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Old 08-06-2007, 12:35 PM   #1
Picc84
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Freaky! Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

Hello all, This is a Intro/question post.

My friends, well... Most, are all taking Martial Arts, I have 3 that are 1st Degree Blacks In Karate, 1 thats a 2d in Karate, A blue belt, a brown belt in karate, and 2 that take quite a range of martial arts, and one that takes BJJ.

I've been into this for awhile, and have played with Karate abit, but never got into it. At the sight of Aikido, I really enjoyed the fact that its more of a defensive art. My friends are not the ones to attack randomly when we are not playing around, or even when playing around, but I'd like to be able to do something about this. Being not taking any classes in any style currently, I have no tech. So I just stick my hands out and block as good as I can.

What I'm wondering, is if Ki Society Aikido, CAN Be used as a Self Defence. One site tells me "Placing emphasis on Ai-KI-DO with Ki at the center of techniques. It's a very soft and relaxed style."

I'm not even sure if My school is this type, but because of the fact that I have not called in yet, and only saw their website, I'm going to say no, because of the video--- LINK TO VIDEO Shows actual defense.

If I'm totally off track, and this is defiantly NOT Ki, please tell. I'm new to the art, but have been interested forever, and am now furthering my interest by going ahead and joining a school.
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Old 08-06-2007, 01:45 PM   #2
DaveO
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

Quote:
Michael Piccoletti wrote: View Post
What I'm wondering, is if Ki Society Aikido, CAN Be used as a Self Defence. One site tells me "Placing emphasis on Ai-KI-DO with Ki at the center of techniques. It's a very soft and relaxed style."
There are two short answers; both coming from different directions.

"(A) No, Ki-Aikido is not useful for defence. (B)Yes, Ki-Aikido is extremely useful for defence."

This answer is not a discrepancy; which answer applies for you depends solely on your attitude/approach/outlook. You see, people often take martial arts for their 'defence/fighting' aspect, and frequently overlook the deeper aspects of what they're doing.
Let me elaborate: Saying this style or that style is better in a fight/defensive situation is a bit like saying Swiss is better than Cheddar on your sandwich - it all comes down to personal preference/learning style. People point to techniques seen in - for example, Shotokan Karate, or Wing Chung Gung Fu, and say "Hey, these are really cool, nifty, dangerous moves - this is a good fighting style."
Many of Aikido's (and particularly Ki-Aikido's) detractors think along these lines - the techniques determine the effectiveness.

The thing is, the techniques themselves are secondary to the art - they're teaching tools; not the art itself. If your concern is defence; what saves you on the street - the real, live, hairy street; not the simplistic cardboard cutout most think about - is not a nifty kokyu-nage or kote-oroshi, it's what the techniques teach. Balance, stability, awareness, co-ordination, relaxation under extreme stress etc. are what I'm talking about here.

The simple fact is, it isn't the art that makes a difference in a defensive situation, it's the person who's defending him/herself. That person needs to keep his head - both literally and figuratively in this case - and respond/react in an intelligent, effective and disciplined manner. Almost any style - providing it is taught with care and concientiousness - will allow you to learn to control your mind and body to a sufficient extent to defend yourself; assuming that option is presented to you. (Often, people curious about the Martial Arts ask me "What's the best fighting style?" I tell them "Yoga" and watch their faces. Cracks me up every time. Heh heh heh )

So that's the 'yes' part. In a nutshell, Ki-Aikido is a superb style for learning mind/body co-ordination and effective movement. Now for the "no" part.

All the above being said, I'm gonna throw in a major caveat concerning the defensive side of aikido - unless you've goat a really good instructor who directly addresses defence; chances are any attempt to 'use' aikido in a defensive situation is gonna get you splattered faster than a bug on a windshield; simply because the reality of defence is radically different from what is commonly taught in the dojo.

That is not a condemnation; rather an aspect of the confusion people tend to have between a 'self-defence' art and a 'defensive' art. Aikido is a defensive art - that is, it had few structures for attack, and its orietation is directed towards defensive principles. It is not a 'self-defence' art - it's far deeper and more subtle than that - re-read the 'yes' argument. The thing is, as deep as it is, it doesn't directly address the specific needs and goals required in a genuine defensive encounter; nor does it discuss the specific anatomy of modern-day real-world violence.

For example; the vast majority of the encounters I've been forced to endure either in the line of duty or otherwise have taken place in cramped confines, with obstacles and debris underfoot; frequently surrounded by bystanders who will take sides. Weapons are common as well, and one-on-one situations are very rare; three attackers being the most frequent. The most common factor however was that almost without exception, these encounters were all ambushes - violence launched in attempted surprise; from the oblique angle or from the blindside.

Note - I'm not talking barfights or schoolyard rumbles here; though those can and do turn deadly. I'm talking real violence; where someone wanted something - payback, gratification, money, or my client's ass - and was willing to go to extremes to get it. Figts are easy enough to avoid - don't fight. Assaults are sommat else entirely. This sort of violence Aikido does not train you for; since it doesn't exist within the art's focus. (Nor, for that matter, does it exist in the vast majority of other traditional MAs - that's not what the MA's about.) This is where specific instructors come in. There are many, many skilled instructors - many of whom are on Aikiweb and you will certainly hear from - that do understand the defensive complexity of real-world violence and do their utmost to prepare their students for that aspect. The best also train them hard to ensure students understand how to not have to use their physical aikido - IOW, to be able to avoid a defensive situation before it occurs.

One other thing - keep in mind that the 'defensive' aspect, while important, is a very small part of a much larger picture called Aikido. The defence is - or should be - there; but the value of Aikido manifests itself greater in terms of personal confidence, health, awareness of self and surround, discipline, and grace - both uses of the word. There is also the cameraderie and sheer joy of learning in a good dojo to consider. Aikido is far, far greater than simple self defence.

This is long and I'm tired - I hope I've been able to help in a small way to answer your question.

Cheers!

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 08-06-2007, 03:01 PM   #3
Picc84
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

Wow, So much... Um... So confused, I'm going to definatly have to re-read that over a bunch of times...

Thank You Though!
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:34 PM   #4
DaveO
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

No sweat. I've a dear friend who says in relation to SD "If you're not confused, you don't understand the problem" and he's so very right - the complexities and sheer enormity of what one can learn from the martial arts mean even the best can only hope to learn a tiny fraction. I wish you luck, Michael; and I do strongly suggest you attend an aikido dojo, you'll love it. Just make sure you know what you want from the MA before you join, and do your best to go in with the right headspace. That way, you'll have loads of fun and learn much.
Cheers!

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 08-07-2007, 12:02 AM   #5
Picc84
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

Wow ok, After re-reading about 20 times, I got it figured out thanks!

I turned to another dojo, and have joined! Yay! I cannot wait to suit up!
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Old 08-07-2007, 08:53 AM   #6
SeiserL
 
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

IMHO, while I am very supportive of Aikido, I am also very critical. It is not the style of Aikido, but the skill of the person doing Aikido (or any art) that matters.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-07-2007, 10:07 AM   #7
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, while I am very supportive of Aikido, I am also very critical. It is not the style of Aikido, but the skill of the person doing Aikido (or any art) that matters.
I like this as jumping point. So thank you, Lynn for the good thought to follow up on.

It is the skill level , first and foremost, of the person in the flesh.
But it is alo the onus of the person who is practicing to learn what 'usefull' really means and to discern what it is you are really defending.
Useful is not limited to working in a ring or prevailing on the street. If those paradigms never present themselves in our lives, in that instance, did we train for naught. Was it all simply a fight drama that solidified opposites and never found the thread? Could be.

Is it not practical to look at the overall effects of our personal well being? Is it not useful to eliminate scarcity thinking from our selves because we know that the universe is ever present and always providing for our lives (Take mu-su)? Is it not useful to reframe the way that we relate to the world based on powerful, harmonious, non-invasive activity?
And is it not useful to have somewhere to gather in the deepest form of active sincerity and commit our spirit with our flesh to our partner, as if they were our momentary spouse, and work together in a most intricate dance of living and dying?

To me, this is useful. You get there through diligent and developed labor in practice. You get there through following the form of the techniques until the surface veil dissolves and the true lessons speak. You get there by being there, even imperfectly.
That is the essence of inner sparring, IMO. And the winner is all of us.

Me, Myself, and Ai.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-07-2007 at 10:10 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 08-07-2007, 10:36 AM   #8
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

That was nice Jen.
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:52 PM   #9
Adam Alexander
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Useful is not limited to working in a ring or prevailing on the street.
No, but keeping that a serious consideration prevents you from following a guy who shoots imaginary ki balls and loses five grand the hard way.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:11 PM   #10
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?



That was a good one! Maybe you should post the link for reference...some might not get it...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:23 PM   #11
Adam Alexander
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post


That was a good one! Maybe you should post the link for reference...some might not get it...

B,
R
Thanks. I chuckled when I read it.

I don't know the link. Plus, I'd hate for it to get popular again and me spend the next month arguing that that's not Aikido...again.
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Old 08-08-2007, 01:52 AM   #12
Sonja2012
 
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

Quote:
Me, Myself, and Ai.
That made me laugh.... good one !
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:31 AM   #13
kironin
 
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

I guess I am confused. What has the original post to do with Ki Society ? The only link provided is a link to something that looks like an independent school that does not give any reference to lineage or source of the teacher's 5th dan.

It's like a style was picked out of the air from randoming surfing on the web.

?

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Old 08-08-2007, 03:49 AM   #14
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

Quote:
Michael Piccoletti wrote: View Post
What I'm wondering, is if Ki Society Aikido, CAN Be used as a Self Defence. One site tells me "Placing emphasis on Ai-KI-DO with Ki at the center of techniques. It's a very soft and relaxed style."

I'm not even sure if My school is this type, but because of the fact that I have not called in yet, and only saw their website, I'm going to say no, because of the video--- LINK TO VIDEO Shows actual defense.
Michael,
I just had a look on the video and all I can say is that it shows neither KI-Aikido nor actual defense.
It is just a normal demonstration. IMHO it is not bad, but not good enough to be shown to the public as example of masterly aikido.
I actully preferred the other video of that school: "The Sammallest Samurai" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZQld6dyRWg

It seems as if there is a kind of link to AikidoEast, as they visit the New York Aikikai every year, but they do not seem to be a member.

Nevertheless, have much fun.

Regards Dirk
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:06 AM   #15
kironin
 
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

Quote:
Dave Organ wrote: View Post
All the above being said, I'm gonna throw in a major caveat concerning the defensive side of aikido - unless you've goat a really good instructor who directly addresses defence; chances are any attempt to 'use' aikido in a defensive situation is gonna get you splattered faster than a bug on a windshield; simply because the reality of defence is radically different from what is commonly taught in the dojo.
replace "aikido" with "martial art", this is not a problem unique to aikido.

What is Great Wave Aikido? I was curious but all I could find in reference to it was some dissappointing youtube videos where you and Jill were displaying a deep ignorance of correct jo technique and also speaking with authority but also quite incorrectly about what is and isn't Ki Society style jo technique.
Pardon me but I found it deeply frustrating and dissappointing to watch.

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Old 08-08-2007, 08:53 AM   #16
Joe Jutsu
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

These Ki Society threads always catch my eye. In response to the original poster, yes, aikido, even the notoriously "soft" ki aikido can be effective, but it's largely up to the personal ability of the practitioner under the guidance of a legitimately knowledgeable sensei. Ki Society teaches mind and body coordination, and while the art is pretty much accessible to everyone, if you are smart and physically coordinated, with a little bit of dedication these aikido skills will come quicker than for those less gifted in these areas. Aikido obviously takes a lot of bashing these days, but I do not doubt it's effectiveness. Aikido is not a game, and it's techniques, though primarily teaching tools as they may be (as indicated in Dave's post) should not be used recklessly. I've had a sort of personally troubling experience recently involving a very drunk and belligerent acquaintance. I'm thankful that he took his aggression out on me, the "martial artist" as opposed to some others who were present. Let's just say that this encounter has made me rethink the frequently asked question, "is aikido effective..." I don't look at it like I once did, "will aikido fail," as much as "will I fail aikido," and I feel in this circumstance I failed aikido by not protecting my aggressor as much as I would have liked to. But you live and you learn, hopefully both of us learned something from that night...

I too looked up the Great Wave Aikido Club, and I think I found the videos that Craig Hocker was talking about. I found them a bit puzzling too, though I'm at work so I'm working on a slooooow computer with no speakers. But those jo nage's were interesting, I'm wondering where you learned those throws seeing as stylistically I've not seen them taught in this way by your chief instructor. I've met Jill and a few people from your club, they were really nice people, but the real issue that I have with the website that I found was the fact that there is a link to Tissier shihan at the bottom of the page. Hey, Tissier is awesome, no questioning that! But don't you think you might ruffle a few feathers by linking to this video without any real indication that what Tissier shihan is doing in the video is not what you guys profess to teach? aka NOT Ki Society? I'm not on a witch hunt, but I do think it is in poor taste. But don't worry, I won't tell sensei when I see him in a couple of weeks. Beautiful Rocky's, here I come! Perhaps we can start a new thread on the jo within Ki Society when I get home.

Cheers!
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Old 08-08-2007, 09:35 AM   #17
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

Quote:
Adam Alexander wrote: View Post
No, but keeping that a serious consideration prevents you from following a guy who shoots imaginary ki balls and loses five grand the hard way.
How Dragon Ball Z meets Casino.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:18 PM   #18
statisticool
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Re: Ki Society Style Actually Usefull?

Quote:
Michael Piccoletti wrote: View Post
What I'm wondering, is if Ki Society Aikido, CAN Be used as a Self Defence.
Yes. Using the body for self defense is not an extraordinary claim.

Quote:
This video, like almost all videos, shows self defense techniques, not actual self defense situations (ie. in real life). Can someone apply these techniques or modify them slightly (which is more probable) for real life? Probably.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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