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Old 07-31-2007, 02:42 PM   #26
dps
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

I found this on Aikido Journal.

"And of most concern to me is, “What would Aikido have been if Japan had won the war?” Would Aikido still be “The Way of Peace,” as John Stevens translates it, or would it be more like the martial recreation of the Japanese ruling class?"

http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/...24a60d907ee853

David
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:46 PM   #27
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
...As another example, I'll never forgive Tohei Koichi for his breezy claim that there was no Bataan Death March, that Americans were fed ordinary Japanese army rations and were so spoiled that they couldn't survive on the ordinary, healthy diet of Japanese soldiers (gee, he never mentioned all the thousands of Filipino's who also were killed, who lived as poor or poorer than Japanese - They weren't even worth mentioning, much less the fact that a large portion of the Americans and Filipinos didn't even starve to death - they were bayoneted when, weakened by fatigue and starvation, they fell behind)....
So he's in denial. The Japanese nation is still in denial about WWII. I'm not saying that makes it right, but that's the way people are.

During the war K. Tohei was basically in charge of a Chinese town. If he is such a monster, why did they invite him back several times after the war to help them celebrate their founder's day? Perhaps this speaks more closely about his character.

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Old 07-31-2007, 07:47 PM   #28
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

Ted -
I didn't say he is a monster. As far as I know, he's an ordinary guy with extraordiary physical talents, quite arrogant who is also a a bit of a guru, used to a fawning audience. When some people get in a position of power due to the alleged magic of their hands, and innumerable people dote on their every word, some such start to feel like they can say anything they want. And in their own little circle, they get away with it, and if anyone objects, their acolytes get upset on their behalf. Tohei Koichi is the exemplar of this.

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Old 08-01-2007, 12:53 AM   #29
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Ted -
I didn't say he is a monster. As far as I know, he's an ordinary guy with extraordiary physical talents, quite arrogant who is also a a bit of a guru, used to a fawning audience. When some people get in a position of power due to the alleged magic of their hands, and innumerable people dote on their every word, some such start to feel like they can say anything they want. And in their own little circle, they get away with it, and if anyone objects, their acolytes get upset on their behalf. Tohei Koichi is the exemplar of this.
How true Ellis...An interesting paradox of Aikido in some circles...

I try to avoid those people as much as possible.

No Hollywood Aikido for me. It's bad enough I have to work in this town.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 08-01-2007 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 08-01-2007, 04:45 AM   #30
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

I liked Ellis' rant - right on the mark.

My 2c ...

In 1989 I was in Hiroshima as part of a univeristy exchange. There were several of us, all paired up with Japanese etc. and living in homestays - it was a great experience, meeting H-bomb survivors and listening to stories. Of course, we all knew it was kind of biased, but, well, they do have the right to tell their side. However, one day we had a lecture at the university by some special lecturer so off we all went. Turns out it was about the H-bombings, again, and everytime the presenter mentioned America (we were from the UK) he glared at us with evil eye and spoke in derisory tone -- and all the Japanese students seemed to do likewise in concert - death by 1000 eyes. Naturally, perhaps, we were kind of sitting as low in our chairs as possible in vain attempt not to be too noticable. Anyway, at the end of the ordeal the presenter asked if anyone had any questions about the War. My good friend at the time, Robert, raised his hand and asked, extremely politely, "Who started it?" One of those moments, it was. The presenter lost it, totally ...

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Old 08-01-2007, 02:43 PM   #31
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Ted -
I didn't say he is a monster.
Not overtly, but you are implying it by focusing on his denial of the Battan Death March and unlawful treatment of prisoners-of-war. Since K. Tohei was a Japanese soldier, one would expect him to reflect an attitude of denial that is seen throughout the society. However you need to look at everything that he did during the war. He kept the peace in the Chinese town that he was in charge of. He managed to keep his own soldiers content. At the end of the war, all the men in his unit went home. After the end of the war, the locals invited him back to celebrate the founding of the town, several times.
Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
...As far as I know, he's an ordinary guy with extraordiary physical talents...
This is a major area of disagreement, since I see him as an extraordinary guy with ordinary physical talents. He wasn't in the Olympics or won the Boston Marathon. His physical skills were quite ordinary. This means there is hope, hope for all to achieve or surpass what he had done.

From the chief instructors in the US that I've met, you can clearly see that K. Tohei was first and foremost, an instructor. The curriculum that he devised and the centralized organization that teaches this program is quite different from the styles that make up the decentralized organization of Aikikai.

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
... quite arrogant who is also a a bit of a guru, used to a fawning audience. When some people get in a position of power due to the alleged magic of their hands, and innumerable people dote on their every word, some such start to feel like they can say anything they want. And in their own little circle, they get away with it, and if anyone objects, their acolytes get upset on their behalf. Tohei Koichi is the exemplar of this.
I have never personally met him, so I can't begin to pass any judgment. I have heard of people in authority becoming arrogant and surrounding themselves with like-minded people. Teachers, Shihans, CEOs and even a few American Presidents have been described like that. If you are going to complain about their flaws you also need to look at their achievements. Unless all you want to do is rant and rave .

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Old 08-01-2007, 02:47 PM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I liked Ellis' rant - right on the mark.

My 2c ...My good friend at the time, Robert, raised his hand and asked, extremely politely, "Who started it?" One of those moments, it was. The presenter lost it, totally ...
Dude...do you have film on that!?!?! I would love to have seen it...


Best,
Ron

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Old 08-01-2007, 02:48 PM   #33
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
How true Ellis...An interesting paradox of Aikido in some circles...

I try to avoid those people as much as possible.

No Hollywood Aikido for me. It's bad enough I have to work in this town.

William Hazen
You're complaining about working in Malibu, CA?!?!

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Old 08-01-2007, 02:54 PM   #34
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

Hey Ted, don't sweat it...I'm just glad Ellis didn't go on one of his rants about Shioda's atavism...

Let's face it...all of our teachers have their faults, just like the rest of us. We celebrate their strengths, and hopefully emulate them to some degree. Things we don't like as much...well, they can be glossed over by the faithfull, but we shouldn't fault non-believers too much for mentioning them. Guilty of that myself (say, where is Szscpan these days?!?!?)

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-01-2007, 03:05 PM   #35
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote: View Post
You're complaining about working in Malibu, CA?!?!
Never!!!LOL I am complaining about working alongside turkeys with eagle sized egos.

Shore nuff don't need to do that on the mat.

William Hazen
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Old 08-01-2007, 04:54 PM   #36
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Dude...do you have film on that!?!?! I would love to have seen it...
Ron
No Vid, but Robert became a journalist ...

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Old 08-05-2007, 11:44 AM   #37
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

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William Hazen wrote: View Post

And I for one am tired of the 9/11 metaphors... I don't mind hearing about what happened to you that day. I lost family in the WTC.... But thank GOD! I practice hard Aikido and have no fear of making my opinion known. I just pray that we come out of this madness and fear some time soon before one of these idiots in charge does something even more asinine than they have already.

William Hazen

There is more than one tongue spoken in the world; even among those who share a common language. We use the tools we have and hopefuly we take good care of them. Metaphor is a tool for expressing ideas with spirit. It is infrequent that I latch on to any event, and certainly not one that is as fraught with B.S. and kharma as that day. But it is a literal moment from my life and it is what I have to communicate with about a moment of musubi with mankind and a particlar vibration I felt. And that is an element that I woud like to hear more of from myself and from others; feeling (perhaps the playground of ki). I mean we touch each other on the mat. Metaphor is how I touch on an idea and how I can touch people on-line with my words.

I'm certainly not offended by your comment.It is reasonable and on a level I couldn't feel ya more. What I want is to open more doors for conversation and not less.

Good to hear from ya.
Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-05-2007 at 11:57 AM.

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Old 08-05-2007, 03:44 PM   #38
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
There is more than one tongue spoken in the world; even among those who share a common language. We use the tools we have and hopefuly we take good care of them. Metaphor is a tool for expressing ideas with spirit. It is infrequent that I latch on to any event, and certainly not one that is as fraught with B.S. and kharma as that day. But it is a literal moment from my life and it is what I have to communicate with about a moment of musubi with mankind and a particlar vibration I felt. And that is an element that I woud like to hear more of from myself and from others; feeling (perhaps the playground of ki). I mean we touch each other on the mat. Metaphor is how I touch on an idea and how I can touch people on-line with my words.

I'm certainly not offended by your comment.It is reasonable and on a level I couldn't feel ya more. What I want is to open more doors for conversation and not less.

Good to hear from ya.
Jen
I am reminded of a story Roshi told me along long time ago. A man was running through the jungle with a Man Eating Tiger in hot pursuit. Suddenly out of nowhere a cliff appeared and he stumbled over it. Lucky for him he mananged to grab on to something and break his fall. As he hung there for a moment he looked up and saw the Hungry Tiger! Looking down he saw another Hungry Tiger waiting for him to fall. The Brush was slowly pulling away from the cliff face. Upon inspecting the bush he noticed a Strawberry and just before the bush gave way plunging him to certain death... He picked and ate it. "Delicious!" He yelled as he fell....

I just found out today my Mom's Cancer has metasized to her brain.

If sounded combative I apologize.

Life is short. Namaste'

William Hazen
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Old 08-05-2007, 05:27 PM   #39
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

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I just found out today my Mom's Cancer has metasized to her brain.
Tough news, indeed. Please accept my humble prayers and best wishes.
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Old 08-05-2007, 06:48 PM   #40
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

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Tough news, indeed. Please accept my humble prayers and best wishes.
The same here. Our thoughts are with her.

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Old 08-05-2007, 10:40 PM   #41
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

I pray that God will instill peace on your heart, William Hazen.
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Old 08-05-2007, 10:46 PM   #42
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

Oh by the way, if you want additional information on the occupational era of Japan. I recommend that you read Embracing Defeat: Wake of Japan During WWll by John W. Dower. It's very detail. About 600 plus pages.
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Old 08-05-2007, 11:51 PM   #43
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

Thanks.

William Hazen
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Old 08-06-2007, 09:55 AM   #44
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I am reminded of a story Roshi told me along long time ago. A man was running through the jungle with a Man Eating Tiger in hot pursuit. Suddenly out of nowhere a cliff appeared and he stumbled over it. Lucky for him he mananged to grab on to something and break his fall. As he hung there for a moment he looked up and saw the Hungry Tiger! Looking down he saw another Hungry Tiger waiting for him to fall. The Brush was slowly pulling away from the cliff face. Upon inspecting the bush he noticed a Strawberry and just before the bush gave way plunging him to certain death... He picked and ate it. "Delicious!" He yelled as he fell....

I just found out today my Mom's Cancer has metasized to her brain.

If sounded combative I apologize.

Life is short. Namaste'

William Hazen
I'm sorry, William.

Your words were well placed, even on such a hard day, and my heart goes out to you.

If there is any way to make your time now or her time wih you anything like a 'strawberry', please let me know. I mean that. I'm not far away in Santa Cruz and I'd come to help if It were needed.

That's what friends are for.

Jen

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Old 08-06-2007, 09:56 AM   #45
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

My best to you and her William.

Ron

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Old 08-06-2007, 10:54 AM   #46
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, William.

Your words were well placed, even on such a hard day, and my heart goes out to you.

If there is any way to make your time now or her time wih you anything like a 'strawberry', please let me know. I mean that. I'm not far away in Santa Cruz and I'd come to help if It were needed.

That's what friends are for.

Jen
Thanks Jen and Ron.

Your offer is heartfelt Jen and I really appreciate it.

I don't want to hijack the thread so my apologies. I was just trying top explain the edge in my posts and when I look back on some of them I was not centered when I wrote them.

Thanka again you two and all the rest for your thoughts and prayers.

William Hazen
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:00 AM   #47
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

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I don't want to hijack the thread so my apologies. I was just trying top explain the edge in my posts and when I look back on some of them I was not centered when I wrote them.
A sword without an edge cannot cut. You were not inappropriate.

My regards and thoughts for you, your mother, and your family. I have friends and family members who are fighting the same fight; whatever else, you are both not alone.

Regards,

Tarik

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Old 08-06-2007, 11:12 AM   #48
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

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I don't want to hijack the thread so my apologies.
No need to apologize, your mom is more important?

David
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:43 PM   #49
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Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, O'Sensei

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I am reminded of a story Roshi told me along long time ago. A man was running through the jungle with a Man Eating Tiger in hot pursuit. Suddenly out of nowhere a cliff appeared and he stumbled over it. Lucky for him he mananged to grab on to something and break his fall. As he hung there for a moment he looked up and saw the Hungry Tiger! Looking down he saw another Hungry Tiger waiting for him to fall. The Brush was slowly pulling away from the cliff face. Upon inspecting the bush he noticed a Strawberry and just before the bush gave way plunging him to certain death... He picked and ate it. "Delicious!" He yelled as he fell....

I just found out today my Mom's Cancer has metasized to her brain.

If sounded combative I apologize.

Life is short. Namaste'

William Hazen
I just got back and was catching up on threads. Ugh. Best of hopes, wishes, and prayers, William, for all involved. My family has had two funerals this year, one to cancer. It's tough. And not much anyone can say to help. I hope you have a strong family for support, because that really makes a difference.

Mark
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