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Old 07-31-2007, 06:49 AM   #1
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Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

Very interesting. You can read it here:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3600

I have some questions.

First, I tried finding some definition for "neo-Shinto" but failed miserably. We all know that O Moto Kyo was neo-Shinto. But what defines neo-Shinto versus Shinto?

Hmm ... so, if one were to say that Daito ryu is the underpinnings of Ueshiba Morihei's aikido while the spiritual (O Moto Kyo, etc) is the modifier *and* Ueshiba has said that one didn't have to follow his spiritual route, can one achieve Ueshiba Morihei's aikido through DR underpinnings and Christianity? DR and any religion?

Could we say that there are two lines of aikido now? Those following Ueshiba Kisshomaru's vision of aikido and those following Ueshiba Morihei's vision of aikido? This doesn't mean, btw, that one need to be in the "Aikikai" to follow Kisshomaru's vision. Any school that follows a mainly, technique driven approach over solo training would also follow Kisshomaru's vision of aikido. If Ueshiba did countless hours of solo training, throughout his life, then somewhere along the way, those solo training exercises were dropped from the curriculum. How much emphasis is placed upon the solo training that Ueshiba did (which was learned from Takeda and Daito ryu) in any Aikido school?

Was the innovations that Ueshiba created unique? In other words, were the changes he made to DR's core training methods something only he did? According to Sagawa, no. Sagawa has been quoted as saying he modified his training regimen. He is quoted as saying that he has been innovating for at least 20 years. IF there is as many visions of DR as there are heads of schools, then can we not still consider Ueshiba Morihei's version of aikido, Ueshiba-ha Daito Ryu? Even with the spiritual modifications, Ueshiba still innovated as Kodo and Sagawa did. I guess this all breaks down into just how much influence and/or change the spiritual made towards DR methodology and/or essence. Was it really that much?

Are the core training methods of DR still needed to "do" aikido? Or can the modified training methods of Ueshiba Morihei be used?

"Can we start with a two-person exercise that "refines" power, without developing such power first?" Even if one has developed the power first, where are all the solo exercises Ueshiba Morihei did being taught? Where are the breathing exercises taught? Where are the empty hand and weapons solo exercises being taught?

As always, Amdur sensei, your writings are a joy to read but they always leave me with more questions than I started.

Thank you,
Mark
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Old 07-31-2007, 08:53 AM   #2
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hmm ... so, if one were to say that Daito ryu is the underpinnings of Ueshiba Morihei's aikido while the spiritual (O Moto Kyo, etc) is the modifier *and* Ueshiba has said that one didn't have to follow his spiritual route, can one achieve Ueshiba Morihei's aikido through DR underpinnings and Christianity? DR and any religion?
Ellis' article raised some good questions. I think he pointed out that the discussions of ki and kokyu in Aikido have been fairly widespread recently (I even heard some more discussions about the latest kokyu classes with Ushiro Sensei at Summer Camp). However, as I see it the ki and kokyu being in Asian arts is a given. It's in all the available literature of any given Asian martial art. In fact, just the discussions about "Ki" or "Qi" should have been enough to give it away, except most western people didn't realize that the ki/qi stuff was anything other than some quasi-religious nonsense which they promptly ignored.

What's next in line of the generalities to be understood is that a "Way" or "Tao" or "Do" also innately contains the "self-cultivation" of ki/qi. I.e., there is no "spiritual" or "health" side to Aikido that does not include the traditional self-cultivation of ki/qi skills, whether you're doing Aikido, Buddhism, Shintoism (which borrowed heavily from Buddhism), Confucianism, Taiji, karate, whatever. So when someone chooses between a fierce martial effectiveness or a more circular, relaxed "Do", they can alter the amount of necessary training they have to do, but the training must still be there and the ki/kokyu skills are still a keystone part of the practice. If you understand that part about the ki/qi basics always being there, then this next question resolves itself:
Quote:
Could we say that there are two lines of aikido now? Those following Ueshiba Kisshomaru's vision of aikido and those following Ueshiba Morihei's vision of aikido?
The next question:
Quote:
Was the innovations that Ueshiba created unique? In other words, were the changes he made to DR's core training methods something only he did? According to Sagawa, no. Sagawa has been quoted as saying he modified his training regimen. He is quoted as saying that he has been innovating for at least 20 years. IF there is as many visions of DR as there are heads of schools, then can we not still consider Ueshiba Morihei's version of aikido, Ueshiba-ha Daito Ryu? Even with the spiritual modifications, Ueshiba still innovated as Kodo and Sagawa did. I guess this all breaks down into just how much influence and/or change the spiritual made towards DR methodology and/or essence. Was it really that much?
Personally, I don't see any core differences between Aikido and a few other of the "higher-level" martial arts throughout Asia. The idea of blending your ki/jin/kokyu with an incoming attack and leading them to nothingness is a well-known ideal. One thing I'd guess, based on what I've seen and read, etc., is that Ueshiba used a somewhat different training mode, a softer approach, for Aikido than DR did (even though the core principles are the same). There's a more sophisticated range of possibilities with a softer approach, but it can also turn out to be a kidding of yourself if you're not careful.
Quote:
"Can we start with a two-person exercise that "refines" power, without developing such power first?"
It's possible to be led into correct power, but it's tricky. The best way, IMO, is to learn the power first and then the exercises. But each to his own, I allus sez.

Best.

Mike
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Old 07-31-2007, 09:35 AM   #3
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

Mark -
1. Neo = "new" In the 19th century, Neo-Shinto groups like Tenrikyo or Omoto-kyo emerged, independent religious organizations/cults, usually headed by a charasmatic founder who had an individual revelation. Their doctrines were at variance with orthodoxy (State, Imperial and folk Shinto) and might have included material from other traditions or religions.
2. I think Ueshiba was clear that one didn't have to be an Omotokyo follower to do his aikido - he had his own distance from Omotokyo, unlike Inoue Noriaki, for example. However, I do think that Ueshiba believed that to do HIS aikido, one had to live ANALOGOUS to his "spiritual" way. (Note in Tohei K.'s interview, Ueshiba's distress at observing Tohei, still hung-over after a debauch, doing "ki tricks.") As I wrote, however, in "Aikido is Three Peaches," I think it is clear that he regarded most people's work in aikido as merely contributing energy to the greater spiritual work of the avatars. (But one could BE an avatar. Read the revised version of the essay when the book comes out
3. I think it's simplistic to talk about two ways of aikido - there are, perhaps, a lot. My interest, however, is Ueshiba Morihei's aikido as "opposed to" any and all the other modern versions that don't, apparently, give access to the power he had. For example, Tomiki "had" it - whether, btw, he did solo training like Ueshiba did or not. Shioda apparently "had" it, etc. Whether to the same degree or greater or lesser - - ????? I don't KNOW that solo practice, a la Ueshiba is/was the only avenue to such power as he had. Evidently, even those few of his students who "had" it didn't pass it on to many or any. Similarly, were I exploring Daito-ryu, I would only be interested in the Daito-ryu that gave the very few individuals access to intrinsic power, not the vast majority who are just doing human origami joint-locks by the numbers.
4. Personally, I think this idea of Ueshiba-ha Daito-ryu is kind of silly, much like claiming Christianity is just Judaism. (Using that as a metaphor, Takumakai is almost equivalent to the "Judaizing" churches that maintained a clear connection through ethnicity and ritual to Judaism, churches that were rejected by the more universalist creed that became Catholicism. Thus, Hisa could accept an eighth dan from Ueshiba, and call what he did "aikido." A practitioner of both has informed me that Takumakai is very similar in it's technical parameters to Yoshinkai, not surprising in that both were born in the 1930's). When you go beyond or change to a certain degree, it warrants a name change.
4. Sagawa, Horikawa and Ueshiba EACH made their own unique changes to Daito-ryu. The former two obviously did not see their changes as so significant as to warrant a name change.
Best

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Old 07-31-2007, 11:40 AM   #4
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Mark -
2. I think Ueshiba was clear that one didn't have to be an Omotokyo follower to do his aikido - he had his own distance from Omotokyo, unlike Inoue Noriaki, for example. However, I do think that Ueshiba believed that to do HIS aikido, one had to live ANALOGOUS to his "spiritual" way. (Note in Tohei K.'s interview, Ueshiba's distress at observing Tohei, still hung-over after a debauch, doing "ki tricks.") As I wrote, however, in "Aikido is Three Peaches," I think it is clear that he regarded most people's work in aikido as merely contributing energy to the greater spiritual work of the avatars. (But one could BE an avatar. Read the revised version of the essay when the book comes out
3. I think it's simplistic to talk about two ways of aikido - there are, perhaps, a lot. My interest, however, is Ueshiba Morihei's aikido as "opposed to" any and all the other modern versions that don't, apparently, give access to the power he had. For example, Tomiki "had" it - whether, btw, he did solo training like Ueshiba did or not. Shioda apparently "had" it, etc. Whether to the same degree or greater or lesser - - ????? I don't KNOW that solo practice, a la Ueshiba is/was the only avenue to such power as he had. Evidently, even those few of his students who "had" it didn't pass it on to many or any. Similarly, were I exploring Daito-ryu, I would only be interested in the Daito-ryu that gave the very few individuals access to intrinsic power, not the vast majority who are just doing human origami joint-locks by the numbers.
Best
Thanks for the reply!

2. Soooo, any time frame on when the new book is due out? Is it completed? Still in progress?

3. Speaking of Tomiki ... any ideas on where he got "it"? From Mifune, possibly? And of Ueshiba Morihei's aikido, just how does one "do" his aikido?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 07-31-2007, 12:25 PM   #5
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

1. I am targeting winter as release date.
2. Tomiki strove to unite judo and aikido - -= therefore . . . . . . .
3. I'm told, by the way, that during his years as a prisoner of war in Russia, he kept his own sanity, kept the spirits of his fellow prisoners strong, by developing his solo tai-sabaki exercises. The reason I said/believe Tomiki "got it" are two-fold. The story I cited elsewhere from Hal Sharp re Tomiki throwing the ripsnorting foreign kenkusei of the Kodokan, one-by-one with one hand - after saying he was going to show them aikido. And an interview I can no longer find, where Oba, Tomiki's closest disciple came back after seeing a demo of Daito-ryu which had, I believe the waza where a number of people pin the teacher, and with a single move, he throws them off. And Tomiki said, "Oh, I can do that," got a bunch of people together and did. But apparently Tomiki didn't like to present this stuff and I do not believe that he taught it - I don't think, actually, that he believed it was germane to what he was trying to develop any more than Kano Jigoro did for judo.
4. Oh, and as for your last question - "And of Ueshiba Morihei's aikido, just how does one "do" his aikido?" - - - read your own signature quotation
Best

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 07-31-2007 at 12:28 PM.

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Old 07-31-2007, 12:54 PM   #6
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
1. I am targeting winter as release date.
2. Tomiki strove to unite judo and aikido - -= therefore . . . . . . .
3. I'm told, by the way, that during his years as a prisoner of war in Russia, he kept his own sanity, kept the spirits of his fellow prisoners strong, by developing his solo tai-sabaki exercises. The reason I said/believe Tomiki "got it" are two-fold. The story I cited elsewhere from Hal Sharp re Tomiki throwing the ripsnorting foreign kenkusei of the Kodokan, one-by-one with one hand - after saying he was going to show them aikido. And an interview I can no longer find, where Oba, Tomiki's closest disciple came back after seeing a demo of Daito-ryu which had, I believe the waza where a number of people pin the teacher, and with a single move, he throws them off. And Tomiki said, "Oh, I can do that," got a bunch of people together and did. But apparently Tomiki didn't like to present this stuff and I do not believe that he taught it - I don't think, actually, that he believed it was germane to what he was trying to develop any more than Kano Jigoro did for judo.
4. Oh, and as for your last question - "And of Ueshiba Morihei's aikido, just how does one "do" his aikido?" - - - read your own signature quotation
Best
1. Cool!

2-3. Thanks for the info!

4. ROTFL!!! I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that. Point taken. I am attempting to do that which my sig quotes.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 07-31-2007, 12:57 PM   #7
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

Great article Ellis, thank you.

I think the ways to the top of that mountain are unique to each individual. The "great ones" seem to have acheived their power in very individualized ways. We can learn the basics from good teachers but we must follow our own path to be great.
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Old 07-31-2007, 01:10 PM   #8
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

Quote:
And of Ueshiba Morihei's aikido, just how does one "do" his aikido?
Hi Mark...I'm not sure one *does* do "his" aikido. You gotta put in the work, and do **your own**.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-31-2007, 01:11 PM   #9
Erik Johnstone
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

Another excellent article; looking forward to "Hidden in Plain Siight".

Respects,

Erik Johnstone
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Old 07-31-2007, 01:11 PM   #10
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

And Ellis, wonderful article. Glad I got a preview!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-31-2007, 03:38 PM   #11
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Mark...I'm not sure one *does* do "his" aikido. You gotta put in the work, and do **your own**.

Best,
Ron
Hi Ron,

I was thinking more along the lines of doing aikido that resembled Ueshiba Morihei's as compared to the other aikido's. Hmm ... in other words, how does one know that one is following along Ueshiba Morihei's aikido rather than Ueshiba Kisshomaru's aikido?

Hope to see you soon,
Mark
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:59 PM   #12
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

I always enjoy Ellis's arguments. They are engaging and compelling. In this one I find some interesting points in the first few paragraphs.
Quote:
1. A secondary part of this discussion has been provenance: whether Ueshiba a) developed and maintained his skills using Daito-ryu methods exactly as he learned them or b) took the training methods he learned within Daito-ryu and reworked them into another set of practices.
2. A subsidiary question is whether such a hypothetical reworking was merely “old wine in new bottles,” or a new vintage, created through other training methods that Ueshiba subsequently learned or developed on his own.
3 Although some are quite adamant in their assertions regarding these questions, little can be proven, because even if the adamant ones possess the truth, they aren’t telling. Given that Daito-ryu is still mostly taught in closed dojo, and furthermore, that many teachers keep the higher-level training away from all but a few of their own students, Daito-ryu’s training methods are not accessible to most people, including, apparently, most Daito-ryu practitioners.
All interesting points and they set-up these observations of Ellis's
Quote:
4. Few are qualified to make any assertions of value regarding differences between the technical criteria and abilities of different lines of Daito-ryu and aikido, much less evaluate specific individuals.
Using Ellis's own reasoning:
Since there is no one qualfied as personal students of both Takeda's Daito ryu And Ueshiba's -specific- execution of HIS art. (they're all dead) and no one else who is a shihan of BOTH of these arts is talking- then his or anyone else's opinion of what Ueshiba did, or didn't change is of little value-if at all.,
So, Ellis sort of disqualifes himself, and all but an extremely....extremely small number of experts (both personal students of Takeda and Ueshiba) who are all dead. Who even when alive -never- talked about it in the first place!
It sort of makes the rest of the entire article and any discussion of it- moot.

Last edited by DH : 07-31-2007 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:21 PM   #13
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Mark...I'm not sure one *does* do "his" aikido. You gotta put in the work, and do **your own**.

Best,
Ron
Maybe a little tangential to Ellis' article, but this question has been vexing me of late. Why is this so? Why only in aikido are you expected to come up with your own martial art right off the bat?

As I have started work in another martial art I have become more and more aware that you change to fit the art first, then you explore the art and only then do you come up with your art. (see Teaching Shu Ha Ri) Concurrently, I continue in aikido training with just this method. And yet this does not conform to my previous experience in aikido or the reported experience of others. The uncharitable conclusion is that there were kata and a training method to be had and only few thought they were important or that at some point they were consciously abandoned. But, if so, why?

As you can see from my choices in training I feel that this "aikido of one" approach, so to speak, is the wrong approach.

-Doug Walker
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:37 PM   #14
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

I wanted to edit this in but ran out of time
So, Ellis sort of disqualifes himself, and all but an extremely....extremely small number of experts (both personal students of Takeda and Ueshiba) who are all dead. Who even when alive -never- EDIT...never really talked about much in the first place. Some of what they did say is in print!
It sort of makes the rest of the entire article and any discussion of it- moot. But once again-he captures you, and you read,

Last edited by DH : 07-31-2007 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:47 PM   #15
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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I wanted to edit this in but ran out of time
So, Ellis sort of disqualifes himself, and all but an extremely....extremely small number of experts (both personal students of Takeda and Ueshiba) who are all dead. Who even when alive -never- EDIT...never really talked about much in the first place. Some of what they did say is in print!
It sort of makes the rest of the entire article and any discussion of it- moot.
Moot it is, then. So let's not have any more assertions about Takeda that can't be substantiated. If Tomiki showed up at Ueshiba's dojo already with some ki skills, then those skills were available from a number of sources in Ueshiba's Japan of those days. Today's Aikido is obviously not today's Daito Ryu, though, so the point is that we're discussing different arts.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:52 PM   #16
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

Well, Dan, thank you for the perfect set up for my next essay, already written and coming soon And BTW - in regards to the part you cut (it still showed up on the email notice) - Exactly right! That's what I said - which, realizing that is perhaps why you cut it -
Note my phrase in bold - "In other words, you can't do aikido unless you can do Daito-ryu." I love it when you argue with me when you're in agreement with me.
Best

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 07-31-2007 at 07:03 PM.

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Old 07-31-2007, 07:06 PM   #17
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Moot it is, then. So let's not have any more assertions about Takeda that can't be substantiated. If Tomiki showed up at Ueshiba's dojo already with some ki skills, then those skills were available from a number of sources in Ueshiba's Japan of those days. Today's Aikido is obviously not today's Daito Ryu, though, so the point is that we're discussing different arts.
Regards,
Mike Sigman
So following your logic with Tomiki showing up.

Since Ueshiba had none and was literally crying when he met Takeda, in front of witnesses (no jin /kokyu and no Ki skills)
And showed up years later- with intent to open a dojo, he decided -on that day- after the culmination of his supposed "journey of the arts" to open the doors and teach..............? Daito Ryu.
His skills jumped again at Ayabe after Takeda joined him and his supposed secondary teacher was so impressed with what he saw takeda do with Aiki/ jin/ kokyu that he suggested he change the name of the art.
I don't necessarily care that he got it from DR or anywhere else...just that all logic says, he did.
Neither you, nor anyone else can "substantiate" anything other than that. So lets not have anymore of -your- assertions that can't be substantiated with affidavits and facts.

Last edited by DH : 07-31-2007 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:26 PM   #18
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Neither you, nor anyone else can "substantiate" anything other than that.
I'm not about to repeat myself that your asking others to prove the negative is a fatuous debate tactic. Let's leave it at "moot", shall we? For some reason, Ueshiba's ki skills seem to be much more "relaxed" than anything I get the impression that DR does. That's enough of a question in itself (although I'm not going to be silly and tell you that unless you can disprove it, I'm correct).

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:34 PM   #19
Fred Little
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
His skills jumped again at Ayabe after Takeda joined him and his supposed secondary teacher was so impressed with what he saw takeda do with Aiki/ jin/ kokyu that he suggested he change the name of the art.
Quote:
B: Then you did not learn aikido from the beginning. When did aikido come into being?

O'Sensei: As I said before, I went to many places seeking the true budo..Then, when I was about 30 years old, I settled in Hokkaido. On one occasion, while staying at Hisada Inn in Engaru, Kitami Province, I met a certain Sokaku Takeda Sensei of the Aizu clan. He taught Daito-ryu jujutsu. During the 30 days in which I learned from him I felt something like an inspiration. Later, I invited this teacher to my home and together with 15 or 16 of my employees became a student seeking the essence of budo.

B: Did you discover aikido while you were learning Daito-ryu under Sokaku Takeda?

O'Sensei: No. It would be more accurate to say that Takeda Sensei opened my eyes to budo.

A: Then were there any special circumstances surrounding your discovery of aikido?

O'Sensei: Yes. It happened this way. My father became critically ill in 1919. I requested leave from Takeda Sensei and set out for my home. On my way home, I was told that if one went to Ayabe near Kyoto and dedicated a prayer then any disease would be cured. So, I went there and met Onisaburo Deguchi. Afterwards, when I arrived home, I learned that my father was already dead. Even though I had met Deguchi Sensei only once, I decided to move to Ayabe with my family and I ended up staying until the latter part of the Taisho period (around 1925). Yes... at that time I was about 40 years old.

One day I was drying myself off by the well. Suddenly, a cascade of blinding golden flashes came down from the sky enveloping my body. Then immediately my body became larger and larger, attaining the size of the entire Universe. While overwhelmed by this experience I suddenly realized that one should not think of trying to win. The form of budo must be love. One should live in love. This is aikido and this is the old form of the posture in kenjutsu. After this realization I was overjoyed and could not hold back the tears.
That sounds like a clear statement that while he had learned "true budo" from Takeda, the insight that led to "aikido" as a distinct art was a direct result of his connection with Deguchi and Oomoto.

And he makes the point in a way that diminishes neither Deguchi nor Takeda, nor their respective teachings.

Best,

FL
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:47 PM   #20
DH
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm not about to repeat myself that your asking others to prove the negative is a fatuous debate tactic. Let's leave it at "moot", shall we? For some reason, Ueshiba's ki skills seem to be much more "relaxed" than anything I get the impression that DR does. That's enough of a question in itself (although I'm not going to be silly and tell you that unless you can disprove it, I'm correct).

Regards,

Mike Sigman
There is a straight road. You keep trying to take a left and prove the negative.
Actually Ueshiba's training history and inexorable connection to DR are clear enough. You're just another newer iteration of the same old song. That he "invented" or got his ki skills elsewhere.
And you're not able to discuss jin and Ki skills in DR. Your "impressions" of DR are virtually meaningless for several reasons.
But we can leave the point moot and you can just discuss Aikido.
Have fun.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:49 PM   #21
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

Oh please, Mother of God (and I'm Jewish) - not again!!! AGGHHGHGHGHGH Let this bundle of quotes put a stake through the heart of the question that will never die even though, most of the time, it was never asked!

Iwata Ikusai of aikido: "Ueshiba Sensei respected Takeda Sensei and studied under him. Takeda Sensei was very good technically. Ueshiba Sensei did his best to serve his master, Takeda Sensei, during his occasional visits to the dojo."

Tada Hiroshi (postwar aikido, please note) "Ueshiba Sensei always spoke very respectfully of his own teachers, including Sokaku Takeda Sensei and the Reverend Onisaburo Deguchi. The thing I remember most clearly from his talks about Daito-ryu is that he said he thought that it had a very excellent training method."

Kondo Katsuyuki (Daito-ryu, talking of aikido sensei's): '"Also although it was only indirectly, I have heard about Sokaku Takeda Sensei many times from Kenji Tomiki Sensei and Minoru Mochizuki Sensei." --Later-- "This is just my personal opinion, but Morihei Sensei studied Daito-ryu for over twenty years and served Sokaku Takeda Sensei as his master. Sokaku Sensei looked after Morihei Sensei as his student in various ways. There are many stories about this aspect of their relationship, illustrating the courtesy of a student towards his master and the affection of a master towards his student. This relationship continued for a period of time, and at a certain point Morihei Sensei began to seek his own path and eventually created modern aikido. Morihei Sensei was a great person, and I believe that anybody who can be called great always exceeds his master. I do not know that Morihei Ueshiba Sensei exceeded his master, Sokaku Takeda Sensei, in terms of technical ability, but I think that realistically speaking, Morihei Sensei far exceeded Sokaku Sensei in terms of number of students and also the extent of his reputation."

Tomiki Kenji (aikido) - "It may be only a digression but there is a certain person who studied longer under Takeda Sensei than Ueshiba Sensei. He is Mr. Kodo Horikawa, now 80 and very old." (interpretation - not only did aikido come from DR, but it still exists, and didn't end with Ueshiba.)

Saito Morihiro (post-war aikido): "O-Sensei told me often about the period when he trained in Daito-ryu. When he and I would work in the fields, were drinking tea or took meals together or sometimes when I would massage his shoulders or tap his legs he would tell me various stories." QUESTION Did he also talk about techniques?
"No, not much. Other subjects came out naturally. O-Sensei had a deep relationship with Daito-ryu."

Shirata Rinjiro (aikido), speaking of how beginners were taught at the Kobukan: "They learned techniques starting with the "ikkajo" of Daito-ryu Jujutsu from the uchideshi."

Kunigoshi Takako (aikido): " I received a makimono scroll entitled Daito Ryu. It seems to me that the name Aikido came into use just a little before the war started. It was almost as if the name Aikido was thought to actually indicate the Daito Ryu. Later whenever I was asked about it I always answered that it was Takeda Sokaku Sensei's tradition (ryu)."

OK? OK? Yeah, it's a public forum, but I'm so tired of getting side-tracked into a discussion of something I've not written, that was only a subject of debate among NON-JAPANESE SPEAKERS ANYWAY BEFORE PRANIN (B.P) and which get's so stale and old and hackneyed, and frankly, the only place the "DENIAL OF DAITO-RYU" ever was a problem was Doshu and his court trying to publicize the art, and non-Japanese who, until Stanley Pranin, had no historical reference, which, when you think of it was only about a decade and a half after aikido hit the states, for Gawd's sake. It's like non-Japanese saying, "What, Shotokan karate started in Okinawa? I didn't know that! There was a cover up!!!!!"
The subject of what I'VE been writing and curious about is exemplified by the following quote of Okamoto Seigo.
Kodo Horikawa Sensei used to say: "Once you reach a level such as yours, you become able to execute your own techniques based on what I have taught you. I didn't learn all the techniques I do now from Sokaku Takeda Sensei." Once you master a certain level and grasp the key points you become able to execute techniques of your own. Then these techniques of yours gradually sprout branches."
AND at a certain point, when one deviates enough from the source, one is required to rename it. (Ueshiba - aikido, Inoue - Shinei Taido, Mochizuchi - Yoseikan budo). Christ - Tomiki got in trouble with the aikido folks because he DIDN'T RENAME IT, given it was seen as "different enough"

Jaysuz

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Old 07-31-2007, 07:52 PM   #22
DH
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

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Fred Little wrote: View Post
That sounds like a clear statement that while he had learned "true budo" from Takeda, the insight that led to "aikido" as a distinct art was a direct result of his connection with Deguchi and Oomoto.

And he makes the point in a way that diminishes neither Deguchi nor Takeda, nor their respective teachings.

Best,

FL
Hi Fred
You might consider it was only after Takeda's prolonged visit at Ayabe that Ueshiba learned "Aiki" because he was ready. And it was after this earned a teaching certificate. It was Deguchi who was so impressed by ...Takeda...that he suggested -Takeda- change the name of the art to Daito ryu Aikijujutsu.

Last edited by DH : 07-31-2007 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:59 PM   #23
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Oh please, Mother of God (and I'm Jewish) - not again!!! AGGHHGHGHGHGH Let this bundle of quotes put a stake through the heart of the question that will never die even though, most of the time, it was never asked!
A valient effort, boychik, but vie'a toit'n beinkes!*









*means, basically, "it will work about as well as giving big, bulging eyes to a dead man (that he might see better)."
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Old 07-31-2007, 08:01 PM   #24
DH
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
The subject of what I'VE been writing and curious about is exemplified by the following quote of Okamoto Seigo.
Kodo Horikawa Sensei used to say: "Once you reach a level such as yours, you become able to execute your own techniques based on what I have taught you. I didn't learn all the techniques I do now from Sokaku Takeda Sensei." Once you master a certain level and grasp the key points you become able to execute techniques of your own. Then these techniques of yours gradually sprout branches."
AND at a certain point, when one deviates enough from the source, one is required to rename it. (Ueshiba - aikido, Inoue - Shinei Taido, Mochizuchi - Yoseikan budo). Christ - Tomiki got in trouble with the aikido folks because he DIDN'T RENAME IT, given it was seen as "different enough"

Jaysuz
A Jewish rant!! Oy!
Excellent and I agree. And I agree that he went on and made his own system. He did it with DR's aiki as he continued to train his body. Never said otherwse big fella.
But, enough already,

Last edited by DH : 07-31-2007 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 07-31-2007, 08:13 PM   #25
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Actually Ueshiba's training history and inexorable connection to DR are clear enough. You're just another newer iteration of the same old song. That he "invented" or got his ki skills elsewhere.
And you're not able to discuss jin and Ki skills in DR. Your "impressions" of DR are virtually meaningless for several reasons.
I don't have any "impressions" of DR nor do I care what kind of ki and jin skills DR has. ALL the Asian arts have those skills, Dan, at the upper levels. Your experience has left you with the settled impression that if Ueshiba had ki and jin skills he must have gotten them from DR. He probably got SOME skills from DR, but unless you have apodictic proof that Ueshiba got ALL his skills from DR then you're simply making a baseless assertion and a guess at best. There are a number of potential sources where Ueshiba could have gotten his preferred approach to ki and jin and no one can say for certain, one way or the other. Your constant reiteration that Ueshiba got what he knew of ki and jin from DR is simply unsupported; hence I tend to dismiss it as a possible, but not a proven fact.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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