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Old 07-25-2007, 03:06 PM   #76
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Kevin,

I usually find your posts very factual and reasonable...but...

Mark didn't say a word about stiff. YOU added that. Having trained with Mark a bit, I don't find him particularly stiff or likely to be so, even when resisting.

Uh, hyperbole anyone? As much as I respect good atemi...I've yet to meet anyone who actually DOES crush eyeballs with a finger thrust. Someone tried that with me once in a keiko session. It hurt, I said "keep going" and I made a point not to train with them anymore. But no crushed eyeball. Not even a scratch on my cornea. About a week later some white belt trashed them for acting out of place. Probably what I should have done.

Best,
Ron (must have been in a good mood that day)
I guess I'd have to experience what you are talking about. I'd say resistance is stiffness by definition. If he's not planted on two feet and using muscle tension, and he's not on top of her, using dead bodyweight, where is "full resistance" coming from? A fortuitous tail-wind?

Next, the point of the hyperbole was to show the absurdity of a categorical statement that atemi would make no difference. I suspect there are a whole range of targets and strike intensities that would soften him up and make the throw easier, as well as a few, like the ones I mentioned, that would make following up with a throw a moot point. Whether or not someone would likely poke your eye out or crack your sternum in an Aikido class is immaterial to the point. There are people out there who could. Scoffing at the prospect of being hit is foolish.
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Old 07-25-2007, 05:01 PM   #77
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I can pretty much guarantee you that most PPs will make a skilled fighter angry, and more likely to pound you...
My take on "skilled" fighters is that they generally try not to become angry. As I see it, a skilled fighter is more likely to "pound you" when he is calm, cool and collected.
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Old 07-25-2007, 05:27 PM   #78
DH
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

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Kevin Wilbanks wrote: View Post
I guess I'd have to experience what you are talking about. I'd say resistance is stiffness by definition. If he's not planted on two feet and using muscle tension, and he's not on top of her, using dead bodyweight, where is "full resistance" coming from? A fortuitous tail-wind?
Well if the drill was to grab in a way normal folk grab- then yes it will be muscle and the intent to hold and stop someone like most people do when they are trying to hold and stop someone from doing something.

If the exercise is to utilize a trained structure in grabbing then you can offer seriously substantial control in a grab or siezure wthout using the same muscle chain. Interestingly enough that use of structure is exremely difficult to capture, mainipulate or control in any way. In that sense atemi could be a good defense.

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Kevin Wilbanks wrote: View Post
Next, the point of the hyperbole was to show the absurdity of a categorical statement that atemi would make no difference. I suspect there are a whole range of targets and strike intensities that would soften him up and make the throw easier, as well as a few, like the ones I mentioned, that would make following up with a throw a moot point. Whether or not someone would likely poke your eye out or crack your sternum in an Aikido class is immaterial to the point. There are people out there who could. Scoffing at the prospect of being hit is foolish.
I think Mark was trying to explain the feeling he had of having his center captured. Whether or not you beleive it is possible is beside the point. What he did say was that he could NOT remove his hand or control himself fto punch. Agree or not, its pretty tought to tell someone that "they" donlt know what happened to "them" in a training encounter.
In time when you train this way, or lets say if you continue to train with me I teach you how to undo everything I do "to you." Thereby making it much harder for me to play you, and making it exceedingly difficult for others who do not train their bodies this way to do much of anything to you.

Last edited by DH : 07-25-2007 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 07-25-2007, 06:45 PM   #79
DH
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
My take on "skilled" fighters is that they generally try not to become angry. As I see it, a skilled fighter is more likely to "pound you" when he is calm, cool and collected.
Maybe Ron's point coincides with Budd's and mine. If you're not fighting your playing by agreed rules. and P.P's are going to annoy people without doing anything to really harm them. If you're going to be a jerk and annoy people outside of the rules, you might as well do soemething worthwhile. I was playing with a BJJ purple belt and he got frustrated because he couldn't get anything to work on me. Close to the end of his 5 minutes he started to "absent mindedly" cross-face me with his ulna, I dug my hand into his kidney and whispered "We don't really won't to go there do we?" He looked up at me in as if in surprise and aplogized. I felt like saying "Aplogize for what?" He knew what he did and was trying to motivate me to turn my head and expose my neck. And all that said, head butts, crossfacing, and liver and kideny short-strikes are more in line with real world substantial motivators and attacks not P.P.s
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:24 AM   #80
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think Mark was trying to explain the feeling he had of having his center captured. Whether or not you beleive it is possible is beside the point. What he did say was that he could NOT remove his hand or control himself fto punch. Agree or not, its pretty tought to tell someone that "they" donlt know what happened to "them" in a training encounter.
Either you are confused on a very rudimentary level, or you are deliberately trying to obfuscate. The stuff he said about atemi clearly stated that getting hit would have made no difference to him as uke, and that for nage to use atemi in that situation was not only useless, but remedial "to cover bad technique". Now, in defending him, you are claiming he made an entirely different point about "atemi" in the uke role. You have even taken the misdirection so far as to suggest that it has something to do with rigorous philosophy about the issue of subjectivity. Ridiculous.

As far as the rest of what you have said, it is convoluted. I am guessing that you are trying to argue that there is a way of thwarting someone else's techinque that involves staying mostly loose and directing your resistance along appropriate lines of force, deliberately outsmarting or outmaneuvering nage. I would call this grounding or neutralizing, not resisting.

If this is what is being talked about as "resistance" by the intial poster, then he is an unprecedented savant to have mastered such subtle skills at the sub-3rd kyu level. Moreover, I think anyone who has any experience in Aikido would agree that his insistence on applying that kind of masterful "resistance" to a 4th kyu trying to review for an upcoming test would make him an "asshole" by almost any stretch of the definition. Sounds unlikely to me. What sounds much more likely is that the resistance described is the same kind of crude tension that I have seen so many times i can't count them, the existence of which is vehemently denied by virtually everyone who exhibits it.
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Old 07-26-2007, 07:00 AM   #81
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

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I would call this grounding or neutralizing, not resisting.
Ah, difference in definitions. That explains it.

And we were no longer talking about the initial poster...we kind of moved on from that.

Best,
Ron

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Old 07-26-2007, 07:19 AM   #82
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Kevin, I don't want to speak for Dan or Mark, but from what Mark was writing, he was discussing a specific drill in which all the resistance (clamping down) he gave was immaterial when his center was taken. As Mark said, if his partner did not move properly, or tried using muscle, Mark wasn't going to move. If his partner did move properly, Mark got tossed. In that particular drill, a kind of resistance was called for to overcome appropriately. One could legitimately argue that atemi would change the drill, but it might not help in succeeding according to the aims of the drill.

I think where the subjectivity comes into play (again dealing with "appropriate resistance") has to do with the aims/conventions of a particular practice (within and between different "arts"). If I'm practicing in a line of aikido that comes from someone that was a professional boxer or skilled karateka, it wouldn't be suprising if there were also an emphasis on atemi integrated into the practice (how well integrated may also be subjective).

If my line of aiki practice emphasizes "capturing the center" of the other person on contact, then for the purposes of training drills, I may not be concerned about atemi at certain stages as much as having the connected body that enables this skill. Of course using the connected body to deliver atemi *rubs chin whiskers* . . . . I bet that's pretty interesting *ouch*.

As for the crude resistance you describe in the context you describe, I am still in agreement that it is combatively useless in the context you describe. I again have the image of the gi-clad oaf offering himself up gift-wrapped for either the "capture the center on contact" grappler or the "fix yourself in place so I can pop you" pugilist - or some scary combination of both . . . *shudder* . . . either way it won't be pretty (but likely very entertaining).

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Old 07-26-2007, 07:59 AM   #83
DH
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Hi Bud
For people who do and like what I call "the aiki game" (I'm not a big fan) the training method when one begins learning this new way of moving should include many static drills which are meant only to test what is going on inside their body. They are an indicator of their solo work progress. It's interesting for Aiki people who do wrist grabs and such-I'm not much interested other than helping them with their goals.
The real training is about movement, position and power. Standing still and or clamping down isn't something I am interested in for martial pursuits. Fluid, changing power is. "Capture center on contact" is something many talk about but I'd say the big caveate is whos center? And how do they train? It works fine for those deliver muscle power, but most any experienced grappler is going to dump out and change up if he doesn't get anything or runs into power. So, naturally anyone interested in a grappling game has to be able to change and continually move to set-up and take what he can. So learning to move in trained way where their center continually gets caught through a chain of movement makes it extremely difficult for you to get thrown while you can strike with more openings than you normally will get.

Last edited by DH : 07-26-2007 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 07-26-2007, 08:16 AM   #84
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Ah, difference in definitions. That explains it.

And we were no longer talking about the initial poster...we kind of moved on from that.

Best,
Ron
Difference in definitions maybe explains part of it. I guess I would call grounding just being heavy, passive - not moving. It can be done on a barco-lounger. It's hard to see how someone is going to call that "full resistance", as one is not really doing anything, including attacking nage. What I call neutralizing is relaxed but active - it involves moving in a way different than what nage is trying to get one to do, redirecting. Once again, this doesn't seem anything like "full resistance".

I can see what Budd is saying about the clamping down being a specific drill. I have been many places and trained with many people for whom almost all of Aikido is this kind of "drill". I don't really see much value in it.

Grabbing someone's arm, in and of itself, is not an attack. Resisting something that nage is trying to do to you is not an attack. In order for arm grabbing to become a meaningful attack, there has to be more: grabbing someone's arm and pulling them into your fist or knee, grabbing the arm and attempting a contol or lock, grabbing it to move it out of the way so you can attack their body, etc...

My understanding is that we practice techniques from a grab largely as exercises, to learn about the throw and the ukemi. The way to step it up is to make the grab part of an actual attack, not grab really hard and try to prevent a technique. As ukemi practice, it's awful - exactly the opposite of good ukemi, which is fluid, alive, trying to find openings, pressing the attack... As technique practice, it makes no sense to me. If I encounter that kind of resistance to something I'm doing, I need to change to something more appropriate to uke's energy. If their energy is that of a statue, there isn't much point in throwing them.
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Old 07-26-2007, 08:29 AM   #85
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

I think you don't have any context for the training being described. Perhaps if you get to train with the parties involved in the discussion, it will be clearer.

Best,
Ron

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Old 07-26-2007, 08:42 AM   #86
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Urgh.

Dan - Totally agree that "capturing the center" needs (with regards to grapplers - consider me the choir) to be fluid (unless there's some wrestler out there perfecting the one-on-one or two-on-one static wrist grab that I don't know about). But like you've also said, how to begin training this (in solo practice and drills)? I am also a fan of many aspects of the "aiki game" (darn contradicitons), so I see some overlap there. But, definitely, drills are drills, sparring is sparring, fighting is fighting.

I also remain extremely glad that you are still interested in helping .

Kevin - It really depends on the school/style. There are grabs in most every martial art that I've seen. My understanding as well is that the grab represents your connection to the other guy as something to work with. How this is done depends on the drill. Lots of different methodologies teach principles and create assumptions around these drills. Some are valid, some are silly. I think (which seems to be where the thread is heading) that the purpose of an increasingly rigorous method of freestyle practice is to test the merit of some of these principles/assumptions.

Again FWIW

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Old 07-26-2007, 09:15 AM   #87
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I'm going to say I disagree with some points that have been proposed. This is my opinion and my experiences, so take them as just that.

I recently worked with a woman who is about 5' 4", give or take an inch. I'm guessing her weight around 120. Small and petite. Me, I'm 5' 7" and 195 pounds. It's a good bit of muscle.

The exercise/technique was a same side wrist grab turned into a kokyunage type throw. The end result is that uke rolls away. (EDIT: I forgot to mention that she didn't move her feet at all throughout the technique.)

First: resistance.

I offered full resistance, leaving nothing behind. I actively tried to stop the technique. At various points in the technique, I even tried to disengage.

The result? This small, petite woman tossed me like a rag doll. I couldn't stop her, I couldn't muscle her, and I definitely couldn't disengage until I rolled out of it.

As far as resistance itself, I don't believe it is the "opponent". The "opponent" is oneself. That's what budo is about. Not uke's resistance. That doesn't matter if the person doing the technique is doing it right. There should be no resistance inside oneself.

Second: atemi.

She needed no atemi to complete the technique and have it martially effective. If one is using atemi to cover bad skills or abilities, then one is not using atemi properly. Within the training parameters, she needed no atemi. Although I'm sure, had she wanted to use one, I wouldn't have been able to stop her. I have about 75 pounds and a few inches on her. No way she can move me with muscle. In fact, there were a few times when she didn't move me at all because she didn't get the technique right. She tried using muscle and it didn't work. Had she used atemi, it still wouldn't have worked. It would only have covered bad structure/skill/ability.

Third: Cooperation.

Heh. None. I worked hard to stop her at every point throughout the technique and gave her not one iota of cooperation. She found the proper structure, kuzushi, tsukuri, and kake and all without using "muscle".

Lastly,
Had I not given full resistance, had I cooperated in any way, or had I not done my best; she would have never been able to walk away with the affirmed experience that what she was doing worked. It would have been a disservice to her and her training to allow any of that to come into play. And it would have been a disservice to me because then I wouldn't have experienced it working as a fully resistant uke. And let me tell you, there's nothing disconcerting like being in the middle of a technique (we did it all slowly) going, "Oh, sh$!, stop her! Stop her! Ugh, let go of her hand. Just let go", not being able to accomplish any of that, and then being forced to roll away.

How does that relate to other dojos and their training? Honestly, I don't know. Everyone has different ways of training. I can only speak about my experiences and offer my opinions.

Mark
This story would be an example of 'good training' with an educated approach at the helm. And an educated Uke, too. It does not sound at all like the same dynamic I was referrring to, which does come up fairly frequently in practice.

There are great situations like these that happen all the time. It is important to note that the leader in this story (I'm assuming that was you, Mark) is familiar with concepts of resistance and how they can work 'for' or 'against' us in our training and lives.
There are many ways to use resistance ,when we know what it is, and when we aren't just reverting to some knee-jerk pattern.

My main question regarding the posters grade still remains a mystery to me as does my question as to whether his sensei had already offered him feedback on the subject and what that might have been. Those are very important to my understanding of the intent and dynamic of thread starters dojo and training environment. My guess is he is way to 'young' in training to be handed such reins.
I can't see what happened but only in the words and attitude of the ots. It sounds like a condition that I would monitor very closely in my dojo.

jen

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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