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Old 07-21-2007, 09:58 PM   #76
Mike Sigman
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Al Gutierrez wrote: View Post
Mike, I asked you a number of questions back in my post #44 that you never answered. Rather than questioning Dan's answers to me why not just answer me directly?
Al, to a reasonable degree I've answered those questions in a few other threads, more than once. The how's and why's with diagrams and explanations. If I'd never discussed it, I would have given it a shot again, but I feel like I've given it some fairly good coverage in "Baseline Skillset" and other threads.

In terms of doing something automatically without thinking, we all learn to do many things like that. Driving, swimming, taking falls, etc. "Mushin" doesn't mean a lot more than that, in reality. It's why Sunadomari, Shioda, and others show that the critical moment is when Uke touches, grabs, attacks... your ki should mesh at that moment, technique or not. Shioda has a tape/dvd that shows a lot of emphasis on that one aspect, but I can't think of the exact name of the tape at the moment. When you touch someone you "feel" their holes and you combine with their forces automatically so that they go into a hole. Then you do a technique or you bounce them away or whatever. That's "aiki". Techniques are not important; only aiki is.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:18 AM   #77
Al Gutierrez
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
When you touch someone you "feel" their holes and you combine with their forces automatically so that they go into a hole. Then you do a technique or you bounce them away or whatever. That's "aiki". Techniques are not important; only aiki is.
Are you saying aiki is primarily a sensitivity and response skill?

How do you define a "hole" in this case? When you say holes I immediately think of a weakness or weakpoint in their body structure, form, or balance, or perhaps a strategic gap. Is that what you mean? Or something else?

I agree that individual techniques such as ikkyo or kotegaeshi are of lesser importance - and I can relate to some of the other posts that emphasized the keeping or maintaining of one's "equilibrium" (form, one point, balance, structure, contradictory tensions, etc...). I learned it as 'keeping ones integrity'. But techniques are still important, you have to be able to apply the skill otherwise it's like those monks that could easily be pushed over.

A.G.
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Old 07-24-2007, 07:11 AM   #78
DH
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Al

The monks that could be easily pushed over from a living or moving center is a good example of just what WE have been talking about.
People here continually get confused over a static training device/method and their brains go on neutral and they don't even hear the rest.

I am only concerned with skills that can be utilized under pressure and in motion. That said, thee single best method to developing a living center? Stillness. Then solo training drills.
Then and only then do you concern yourself with mastering it in motion. There is a thousand year history of this training method in all of the Asian arts we admire. The stories of solo retreats "to train" are so numerous they get boring. Just what do ya suppose they were doing out there, all by themselves?

Aiki
Aiki is not something you "do" in "response' passively. Nor is it something you "do" forcefully. From training, your motions become captured aiki in you. Therefore your motions have balanced intent. Contact with anything then creates potentials for aiki in motion. When you have retained structure in you- your body becomes unnaturally sensitive to structure in others. Think of thier motions coming in contact with a large distribution system. Your body receives and sends their power, absorbs and projects at will. What you don't address is the increased ability to generate power in strikes, particularly from short distances. If you are of a grappling bent these skills become a handy skill.

Unless you have mastered it in you-you'll never master it in moving connections. And, as the years go by, I still train solo; every, single, day. But don't take my word for it, read my tag line. The fully expressed quote from Sagawa says something like people would not believe the work that he does every day to master his body, and that most would find it too daunting. Most have noted, that many in aiki arts considered Sagawa one of the true masters of aiki if not thee best alive in his time.
The work he outlined as his best training method was? Solo training.
His goals in training?
Application-in- motion

Techniques
Techniques become secondary in concern. Pick a couple of different arts and go train them. You may be surprised at how you "suddenly understand" varous arts waza, both faster, and better as you move along.

Last edited by DH : 07-24-2007 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:53 AM   #79
Mike Sigman
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Al Gutierrez wrote: View Post
Are you saying aiki is primarily a sensitivity and response skill?
No, I didn't say that.
Quote:
How do you define a "hole" in this case? When you say holes I immediately think of a weakness or weakpoint in their body structure, form, or balance, or perhaps a strategic gap. Is that what you mean? Or something else?
Well, it has to do with someone's balance, but it's more something you feel through the jin/kokyu connection. Shioda and others often just show their skill with "holes", if you'll watch some of the multiple-attackers stuff. In a superficial way, you could say "Oh, that's just balance", but it's a more subtle thing. "Listening" is a term that applies to it.
Quote:
I agree that individual techniques such as ikkyo or kotegaeshi are of lesser importance - and I can relate to some of the other posts that emphasized the keeping or maintaining of one's "equilibrium" (form, one point, balance, structure, contradictory tensions, etc...). I learned it as 'keeping ones integrity'. But techniques are still important, you have to be able to apply the skill otherwise it's like those monks that could easily be pushed over.
I think it's easy to play the internal-strength card too much and miss the mark, too. Aikido without kokyu/internal-strength is not really Aikido... but someone with some internal-strength skills does not necessarily have any Aikido skills, either. In fact, my position is more along the lines that an Aikidoist without internal skills is no more than an amateur and someone with some internal skills but no real Aikido training is no more than an amateur commentator, either. Both miss the mark.

If you think back to the videos that show O-Sensei "bouncing" someone away who pushes on his chest, thigh, etc., that's cool ...and in a way those sort of demonstrations are used throughout Asian martial arts to show a glimpse of the "essence" of Asian martial arts. But those kinds of demo's can actually be done fairly easily and without a lot of training, yet the demonstrater may have no real martial skills at all. In fact, that's too often the case... the guys whom you see in so many different Asian videos from so many different styles are showing this acme of martial skills, but it's a facade. I'm reminded of an incident in which some yiquan guys challenged members of the Beijing SanDa team and the average yiquan guy lasted about 14 seconds... all those "bounce aways" skills, etc., didn't pay off, even though they really do nominally represent the essence of martial arts (that's a long discussion in itself, though).

On the other hand, just the techniques of Aikido (or other arts) can be meaningless, too. If we take a rudimentary technique like a simple "push", it's pretty obvious that there can be pushes using the jin/kokyu, etc., and there can be pushes using just arms and shoulders. Obviously, pushes (a technique, right?) using just arms and shoulder are wrong. Ikkyo and kotegaeshi using just arms and shoulder are wrong, too, by extension of logic. Pretty much everything can be extrapolated from that starting point.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:24 AM   #80
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Besides which, if you master this, you really break balance on contact. Which means almost ANY waza is now possible. If the balance break is severe enough, the waza becomes almost besides the point.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:36 AM   #81
Erik Johnstone
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Besides which, if you master this, you really break balance on contact. Which means almost ANY waza is now possible. If the balance break is severe enough, the waza becomes almost besides the point.

Best,
Ron
This has been precisely my experience (on the receiving end of course! )

Hey Dan! I'll talk to you soon!

Mike:

There are quite a few Shioda videos out there...any chance that you (or perhaps Ron) might be able to pin down the one that you are thinking of?

Thanks!

Erik Johnstone

Respects,

Erik Johnstone
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:17 AM   #82
Mike Sigman
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Erik Johnstone wrote: View Post
There are quite a few Shioda videos out there...any chance that you (or perhaps Ron) might be able to pin down the one that you are thinking of?
I like this one, Erik, but I can't remember where I got in (from the internet, though). Someone should be able to tell us:
http://www.neijia.com/ShiodaDVD.jpg

Best.

Mike
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:24 AM   #83
Erik Johnstone
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I like this one, Erik, but I can't remember where I got in (from the internet, though). Someone should be able to tell us:
http://www.neijia.com/ShiodaDVD.jpg

Best.

Mike
Thanks, Mike. Probably can get it through Mugendo Budogu.

Respects,

Erik

Respects,

Erik Johnstone
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:33 AM   #84
Fred Little
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

From today's NY Times:

Fascinating.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/24/he...eYtxTYZEvTxeVg
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Old 07-24-2007, 12:31 PM   #85
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
From today's NY Times:

Fascinating.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/24/he...eYtxTYZEvTxeVg
Yeah, that is interesting. Thanks Fred
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Old 07-24-2007, 04:31 PM   #86
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Thank you for the link, Fred.

My 90-year-old father has had that condition for years, caused by repeated strain from his trade as an automotive and marine upholsterer. He retired at age 82, and at that time the fascia of his hand was so thick that you could see bands of it drawing his fingers inward. He had surgery to correct it, but the tissue has grown back over time even though he no longer is putting the stress on his hand that he did when he was punching grommets, cutting leather and leatherette with upholstery scissors, and other manual chores.
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:03 PM   #87
Fred Little
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

To those of you who said "thanks for the link," you're quite welcome.

To those of you who haven't clicked it yet, do so quickly, because it will soon disappear behind the NY Times subscription wall.

It's an amazing piece that makes it clear how profoundly important the fascia is in defining our range of motion, as well as providing a look at a comparatively new and radically non-invasive form of "surgery" which has shown astonishing results in restoring flexibility and function to hands suffering from fascia-related limitations.

Best,

FL
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:13 PM   #88
tarik
 
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
To those of you who said "thanks for the link," you're quite welcome.
Thanks, it was quite fascinating.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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