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Old 07-11-2007, 08:17 PM   #151
DonMagee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I had a guy decide in a fit of spaz (he is new and young) to drop elbows inside my guard tonight. I moved my head and have a very nasty welt on my shoulder from where he hit me. In this case I used a very mean wrist lock (gooseneck like kotogeshi) that my aikido teacher showed me to fip him over on his back so I could dig my hooks in and choke him a little harder then I normally do.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-12-2007, 06:20 AM   #152
Budd
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Don, play nice with the newbie spazzes!

We get wrestlers in from time to time that are immensely powerful, but aren't used to using their bodies in the new sub grappling context. What's nice is that if you can stay coordinated, relaxed and stick to them, you often have more time to get the ideal setup into the tap (without having to muscle or "yank" anything - just good position). What's not so nice is that some of the scrambles wth these guys have put people through walls.
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Old 07-12-2007, 07:51 AM   #153
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I wish I had a camera, I moved my head out of the way just in time, but I now have a welt solid purple about an inch and half in diameter on my shoulder. It's a little annoying. I usually just lock them down and wait for them to run out of energy. But last night I got a little carried away because it actually hurt.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-19-2007, 11:32 PM   #154
nikau
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

4 years ago i saw a technique used by a friend of mine before i started aikido, against 2 rugby players trying to tackle him AND the same tehcnique on a another firend who is a bjj who tried a single leg take down.

i only learnt what that move was since starting aikido.

BUT he also taught us (rugby players) how to avoid being smashed out of a ruck in rugby by applying the same principle.

The technique was kaiten nage.

When we attempted to tackle him he stepped swiftly accross into the forearm with his hip and turn with us. We'd become a gate where he was the hinge. He always made sure there our shoulder went past him. If he was hit him with our shoulder he was toast. But if he made contact with the forarm there's not a lot of strength there to hold your own body weight with.

When he used kaiten nage he used the same movement but instead of contact with the hip, he'd extend catch the arm coming toward his hip, and raise it to his center as he rotated. Our own momentum sent us flyiing. (none of us at the time knew how to take ukemi by the way).

I believe if u wre as good as my friend at kaiten nage and applying it in this situation THIS could be good agianst a take down?
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Old 07-20-2007, 05:00 AM   #155
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Justin Nixon wrote: View Post
4 years ago i saw a technique used by a friend of mine before i started aikido, against 2 rugby players trying to tackle him AND the same tehcnique on a another firend who is a bjj who tried a single leg take down.

i only learnt what that move was since starting aikido.

BUT he also taught us (rugby players) how to avoid being smashed out of a ruck in rugby by applying the same principle.

The technique was kaiten nage.

When we attempted to tackle him he stepped swiftly accross into the forearm with his hip and turn with us. We'd become a gate where he was the hinge. He always made sure there our shoulder went past him. If he was hit him with our shoulder he was toast. But if he made contact with the forarm there's not a lot of strength there to hold your own body weight with.

When he used kaiten nage he used the same movement but instead of contact with the hip, he'd extend catch the arm coming toward his hip, and raise it to his center as he rotated. Our own momentum sent us flyiing. (none of us at the time knew how to take ukemi by the way).

I believe if u wre as good as my friend at kaiten nage and applying it in this situation THIS could be good agianst a take down?
Possibly...I think we called it the Whizzer in my jujitsu days but its definitely based on kaiten nage.
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Old 07-20-2007, 05:58 AM   #156
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Not really. Kaitenage is actually quite different than a whizzer. First off, kaitenage is an underhook on a person's arm, while a whizzer is an overhook. Kaitenage is focused on control near the elbow joint while the higher a whizzer is, the better.

Also, no, kaitenage is not a good defense in relation to a single leg or a double leg take down. I'm not sure how popular it is in Australia, but go to any high school wrestling team here in the States and try kaitenage while someone shoots in on you will be repeatedly hitting the mat.

Keith Lee
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:51 AM   #157
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Keith Lee wrote: View Post
Not really. Kaitenage is actually quite different than a whizzer. First off, kaitenage is an underhook on a person's arm, while a whizzer is an overhook. Kaitenage is focused on control near the elbow joint while the higher a whizzer is, the better.

.
I'll take your word for it Keith, its 4 years since I did jujitsu now, for me kaiten nage is just a generic term I've seen used for these rotational throws which vary widely across the various teaching styles of aikido.
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:36 AM   #158
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I have quoted on this matter before, but I do believe I have come up with a simplified solution to this problem, if on some instance you are forced to fight a BJJ....Here's the secret.....Ready?....Sure you're ready?.....Use Aikido!
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Old 07-20-2007, 08:27 AM   #159
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Sean Vayda wrote: View Post
I have quoted on this matter before, but I do believe I have come up with a simplified solution to this problem, if on some instance you are forced to fight a BJJ....Here's the secret.....Ready?....Sure you're ready?.....Use Aikido!
Gee, thanks, Sean, I'll keep that in mind.
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:25 AM   #160
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote: View Post
Not really. Kaitenage is actually quite different than a whizzer. First off, kaitenage is an underhook on a person's arm, while a whizzer is an overhook. Kaitenage is focused on control near the elbow joint while the higher a whizzer is, the better.

Also, no, kaitenage is not a good defense in relation to a single leg or a double leg take down. I'm not sure how popular it is in Australia, but go to any high school wrestling team here in the States and try kaitenage while someone shoots in on you will be repeatedly hitting the mat.
hello

I would say that the arm movement of kaiten, in tha particular instance would be like a "bras à la volée" xommon in catch as catch can, free wrestling and so on.

And if it is the only thing you try do do with katien, well it has almost no chance to succede against a shoot.
But from my limited understanding that is not a proper kaiten either . we are missing the control of the head. Even in "normal" aikido situation if you do not tuck the head toward his chest, he can walk of the throw, he will not have a reason to break fall at all.
Let alone in the case of a shoot where if we do not compromise his structure (or base), we will go splat as he will destroy ours either by tankig our knee or our hips.

In fact controlling the head and in such manner and moving a leg back, is the medieval wrestling response to a shoot and SLT/DLT
The only modification to kaiten is you control the head before the arm.

phil

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Old 07-20-2007, 09:57 AM   #161
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
hello

I would say that the arm movement of kaiten, in tha particular instance would be like a "bras à la volée" xommon in catch as catch can, free wrestling and so on.

And if it is the only thing you try do do with katien, well it has almost no chance to succede against a shoot.
But from my limited understanding that is not a proper kaiten either . we are missing the control of the head. Even in "normal" aikido situation if you do not tuck the head toward his chest, he can walk of the throw, he will not have a reason to break fall at all.
Let alone in the case of a shoot where if we do not compromise his structure (or base), we will go splat as he will destroy ours either by tankig our knee or our hips.

In fact controlling the head and in such manner and moving a leg back, is the medieval wrestling response to a shoot and SLT/DLT
The only modification to kaiten is you control the head before the arm.

phil
Yes, using hasuji (cutting angle) and kuzushi (balance breaking) both. Arms can be manhandled from almost any position in the ways I've been taught.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-20-2007 at 09:59 AM.

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Old 07-20-2007, 09:59 AM   #162
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote: View Post
Not really. Kaitenage is actually quite different than a whizzer. First off, kaitenage is an underhook on a person's arm, while a whizzer is an overhook. Kaitenage is focused on control near the elbow joint while the higher a whizzer is, the better.

Also, no, kaitenage is not a good defense in relation to a single leg or a double leg take down. I'm not sure how popular it is in Australia, but go to any high school wrestling team here in the States and try kaitenage while someone shoots in on you will be repeatedly hitting the mat.
I've done kaiten nage myself and seen a variant used in BJJ matches (in response to a leg shoot). Agreed that it's not like a whizzer. When used effectively in a grappling environment - it's much more like a three-quarter nelson, in that you're controlling the head and spine by breaking the structure of the other guy via your connection to him.

It's usually not the big projecting throw as seen in aikido demos, but more of a forced roll onto the back (good opening for side control unless the guy has a killer guard). Depending on the competition rules against neck/spine cranks it isn't always allowed. The thing is - you have to sprawl first.

If you don't know how to sprawl (or pass block from football, which kickboxer Maurice Smith used very effectively against Mark Coleman in the early UFCs, musta been all them grass drills), then a good leg shoot is going to give you lots of problems as it 1) often causes someone unused to it to bend over - breaking their own structure and allowing the opening for kuzushi/off-balancing 2) the incoming force then whips that person back the other direction, which is what capitalizes on the off-balancing and causes the takedown.

The good news is that a lot of aikido folks already have a sprawl in their arsenal - it's just called mae ukemi (it helps if the emphasis is to drop down to the ground quickly, rather then a jump up in the air). Good grapplers still get taken down, though, so don't forget that you have ushiro ukemi to allow yourself to fall into the best position to get ready to get back to your feet.
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Old 07-21-2007, 06:15 AM   #163
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Yeap I agree with budd here, even if I am not to sure about the backward break fall. They usually transition to side control to set up a mount as you are being tipped over. But may be if you are in front of the technique…. (I never tried, and I am not sure I am good enough to pull it off)

It just occurred to me that may be that Keith Lee was thinking of kaiten when the guy is quite far away from us. To do that one our opponent needs to mess up. (ie shooting from too far) so I think I can see where Keith is coming from

I think Budd and I are talking when the head of this opponent is much closer to us.
If you have the head as for a normal kaiten throw, there is not that much he can do SLT BLT wise (and it make getting the arm easier), So even if can not get the arm there is still a few options, as we still have the head (like pile driving it onto the mat and putting your knee onto his neck)

In any case the kaiten is more like the kaiten knife defense, it leads “easily” to a nikkio sankkio pin (the one with one knee on the shoulder).

Again as Budd said, a good shooter is difficult to stop, usually because he will create a situation he has a good opportunity anb we have a small opportunity to defend.
On thing that I find very smart about shot is that even, if we are on posture and resist the initial impact, our side is realy realy easy to access, so it is very easy for himto turn the line of action of the shoot by 90 degrees, which give access to the unstable side of any bipedal posture.

phil

Last edited by philippe willaume : 07-21-2007 at 06:20 AM.

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Old 07-21-2007, 05:23 PM   #164
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Also, as I mentioned before - in an unarmed (especially sporting/training) context, you need to be able to sprawl to effectively enter into the oncoming force. You then need to follow up on the sprawl with something else, because a good shooter will take your sprawl and still latch onto a leg or hip that he can use to further break your structure.
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Old 07-21-2007, 06:14 PM   #165
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I tried to pull a flying armbar off a single leg takedown yesterday, the results were very funny. My neck really hurts. I think I'll stick to sprawls or turning away and rolling into an omoplata.

- Don
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Old 07-21-2007, 06:57 PM   #166
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

LOL @ Don

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-21-2007, 08:31 PM   #167
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

You could do the flying guillotine, (no relation to the classic Kung Fu flick, though that was a nifty movie), but then you'd have all the pro wrestling fans yelling, "DDT!!"
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Old 07-21-2007, 09:27 PM   #168
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I've been having a lot of success lately with what Eddie Bravo calls the "100 %" in his "JJ Unleashed" book. Sprawl->single butterfly hook->sweep->Harness movement.

Keith Lee
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Old 07-22-2007, 12:40 AM   #169
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Excuse my ignorance, but are we still talking about an Aiki techniques to neutralize a BJJ attacker?

What' are those omoplata, flying guillotine, sprawl, single butterfly hook, sweep, and Harness movement?
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Old 07-22-2007, 06:36 AM   #170
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Maumote Chami wrote: View Post
Excuse my ignorance, but are we still talking about an Aiki techniques to neutralize a BJJ attacker?

What' are those omoplata, flying guillotine, sprawl, single butterfly hook, sweep, and Harness movement?
Those are all BJJ techniques. Which, , work surprisingly well against a "BJJ" attack. Funny how that works out, huh?

Keith Lee
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Old 07-22-2007, 07:47 AM   #171
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Yeah, but you know they all have technical analogues in the aiki paradigm. I already pointed out sprawl = mae ukemi and kaiten nage = 3/4 nelson. It helps if you learn how to grapple to see the technical similarities, so me just saying it won't really do anything for you unless you go try it out (friendly-like!) with grapplers.

They don't usually bite and can provide very good reality checks.

Keith, I gotta get that Eddie Bravo book. He's made some interesting (hopefully not all chemically altered ) points about combining aspects of no-gi BJJ and Greco-Roman wrestling.
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Old 07-22-2007, 12:20 PM   #172
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Keith, I gotta get that Eddie Bravo book. He's made some interesting (hopefully not all chemically altered ) points about combining aspects of no-gi BJJ and Greco-Roman wrestling.
Yeah, JJ Unleashed is good but, "Mastering the Rubber Guard" (which is what I think you're referring to) is unbelievable. It is, unquestionably, the best MA book I have ever seen. High resolution, color photographs; every technique is shot from two angles so there is never any question as to how someone is positioned. Every move is flow-charted out as to how they sync together. A large portion of the book focuses on transitions between positions and a large section is also devoted on how to deal with people when they attempt counters. The book is really an incredible resource, if you want to expand your half-guard/rubber-guard game.

I like the rubber guard stuff, but Eddie's half-guard system has completely changed the way I roll. Being in half-guard (on bottom) has switched from being a defensive position to me, to almost assuredly getting a sweep. It's really great and a lot of it is (as you said) Greco-Roman based. I can't recommend it enough to anyone who is interested in grappling.

Keith Lee
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Old 07-22-2007, 02:07 PM   #173
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Yeah, even before seeing EB's stuff, I tended to have a much stronger offense (subs & sweeps) from half guard - from a pure grappling perspective. In more of a MMA ruleset, my short, stubby limbs and I greatly prefer to NOT be on my back
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Old 07-23-2007, 12:20 AM   #174
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground...
Unfortunately, there is truth to their boast.

In reality, most people who walk through the door of any dojo of any art want self-defence. Somewhere along the way, they forget this little fact and become content with whatever they are being taught. They trust the system.

The reality is, they would be far better served for self-defence by doing boxing and wrestling for one year. And even if they quit after one year, what they learned would serve them for the next ten.

Tell me it ain't so, ...

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Old 07-26-2007, 04:53 AM   #175
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote: View Post
Well, one of my best friends is a sandan (we met at our Aikido dojo) and we train in BJJ together on a regular basis. So...pretty often.
Can Aikido beat BJJ?
Can my sandan beat your sandan?

But seriously, this type of thread goes in circles because everything isnt that cut and dry. What is aikido? - as if everyone even practices the same style of aikido...and aikido came out of another art, and the same with BJJ, etc. (evolution my friends)

So, my 3rd dan and 4th dan could probably beat most peoples dans and BJJs as well. And as I move up, I will to.
Evolution.

Its all Ego my friends, labels. You cant grow or be 'master' with making an identity out of the sport you train.

Adaptation.

Thats what happens with us.
We have ground training involved - suppose it has to do with our 4th dan (Imre Marton of Hungary) is also a black belt in Judo - as well as a black belt in a couple other arts that actually involve weapons...so things trickle down.

So again, our aikido is not stagnant and is evolving and incorporating life applications. I saw someone say they were happy to practice tanto dori now that they are shodan - nice, but Im no kyu and Im already practicing that.

Point simple - 'aikido' cant beat BJJ, etc. - the argument can continue to go in circles on the base level.
Adaptation, and skill, and yes, strength (sure doesnt hurt when someone skilled like you is facing you) go a long way.

And of all people, I would think most of you would realize this.
You guys know of MMA, JeetKundo concepts. We already know one art cant do it all.

Imagine BJJ crawling on the ground like some animal waiting for you to fall. Of course they will do something that isnt ground technique to hope to get you down - and they cross train - dont they

So when we drop the 'my art' is 'it' we wont have these type threads that keep popping up.

In this modern age with so much technology, ideas, techniques available to us...martial arts has evolved. Let us not forget that the military learns how to just eliminate the fight before they are on the ground wrestling - they kill the opponent.

So the above puts to rest quite quickly all the ego talk of who is the best...if there were no rules, the military techniques would win...but someone would be badly injured or killed.

It life, have fun...enjoy your ikkyos if your an aikido or your rolling on the ground if you BJJ, or you bloody noses if your a boxer.

Peace

Dalen

Last edited by dalen7 : 07-26-2007 at 05:02 AM.
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