Jen

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Old 08-07-2007, 10:33 AM   #79
CNYMike
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Well, I"m not sure sure on that ....
I've worked with senior students in Aikido who don't let me throw them unless I get it just right and give me pointers. So yes, there are PLENTY of people who know the material better than me.

Quote:
At least in my case I trained in arts without sparing for a lot longer then I have in arts with sparing ....
My sparring experience has been intermittent over the years, too, although I was doing karate (and sparring) for a year and a half before I started Aikido. And when I returned to it, I stayed in other systems where we spar, although as I noted, it's been in Jun Fan where I've been doing the most.

I also never got it in my head that one art or another would make me invincible, and it helps that my first karate sensei kept saying (A) every move has a countermove, (B) you won't win all the time, and (C) there's always someone out there who knows something you don't. I think that's a healthy perspective, although hard to stick to sometimes.
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Old 08-07-2007, 10:41 AM   #80
CNYMike
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
..... getting caught up in whether it's called aikido or not because you don't care for some of the content strikes me as potentially another battle of ego ....
It's not. As I see it, in every martial arts class there are two things going on: Teaching the techniques and passing down the system that contains them. That's where the questions of content become important. The audience for the techniques is there in the room; the audience for the system is the future generations of students who will learn from whomever in that room becomes a teacher someday.

So if there are certain things that make Aikido what it is and certain things that lead you astray, it seems to me that if you cross that line, it's not Aikido anymore. Period. That doesn't mean it's bad and it can't be taught, but it might be more appropriate to give it a new identity.
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Old 08-07-2007, 11:06 AM   #81
CNYMike
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
.... And again my question to you is who has the right to define what is and is not aikido? ....
Well, based on your next quote:

Quote:
.... My "problem" with your original and subsequent posts is mostly with your explanation for why there is no freestyle resistance training in aikido. I believe that the reason for this began with the historical development of aikido from Daito-ryu and persists today for political reasons and the inherent unwillingness of people within a Japanese-style hierarchy to change, particularly in ways that might threaten the legitimacy of that hierarchy. I don't buy that there are any good pedagogical reasons (or good reasons of any kind, really) for the lack of this kind of training, and further I think its absence has allowed aikido to develop in ways that have led it away from what the founder was doing both physically and philosophically and increasingly towards a practice that is both martially and spiritually deficient.
I guess you do. Either way, I'm stupid and don't know nothin'. You win; I'll shut up now.
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Old 08-07-2007, 12:39 PM   #82
DonMagee
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
I've worked with senior students in Aikido who don't let me throw them unless I get it just right and give me pointers. So yes, there are PLENTY of people who know the material better than me.

My sparring experience has been intermittent over the years, too, although I was doing karate (and sparring) for a year and a half before I started Aikido. And when I returned to it, I stayed in other systems where we spar, although as I noted, it's been in Jun Fan where I've been doing the most.

I also never got it in my head that one art or another would make me invincible, and it helps that my first karate sensei kept saying (A) every move has a countermove, (B) you won't win all the time, and (C) there's always someone out there who knows something you don't. I think that's a healthy perspective, although hard to stick to sometimes.
It comes down to personal experience. We are both lucky to find out where we fit in. I find it impossible to get honest training without sparing. Too many egos are involved, people throwing half hearted attacks just so you can't throw them and they can give you advice. Then they let you throw them. People not letting you throw them without making it obvious they are letting you just because they wear black belts. Constant aggravation when you question the principles of a technique to try to understand it only to see the frustration in th eyes of the teacher that takes your question as a challenge to their ability to do martial arts. I'm not saying my aikido teacher is like this, but I have had lots of run ins with teachers like this. Each and every one was against sparing. In fact the biggest ego's I've ever met where against sparing.

I find it's the sparing that brings truth to the training. For example, I've been told "I don't think any bjj guy could take any of my students down". This is a silly statement that reflects ego. The silliest part about this is that if you asked if he would like to have a student spar you or another bjj friend of yours, you would be told without hesitation "I'm sorry we do not believe in sparing." or "We are too deadly and do not want to hurt you". So now we are back to conjecture and theory instead of positive undeniable truth.

For example, I can do armbar drills all day long. My partner knows I'm going for an armbar, he can point out weakness. He can say "Squeeze your knees more" and yank his arm out. Or he can say " break my posture more" and turn away, etc. And I can make that armbar look very nice. In fact it might very well be a great armbar, and I can teach it to others and we can all look great doing this armbar. But we simply do not know if my armbar is any good. We have a good theory, and if any of us has actually used an armbar in real life, then our theory has even more merit. But lets just say 10 generations goes by with nobody testing this armbar. We just pound out 500 reps of the armbar a class, both sides. Are we still sure we passed down the armbar as it was intended? We are driving only on faith, like a religon. Was the founders armbar even a technique, maybe we talk about that, what about setting it up, was it just a principle?

Obviously you have read this argument a thousand times so you know where I'm going. Until I actually armbar someone who is trying to do everything then can to stop me, I don't know if my armbar is good or not. I don't know if I learned my armbar correctly. I'm just hoping I have a perfectionist teacher, and every single one of his teachers was also perfect, and that I learn 100% perfect.

That is not to say that doing 500 armbars a day is not going to make my armbar tighter. But this is only if I also actually use my armbar so I know where the holes are.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:20 PM   #83
Adam Alexander
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Some time back, there was this thread titled Proving Yourself.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...hlight=proving

I think the following two quotes did a great job citing opposing positions. (Larry Camejo requoted without permission )

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Hi Jean,

The above is a great point and a major reason why I think many do not understand the direct physical practicality of applied Aikido principle or technique. As per your post above, revelation comes through situations where there is no pretense of cooperation or creation of a false sense of harmony (i.e. one where you must depend on your partner to not resist your movements and by extension have "effective" waza). In sparring from early on in ones Aikido training one learns ones own weaknesses, strengths and that of others and can train to improve on these areas from very early on. It is these people who tend to be able to apply things reflexively when it is required. Focus on kata alone does not build reflexive ability. Takemusu aiki is also impossible if one cannot allow the subconscious to operate and find the right movement for the situation.

Imho I think part of the reason why many in Aikido do not experience the revelations you referred to above is because many do not engage in some sort of constructive, graduated form of training (from no resistance to full resistance) that builds awareness, reflexes, subconscious reaction and automatic mind/body pathways while maintaining technical integrity.

Regarding my own experiences:

Real World: 8 on 1 ambush/mugging attempt. Kotegaeshi on lead attacker made him my shield against his buddies giving me time to improve my position, open my distance between them and regroup. They decided not to pursue the point after realizing that they had inflicted a good bit of injury on their main attacker (who by then also had a sprained wrist) in trying to get at me..

Sparring in other dojos: Have done well in using Aikido waza during Judo and Jujutsu randori for throws especially. In one case the Judoka ended up on his back on the floor looking up at the ceiling and not quite understanding how he got there.

I actually train in Jujutsu also now to cover combat ranges that are not in my Aikido syllabus (e.g. ground work and clinch range) but my first line of defence will always be coming from my Aikido training. It works because our method thankfully allows for a lot of sparring from early on so one learns a few things about dealing with a serious opponent/attacker as well as the mindset / body tactics required to keep oneself in control.

Just my 2 cents.
LC
Quote:
Adam Alexander wrote: View Post
Larry,

I like most current styles of Aikido staying away from sparring. What you learn in ten minutes of sparring will keep you busy for a year. I think the ego-gratification that is built into sparring (generally) is very slippery. Before a school knows it, rather than sparring being a tool that only needs to be used once in a great while, you end up putting an emphasis on it in the curriculum (sp?).

I think that would have the same effect as etiquette and chain of command in a dojo being de-emphasized. Behavior gets mushy real quick (atleast I acted like an a**hole in some situations because I was following the example of someone who had little respect for them).

I prefer to stick to the extreme. When someone thinks they're ready, they'll find a test.

On the subject of resisting ukes, when I've been out, I didn't encounter any "real life" resisting ukes.
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:38 PM   #84
CNYMike
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
.... I find it's the sparing that brings truth to the training. For example, I've been told "I don't think any bjj guy could take any of my students down". This is a silly statement that reflects ego ....
Unless it's true. And you've probably grappled enough to know that the person who ends up on the bottom is in serious trouble; I've noted that from the reaplys on Spike. Makes me wonder if the reasons so many systems put a premium on stability is because they want to avoid that situation in the first place. But I digress ...

Quote:
The silliest part about this is that if you asked if he would like to have a student spar you or another bjj friend of yours, you would be told without hesitation "I'm sorry we do not believe in sparing." or "We are too deadly and do not want to hurt you". So now we are back to conjecture and theory instead of positive undeniable truth.
It's not all that silly. Think about it: Let's say someone claims a certain technique can break your neck. You say, "let's spar and test it!" If that person succeeds, you are dead. If it fails (assuming he did everything correctly in the first place), he's emabarrassed.

Embarrassment vs. a human life is no contest -- the life wins. Of course, you can always agree to get it to position, but then you never know if it leads to a break, bringing us back to the question.

So I'm not against sparring and not saying it's bad -- I've jut always had trouble with it -- but safety considerations put limits on that. Unless you don't care .... and then you are dangerous and I'm running for the door.
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Old 08-07-2007, 06:39 PM   #85
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
Unless it's true.
I'm going to hazard that you haven't grappled with a BJJer before, amirite?

Also: Don, I like the armbar analogy.

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 08-07-2007 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 08-07-2007, 10:16 PM   #86
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Of course, you can always agree to get it to position, but then you never know if it leads to a break, bringing us back to the question.
I'm taking you've never had a guillotine applied on you? You don't need to break someone/s neck or arm to realize you're breaking something. You'd be tapping desperately way before then.

Quote:
Makes me wonder if the reasons so many systems put a premium on stability is because they want to avoid that situation in the first place.
And yet so little actually bother to train for when it does.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 08-07-2007 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:51 AM   #87
darin
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Nice music. Very relaxing...
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:53 AM   #88
darin
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Sorry was talking about this link

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9OqMLzVKAJs
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:22 AM   #89
deepsoup
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

There was a point towards the end of that video where I really thought they were about to kiss, I was quite disappointed that it didn't happen.
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Old 08-08-2007, 06:11 AM   #90
DonMagee
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
Unless it's true. And you've probably grappled enough to know that the person who ends up on the bottom is in serious trouble; I've noted that from the reaplys on Spike. Makes me wonder if the reasons so many systems put a premium on stability is because they want to avoid that situation in the first place. But I digress ...
Ahh, but is there anyone out there who is so skilled there is no greater? If there really is an instructor out there so skilled that no bjj guy on the planet can take him down, I'd love to be his uchi deshi, hell, I'd be his slave. The statement I made is only a statement of ego. Anyone who has ever done any sparing knows there is always someone out there who can kick your butt. I asked a bunch of guys I trained with if they thought they could be any aikidoka they might encounter. These guys give no respect to anything not sport martial arts, yet they still all replied that there had to be a few that could do it for real and beat them. Just on statistics alone.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
It's not all that silly. Think about it: Let's say someone claims a certain technique can break your neck. You say, "let's spar and test it!" If that person succeeds, you are dead. If it fails (assuming he did everything correctly in the first place), he's emabarrassed.

Embarrassment vs. a human life is no contest -- the life wins. Of course, you can always agree to get it to position, but then you never know if it leads to a break, bringing us back to the question.

So I'm not against sparring and not saying it's bad -- I've jut always had trouble with it -- but safety considerations put limits on that. Unless you don't care .... and then you are dangerous and I'm running for the door.
I agree, there has to be limits, but the reality is those limits are far less then what most non-sparing believers will lead you to believe. A good example is the knee break kick. Everyone knows by now that breaking the knee with a kick is actually a very hard thing to do. It requires expert timing, and proper position on the attacker, otherwise the kick simply moves their leg and hurts. Yet I can't count the number of times this move is listed as a way a non-sport martial artist with no sparing would be a MMA fighter. The silliest part is that would restrict this from the ring. If it was that dangerous there would indeed be a rule. Another big one I hear is finger breaks. We have seen finger, hand, and even ankle breaks in MMA competition. It almost never ends the fight. The only reason it is illegal is because of the recovery time required to get back to training after you break a few fingers. Fingers suck to break. Just imagine how effective it's going to be against a guy who actually wants to kill you vs a guy who just wants to win a sporting event.

The real dangerous techniques don't need to be proven, logic tells us an eye gouge puts out an eye, repeated blows to the back of the skull will kill you, etc. However, most deadly techniques fall into four categories.

1) Techniques that we think might work, but have no constant proof and in my opinion probably are not a real threat. (My reverse punch to the chest will stop your heart.)
2) Techniques we know work, but can test your ability to get into position. We all know dropping elbows on the back of the head/spine will kill you. No need to test it, but do you have the knowledge and skills to take a person's back?
3) Techniques that we know will work and have safe equivalents. If I can't punch you in the face from this range, I probably can't eye gouge you from it either.
4) Techniques we know will work, but the context they are used in is in question. For example, I can knee you in the groin to pass your guard (my groin would be impossible to knee, only my butt would be exposed) or eye gouge from the bottom of the mount while getting punches rained on my face. These are testable with a little creative thinking. I'd be willing to put on a cup and put you in my guard and see if you can knee my groin. I'd be willing to put on some goggles and rain punches on your head and see if you can touch my eyes before you can't take the blows any longer.

I'm glad you don't think sparing is bad. I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just using your posts as a spring board to get my point across to others who might not consider sparing a valid choice for training.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:29 AM   #91
G DiPierro
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
It's not all that silly. Think about it: Let's say someone claims a certain technique can break your neck. You say, "let's spar and test it!" If that person succeeds, you are dead. If it fails (assuming he did everything correctly in the first place), he's emabarrassed.
In aikido many throwing techniques could potentially be used to break someone's neck. They would involve getting the uke upside down and then dropping or throwing him onto his head. For obvious reasons, they are not practiced or normally even taught this way .

In many cases, if you can control someone enough to get him into a position to break his neck, you can control him enough to throw him instead, however this is not universally true. I was rolling with a local BJJ instructor a while back and he tried to apply a flying armbar. Although he had decent control of the arm, while he was upside down trying to submit me, I lifted him several inches off of the ground. Of course I did not drop him, but when we discussed what happened afterwards he did not seem to realize the danger he would have been in had it been a real fight, and I had to explain to him that I had been in a very strong position from which to pile-drive him on his neck.

Ultimately resistance training is just a tool that you use to explore various aspects of a real conflict that you cannot otherwise explore (except in a real fight, of course, and that's not where you want to learn these things if it is possible to learn them beforehand). It has limitations like other forms of training, and if you understand and respect these limitations it can be one of the most fruitful forms of training you can do, and that is why so many martial arts have this training.

Aikido typically does not, and I have not yet seen, nor do I believe there are, any valid arguments for why this is the case other than tradition and politics. Most of the arguments boil down to some variation of how resistance training can be misused or is limited. These problems exist for all types of training, including solo and paired kata training, but usually people who practice these exclusively don't care to examine the problems and limitations of those training methodologies, many of which can be resolved with the incorporation of resistance training.

Although the quality of your training and instruction is ultimately more important than the format, the mistake many people in aikido make is to assume that their training and instruction must be high quality because their teacher is high-ranked or because he is always able to throw his students. In reality, without testing what you do in some kind of a freestyle resistance setting, it is very difficult to know for sure how you good you are. Morihei Ueshiba knew this, and freely accepted open-format challenges from his students and other interested parties. How many aikido teachers today are willing to do that? How many will demonstrate that they can throw someone who is not giving them a typically over-committed aikido attack but who is actively trying to resist and counter?

In other words, how many aikido teachers can demonstrate that they can do what they claim to be teaching to someone who is trying to do the same thing to them? That is the minimum standard of performance that I now expect from any potential teacher in any art, and most teachers at even relatively low experience levels in arts like judo, BJJ, or kendo, to name a few of many, have no trouble meeting it. Yet only a few people at any level in aikido are willing or able to do this, and that is something I find very troubling for the future development of the art.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 08-08-2007 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 08-08-2007, 09:08 AM   #92
Aikibu
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post

Although the quality of your training and instruction is ultimately more important than the format, the mistake many people in aikido make is to assume that their training and instruction must be high quality because their teacher is high-ranked or because he is always able to throw his students. In reality, without testing what you do in some kind of a freestyle resistance setting, it is very difficult to know for sure how you good you are. Morihei Ueshiba knew this, and freely accepted open-format challenges from his students and other interested parties. How many aikido teachers today are willing to do that? How many will demonstrate that they can throw someone who is not giving them a typically over-committed aikido attack but who is actively trying to resist and counter?

In other words, how many aikido teachers can demonstrate that they can do what they claim to be teaching to someone who is trying to do the same thing to them? That is the minimum standard of performance that I now expect from any potential teacher in any art, and most teachers at even relatively low experience levels in arts like judo, BJJ, or kendo, to name a few of many, have no trouble meeting it. Yet only a few people at any level in aikido are willing or able to do this, and that is something I find very troubling for the future development of the art.
My thoughts exactly on the subject. One Caveat. Not everyone practices Aikido as a Martial Art. While this used to rankle me... I am fine with it now. To each his/her own. When I went looking for a style and Sensei in Aikido I had only one criteria...Can this teacher kick my a** "using" Aikido if it came down to a fight?? I actually called Susan Perry at ATM and explained my frustration at finding a competant Aikido Teacher on the Westside. She called back and left Micheal Fowler Sensei's info on my answering machine. The first time I met Micheal on the mat I went after him and he continually handled everything I threw at him with ease and that big old grin of his. I asked what style of Aikido is this? That night I was introduced to Shoji Nishio's "style" of Aikido and despite my initial doubts over a short period of time I was hooked and have practiced it ever since.

If Aikido is a Martial Art it must work as one first. If your Aikido is nothing more than moving meditation then just be honest about your practice. I see no conflict between the two by the way and the ideal would be to have both elements in your practice and I feel I have been blessed with such a style. I wish you all the best in finding a practice that suits you and your goals as a Martial Artist. No matter what you put the emphasis on... "Martial" or "Artist" With focus and hard pratice they do not have to be mutually exclusive in Aikido.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 08-08-2007 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 08-08-2007, 09:54 AM   #93
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Another big one I hear is finger breaks. We have seen finger, hand, and even ankle breaks in MMA competition. It almost never ends the fight. The only reason it is illegal is because of the recovery time required to get back to training after you break a few fingers.
Forget even finger breaks...there are many MMA fighters who go to compete with broken hands. Jeremy Jackson broke his left hand on his opponent's face during a match, and then knocked him out. He then broke his right hand in the next match, and knocked his opponent out once again.

Theory never really seems to take adrenaline and overall aggression into account. When I broke my collar bone in a skiing accident, I simply picked up both of my skis and walked down. Didn't know it was broken till the doctors told me. Yet a lot of traditional guys make collar bone breaks seem like deadly pancakes.

"Simply put your fingers in there, pull, and the fight is over"

Yes. Because killing people is easy...too easy.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 08-08-2007 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:00 AM   #94
Basia Halliop
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

I think it's fairly common in a lot of athletic things to take a while to realize that something's broken or sprained or whatever, and even if it's known many people are eager to continue right on, even in relatively low level (eg high school) sports and non-violent activities (eg track and field, professional dancing) if there isn't some coach/etc stepping in or at least their own better judgement and maturity against it.

It happens pretty often -- adrenaline and drive can have that effect even if you aren't 'the meanest craziest fighter fighting for your life' etc, although I imagine that would increase the effect even further.
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:08 AM   #95
G DiPierro
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
If Aikido is a Martial Art it must work as one first. If your Aikido is nothing more than moving meditation then just be honest about your practice. I see no conflict between the two by the way and the ideal would be to have both elements in your practice and I feel I have been blessed with such a style.
I”Ēve been doing yoga daily for over two years and as a moving meditation there is no comparison with anything I”Ēve seen in martial arts anywhere, and certainly not in aikido. My experience is that the moving meditation line is too often used by people who want to pretend to be martial artists without actually having to face the lack of martial prowess in their art. Granted, if someone is doing taiji for health, and they only practice the solo forms, with no push-hands, fajin, qinna, shuai-jiao, etc., then I will accept it as a moving meditation rather than a martial art per se. Similarly, if someone wants to do an art like capoeira with the emphasis primarily on artistic expression and playing a nice game rather than hitting or tripping, then I”Ēm willing to consider it as a dance form more so than a martial art. (Although the best people in both of these arts also do them as martial arts, and happen to be some of the most skilled martial artists I've met in any style.) But if two people are doing a practice where one person grabs or strikes the other and then the second person throws the first person on the floor, and if this is the way they practice the overwhelming majority of the time, then I don”Ēt buy that this practice is a "moving meditation." If it looks like a martial art, talks like a martial art, and moves like a martial art, then I call it a martial art.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 08-08-2007 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:26 AM   #96
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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I asked a bunch of guys I trained with if they thought they could be any aikidoka they might encounter. These guys give no respect to anything not sport martial arts, yet they still all replied that there had to be a few that could do it for real and beat them. Just on statistics alone.
That is actually a really good thing to hear. And it sounds like a perfectly reasonable response from them.

Quote:
The real dangerous techniques don't need to be proven, logic tells us an eye gouge puts out an eye,
Hmm, not so sure about this one. In my limited experience, **most** times someone does something like this, it seems to amount to not very much at all. The few times someone actually tried it in a fight, it had no affect except to piss me off. The one time in particular I just dragged the guy along the bumpy asphalt peeling off his skin until he stopped trying to mess with my eyes. Then pounded him a few times for good measure.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:35 AM   #97
CNYMike
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
I'm going to hazard that you haven't grappled with a BJJer before, amirite?
Not a BJJer per se, but used to grapple for position once or twice in Guro Kevin Seaman's Kali class, and he's heavily into Grappling. So I know all the positions BJJers use, and yes, I will be the first to admit a BJJer would probably take me down, no problem.

That doesn't mean there isn't someone out there who can claim he can't be taken down .... and can back it up. Such individuals may be very few and far between, but I don't think anyone can say they don't exist at all.
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:46 AM   #98
CNYMike
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
..... Aikido typically does not, and I have not yet seen, nor do I believe there are, any valid arguments for why this is the case other than tradition ......
The "tradition" part goes back to what I was saying before about passing down the art. I think a lot of people who write off "tradition" never have it explained to them as to why it's there. Rejecting tradition just because it's traditional can be just as bad as following it without knowing what's going on.

Martial arts are the last holdout of oral tradtions in our high tech culture, and that's why I think you have to be careful about changes. Even when, as you note, O Sensei is dead and Ueshiba Aikido 1.0 is gone, there should be some core ideas and principles that should be true Aikido, and if those are rejected, it's not Aikido anymore.
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:48 AM   #99
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Such individuals may be very few and far between, but I don't think anyone can say they don't exist at all.
I think Don specifically said that there might be someone out there who can do it.

The problem is...is that someone YOU??? Or ME??? Or someone that I directly train with, and can learn from, and then it becomes ME...

If not, the few and far between doesn't help me one whit. Not a bit. Not even a little.

If my teacher can kick butt that's just fine...but if he can't teach ME to do it...then I should probably not go around touting it.

Best,
Ron (sorry, not trying to be harsh...but...)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:53 AM   #100
CNYMike
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
.... Everyone knows by now that breaking the knee with a kick is actually a very hard thing to do. It requires expert timing, and proper position on the attacker, otherwise the kick simply moves their leg and hurts. Yet I can't count the number of times this move is listed as a way a non-sport martial artist with no sparing would be a MMA fighter .....
Kicks to the knee are illegal in Thai Boxing AFAIK. Also, I remeber a time one of my training partners accidentally sheered my leg while I was throwing him. My knee was pushed 90 degrees to the way it like to bend; it hurt like hell! I shudder to think about what could happen if someone really whacked it. And the guys I sparred with vbakc in the day liked to kick to the knee. Not something to poo poo.

Quote:
.... most deadly techniques fall into four categories.

1) Techniques that we think might work, but have no constant proof and in my opinion probably are not a real threat. (My reverse punch to the chest will stop your heart.)
Stop the heart? Maybe not. Knock the wind out of you? There was a fight repalied on spike where one fighter, an Asian guy with blonde hair, kncoked the wind out of his opponent with a body shot to the solar plexus; it just happened to look like a reverse puch, either because he once did karate or coincidence. But that kind 0of thrust to that target looks like it does something after all.

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