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Old 07-09-2007, 02:49 PM   #26
Mike Sigman
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Mike --

Would the following be part of the second phase of that exercise?
I could be, Fred, or it could be part of the more general opening/cleansing/Earth-Heaven type of exercise. I've seen Ueshiba Sensei do that small portion that his still picture comes from... I *think*... but it's difficult to tell from just one still picture. Bear in mind that most breathing exercises are going to revolve around the basic principles, so often they're just somebody's personal take on "here's what I think is the best way to develop ki/qi in the most effective way using the least amount of steps to cover the range of the whole body".

The exercises Tohei shows are pretty basic ki developers, not very fancy. There are a lot of pro and con views to what's the best thing to do (everyone has an opinion about relax, tighten or don't tighten the dantien, amount of pressure, reverse-breathe or natural breathe, and so on down the line) and according to Ted Ehara's recent post, these exercises came from Ueshiba, so they're worth the focus of examination.
Quote:
I do believe I have a copy of "Ki in Daily Life" at home, but I have no idea what edition. That's on the short list of "books I now keep hidden because too many copies have disappeared and I'm tired of replacing it."
I have the same problem. Better yet, I give one away that I haven't had recourse to look at in 20 years and immediately the next week I need it back.

If you don't have that book at home, PM me and I'll send you a photocopy of some interesting but illegal pictures I have in a file.

Best.

Mike
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Old 07-09-2007, 04:57 PM   #27
Fred Little
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

I went down into the basement as soon as I got home. It's cool in the basement, so I was motivated.

And there on the shelf was the 1978 Edition, 10th printing, with said instructions and photographs from page 61 through 69.

I incorporated the seated method so many years ago that I forgot where it came from, but have never really worked on the standing version.

One more point to work on.

Many thanks,

FL
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Old 07-09-2007, 06:01 PM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
I incorporated the seated method so many years ago that I forgot where it came from,
If all you incorporate are the simplistic instructions from that book, then it won't get you anything, frankly. But each to his own, I allus sez.

Best.

Mike
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Old 07-11-2007, 08:54 AM   #29
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Mike --

Would the following be part of the second phase of that exercise?



I do believe I have a copy of "Ki in Daily Life" at home, but I have no idea what edition. That's on the short list of "books I now keep hidden because too many copies have disappeared and I'm tired of replacing it."

Best,

FL
This picture of O'Sensei, and Doshu in the shadows, looks like shin kokyu practice, as we call it.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-11-2007, 09:16 AM   #30
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
This picture of O'Sensei, and Doshu in the shadows, looks like shin kokyu practice, as we call it.
So, what are you focusing on when you do this practice? In relation to internal, fascia, and tensegrity?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 07-11-2007, 09:16 AM   #31
ChrisMoses
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
This picture of O'Sensei, and Doshu in the shadows, looks like shin kokyu practice, as we call it.
I think he's telling a story about a watermelon and Doshu is clapping...

That's a joke.

Shin kokyu would be an interesting place to apply some internal body skills and/or pick Anno Sensei's brain about. There's a lot in there, or at least those movements have a lot of potential, IMHO.

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Old 07-11-2007, 03:33 PM   #32
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Shin kokyu would be an interesting place to apply some internal body skills and/or pick Anno Sensei's brain about. There's a lot in there, or at least those movements have a lot of potential, IMHO.
And Anno Sensei is in town this week.

Sadly, I doubt I'll have a chance to talk to him this time around, although I've an invite to visit him in the home he's staying in.

I think shin kokyu has a lot of religious overtones, but it certainly contains a number movement practices that appear to be in line with internal development, when practiced correctly.

From previous encounters over the years, I'm not sure that his focus on shin kokyu is the same as those looking for internal skills.

Most of the shin kokyu instruction I've witnessed doesn't appear to offer students a lot of detail and individual feedback or correction with respect to posture, focus, and managing appropriate internal tensions. Although occasionally discussed and demonstrated, it's appears to be taught more as a mental and spiritual exercise with the physical components taking more of a back seat or presented as aids to the mental. I know that I can use the exercise in different ways and get different results.

But I could certainly be wrong, as he does execute technique in a very relaxed manner and moves his feet rather than his arms when he wants to affect uke and once in a while shows things that are quite different than the experimentation he openly teaches in his seminars. But it's a bit hard to evaluate from memory when my own understanding of these things has changed so radically in the last two years.

Something to try and ask about then, this week, if I can free up time and get a chance.

Regards,

Last edited by tarik : 07-11-2007 at 03:38 PM.

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:30 AM   #33
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
So, what are you focusing on when you do this practice? In relation to internal, fascia, and tensegrity?

Thanks,
Mark
Hi Tarik, I'm glad to hear that you got an invitation in the mail to see Anno Sensei while he is here. I got a letter from Aikido Santa Cruz, too. Mine wasn't an invitation.

Tarik went into the practice as we've done it with Anno sensei in the post above. We don't, as he said, take it apart in such intellectual terms. Partially because that is a science language that isn't included in the language that Anno Sensei speaks. Anno Sensei is a retired paper mill worker who spent the bulk of his life working and training and studying when he wasn't caring for his family or Hikitschi Sensei. He teaches Aikido organically and in the language of the founder. A beautiful reminder that intellectualism isn't neccessary (necessarily).
My ear;ier American teachers taught it in different ways. Mostly to ground your feet deeply(Ten), align your spine to the heavens(Chi) and row evenly from the hips while keeping your head up (high heavenly bridge). Anno Sensei speaks of I-Ku-Mu-Su-Bi and following the five circulations of breath as we meditate and row at the same time.
The meditations of The sun goddess, the Water spirit of purification, and the Position we occupy in the center of the Web are progressed throughout the practice.
The entire practice is circled in a meditation of the power of Nature and the "thread" of mankind: musubi.

The movements of the practice are like those of aiki warm-ups. They look kinda funny on their own, and then, wadda ya know, joe? They are the very same movements that are applied in the execution of technique during class. When done for their own sake, they are entirely powerful and releasing.

I try not to clog up my mind with thoughts of fascia, tensegrity and anything at all when I'm doing this or any practice. What emerges in the context of the exercise, while my mind is released from it's over involvement and is involved in the actual movement, is much greater than anything I could have ever thought to meditate on ahead of time. Whatever gifts of education, delight,sorrow, experience, work, relational issues, good books I've read, conversations I've had, or any stimulus to my being is open for emergence during my practice. It is grounded in the form and the leadership of the sequence, but it is a form of heart purification and inner intellience to allow all of my gifts equal room in the body of my practice. Turns out they all have an equal place and an equal bareing (sp.?) . Sometimes thoughts of the fascia variety emerge, simply, when they do.

Not to run you around. This is just my best answer as I hear your question?
Do you practice Shin Kokyu?

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-13-2007 at 09:34 AM.

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Old 07-13-2007, 09:40 AM   #34
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

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I think he's telling a story about a watermelon and Doshu is clapping...

That's a joke.

Shin kokyu would be an interesting place to apply some internal body skills and/or pick Anno Sensei's brain about. There's a lot in there, or at least those movements have a lot of potential, IMHO.
Yay!!!!Watermelon .
Ha,Ha,Ha....I think Anno Sensei would laugh at this. He is also very childish in that beautiful O'Sensei way.

I'm sure glad there's humor in the world.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:05 AM   #35
tarik
 
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Hi Tarik, I'm glad to hear that you got an invitation in the mail to see Anno Sensei while he is here.
No letter, just the usual generic invite to the retreat and a verbal invite to visit from Anno's host when running into him at the grocery store. Unfortunately, I have some significant family obligations this week and I'm not sure I can even spare an hour to introduce him to my daughter much less talk about aikido, so I had to send my regards.

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
We don't, as he said, take it apart in such intellectual terms.
....
A beautiful reminder that intellectualism isn't neccessary (necessarily).
He does talk about focusing on certain energies or principles (as you mention); specifically certain kami and what they represent in the practice and how we should meditate and visualize what they represent and flow through us. It's an interesting approach that can be seen as intellectual in a mystical sense, but certainly not in the latter day scientific sense wherein science tries to explain why instead of just being content with being.

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Partially because that is a science language that isn't included in the language that Anno Sensei speaks.
But he has also talked at times very firmly about budo in terms that were less than poetic and more direct and specific. I've heard him use technical terms that were not included in some of the translation I've experienced, so it all goes through our internal filters of what we are personally studying and capable of comprehending in that moment.

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
The movements of the practice are like those of aiki warm-ups. They look kinda funny on their own, and then, wadda ya know, joe? They are the very same movements that are applied in the execution of technique during class. When done for their own sake, they are entirely powerful and releasing.
The technical side Chris is curious about it, correctly done, these exercises have the potential to refine significant internal skills. Yet many people (some here would say most) who practice these exercises for a long time, show no such skills. So the conclusion becomes that something has either been lost in the teaching or that it is being hidden in plain site, with important details being omitted except for certain dedicated students who are let in on the differences.

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I try not to clog up my mind with thoughts of fascia, tensegrity and anything at all when I'm doing this or any practice.
When I practice this now, the first thing I try to pay attention to is my posture and my structure, and adjusting the tension and relaxation in my body appropriately and the integrity of my movements. Then I try to empty my mind to focus on the various meditations as they come, but I'm still weak on posture, structure, etc., so I periodically return to trying to fix that. :-)

Lately, however, I generally work on simpler solo and paired exercises that have direct practical application to my training. I really have no idea if they develop 'internal' skills, but they definitely are slowly helping me to use my body as a single unit instead of a collection of individual coordinating pieces and are much more about what I am doing instead of what I am doing to uke.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 07-13-2007, 01:16 PM   #36
Franco
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

This "fascia" stuff is fascinating. I looked up 'fascia' in wikipedia and I thought the following paragraph was interesting:

Quote:
Deep fascia can contract. What happens during the fight-or-flight response is an example of rapid fascial contraction . In response to a real or imagined threat to the organism, the body responds with a temporary increase in the stiffness of the fascia. Bolstered with tensioned fascia, people are able to perform extraordinary feats of strength and speed under emergency conditions. [12] How fascia contracts is still not well understood, but appears to involve the activity of myofibroblasts. Myofibroblasts are fascial cells that are created as a response to mechanical stress. In a two step process, fibroblasts differentiate into proto-myofibroblasts that with continued mechanical stress, become differentiated myofibroblasts. [13] Fibroblasts cannot contract, but myofibroblasts are able to contract in a smooth muscle-like manner.
Question for Mike Sigman: when you talk about "the fascia stuff", does it have anything to do with training the fascia to make it stronger and/or to "teach" it contract and relax?
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Old 07-13-2007, 01:28 PM   #37
Mike Sigman
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

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Franco Cuminato wrote: View Post
Question for Mike Sigman: when you talk about "the fascia stuff", does it have anything to do with training the fascia to make it stronger and/or to "teach" it contract and relax?
It's both, Franco. However, a lot of the worries about this type of training is that when done wrongly, it can be harmful, rather than beneficial. Think of the analogy of curing and tanning a hide: stretching it over a frame, scraping it, beating it, applying chemicals, etc. If you don't really know how to cure a hide and you use the wrong procedures, etc., in the process, then you can end up ruining the hide. Same is true of the qigongs/breathing-methods. The safest methods are done (you have to know what to do) softly and for long periods of time, much like the methods illustrated (but not described very well) in some of Tohei's books, etc. I always remember something I read about where someone in northern China figured out how to make qigong practices safer so that not so many people wound up hypertensive, etc., as they used to do in southern China. Apparently, it took that information a few hundred years to leak out to some of the southern Chinese.... indicating that it's not obvious. The sophistication of the breathing methods in Japan is difficult to evaluate, but it's a safe bet that the information is limited in that respect, so people should be encouraged to constantly look and evaluate, IMO.

Best.

Mike
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Old 07-13-2007, 08:59 PM   #38
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
No letter, just the usual generic invite to the retreat and a verbal invite to visit from Anno's host when running into him at the grocery store. Unfortunately, I have some significant family obligations this week and I'm not sure I can even spare an hour to introduce him to my daughter much less talk about aikido, so I had to send my regards.

He does talk about focusing on certain energies or principles (as you mention); specifically certain kami and what they represent in the practice and how we should meditate and visualize what they represent and flow through us. It's an interesting approach that can be seen as intellectual in a mystical sense, but certainly not in the latter day scientific sense wherein science tries to explain why instead of just being content with being.

But he has also talked at times very firmly about budo in terms that were less than poetic and more direct and specific. I've heard him use technical terms that were not included in some of the translation I've experienced, so it all goes through our internal filters of what we are personally studying and capable of comprehending in that moment.

The technical side Chris is curious about it, correctly done, these exercises have the potential to refine significant internal skills. Yet many people (some here would say most) who practice these exercises for a long time, show no such skills. So the conclusion becomes that something has either been lost in the teaching or that it is being hidden in plain site, with important details being omitted except for certain dedicated students who are let in on the differences.

When I practice this now, the first thing I try to pay attention to is my posture and my structure, and adjusting the tension and relaxation in my body appropriately and the integrity of my movements. Then I try to empty my mind to focus on the various meditations as they come, but I'm still weak on posture, structure, etc., so I periodically return to trying to fix that. :-)

Lately, however, I generally work on simpler solo and paired exercises that have direct practical application to my training. I really have no idea if they develop 'internal' skills, but they definitely are slowly helping me to use my body as a single unit instead of a collection of individual coordinating pieces and are much more about what I am doing instead of what I am doing to uke.

Regards,
glad I could help.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 07-16-2007, 01:22 AM   #39
Aran Bright
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Franco Cuminato wrote: View Post
This "fascia" stuff is fascinating. I looked up 'fascia' in wikipedia and I thought the following paragraph was interesting:

Question for Mike Sigman: when you talk about "the fascia stuff", does it have anything to do with training the fascia to make it stronger and/or to "teach" it contract and relax?
Okay that blows it for me, I have been studying anatomy for over five years now and had never heard of fascia contracting in any other fashion than becoming stiff and rigid, never to unlock again except through stretching, time to re-evaluate I guess.

BTW, you gotta love wikipedia!

Within the framework of a tensegrity structure it does become quite obvious now how fascia and muscle can create forces beyond that which use muscle alone. Gee, imagine that!

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Old 07-16-2007, 07:57 PM   #40
Al Gutierrez
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

A few thoughts, comments and questions:

All this talk about fascia makes sense to me regarding the traditional notions of ki/kokyu in Japanese budo; at least to the extent that ki & kokyu are both part of aikido.

It seems to me that the skills talked about in this thread are perhaps really more "advanced skills". Mike & Dan are arguing that they were part of Aikido or should be the baseline skills upon which aikido ought to operate - but have become lost or obscured - or "hidden in plain sight" as Ellis muses in his series of blogs. Why were they hidden? Why do you guys think they should be the "baseline" and not the advanced ideal for which we all should aim?

On another note, where do you guys draw the line or difference between ki and aiki? Or ki skills and aiki skills?

A.G.
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Old 07-16-2007, 08:13 PM   #41
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Al Gutierrez wrote: View Post
It seems to me that the skills talked about in this thread are perhaps really more "advanced skills". Mike & Dan are arguing that they were part of Aikido or should be the baseline skills upon which aikido ought to operate - but have become lost or obscured - or "hidden in plain sight" as Ellis muses in his series of blogs. Why were they hidden? Why do you guys think they should be the "baseline" and not the advanced ideal for which we all should aim?
Cuz anyone can manifest the *basic* skills talked about with a couple of years of dedicated, smart training. Of course the degree of effectiveness will vary with the individual.
The real fun begins after the first 3-4 years (as I'm finding out)

Last edited by Upyu : 07-16-2007 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 07-16-2007, 08:32 PM   #42
Mike Sigman
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

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Al Gutierrez wrote: View Post
On another note, where do you guys draw the line or difference between ki and aiki? Or ki skills and aiki skills?
Y'know, I was thinking about one of the basic, officialish Aikido books that was put out by Kisshomaru Ueshiba many years ago and in it, IIRC, he was fairly clear about the place of ki in Aikido... IF you already knew what he was talking about. I'll have to see if I can spot a copy locally somewhere.

The short answer to your question is that ki is basic. In fact, that's what all that stuff in the Ki Society tries to do... a concurrent training of "ki" with your Aikido. "Aiki" is the blending of your ki with the opponent's force. Sometimes/often that blending *also* involves a technique, getting off the centerline, or whatever, but the essential idea is not really just the "blending" of technique, it's the instantaneous and automatic (mushin) adjustment of your ki so that there is a resultant direction Uke is forced to go because of something he initiated himself. That's more what "aiki" means. If it was just "blending via technique", why would that be any different than physical judo and why would O-Sensei have made such a big deal out it?

Best.

Mike
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Old 07-16-2007, 10:01 PM   #43
Franco
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Robert:

I'm gonna make every effort to go and see Akuzawa and you in Seattle. Do you think that with a weekend seminar, someone like me, with no real understanding of ki, can get started on the road of internal strength development?
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Old 07-17-2007, 01:53 AM   #44
Al Gutierrez
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
The short answer to your question is that ki is basic.
Basic to what Mike? Doesn't "basic" somewhat depend upon the relative skill level of the person? In other words, to an untrained, unskilled person, what is basic may be simply pushing and pulling with normal muscle strength.

What's basic to someone with some training may be the application of technique (using movement/position/leverage) to overcome brute strength. Basics for an expert technician might involve a deeper understanding of the principles of physics, physiology, and even psychology, and how they enable techniques to work. We might say the expert is able to bring together principle and technique to overcome even the techniques of younger, faster, stronger opponents.

Am I wrong to think that basic really involves more 'external' skills - like taisabaki, skeletal alignment, posture, and form? And the 'internal' body skills mentioned here and elsewhere in these discussions (such as the baseline skills thread) are really more advanced?

Since when did utilizing subtle and sophisticated conditioning of the fascia through secret breathing techniques, mental imagery and/or mentally spreading and directing forcepaths throughout the soft tissues of the body via the tensegrity-like structure of fascia in order to resist pushing from any direction become basic, baseline skills?

Although these body skills seem "basic" to those more advanced practitioners who have spent years working to cultivate and condition their bodies the way that Sagawa, Kimura, Ueshiba, Shioda, Tohei, Abe, Inaba, Ushiro, Master Sum, CXW, Akuzawa, and apparently even our own Mike, Dan & Rob seem to have done. Judging from the reports of folks who've experienced you all first hand, it seems to me these are rather uncommon/advanced skills.

Quote:
"Aiki" is the blending of your ki with the opponent's force.
Nice concise way of putting it. Easier said than done though, I suppose.

Quote:
Sometimes/often that blending *also* involves a technique, getting off the centerline, or whatever, but the essential idea is not really just the "blending" of technique, it's the instantaneous and automatic (mushin) adjustment of your ki so that there is a resultant direction Uke is forced to go because of something he initiated himself. That's more what "aiki" means.
So the 'essential' idea is really training/conditioning of the fascia to adjust the supporting tensegrital (?) or soft tissue structure of the body automatically in such a way as to blend with and repel the opponents attack? How is it that this "essential idea" is only sometimes or less often the means of blending with an attack than an actual technique is? What did you mean by that?

Is this "essential idea" done intentionally or not? Tohei says the mind leads the body. Here you said the ki is adjusted automatically without thought (mushin), elsewhere you speak of directing forces with your mind, which is it? If this is basic how do you that?

Could you expand a bit on just how you "adjust your ki instantly & automatically so that uke is forced to go because of something he intitiated himself"? Can you give some examples of 1.) how do you train to develop this ability? And 2.) how you would actually use it in a technique like say aidori ikkyo or katate dori shihonage?

In particular, I'm curious how you understand the role that the tensegral structure of the fascia and/or ki & kokyu plays out martially, in other words, in the basics of these two techniques vs the more standard external methods usually exemplified by other posters.

Rob, Dan and Ignatius, if you care to comment, I welcome your feedback here as well. If you prefer, please substitute a basic BJJ or MMA technique for the ikkyo and shihonage examples.

Thanks for these stimulating threads and discussions, I look forward to your responses and comments.

A.G.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:25 AM   #45
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Al Gutierrez wrote: View Post
...Why do you guys think they should be the "baseline" and not the advanced ideal for which we all should aim?

A.G.
I agree with Rob. Regardless of whether you call these skills advanced or basic: (a) new students can work on them directly under a competent teacher and (b) expect very, er, notable progress after only a couple years of hard work.

Tom
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:18 AM   #46
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Al,

I'm guessing Mike means "basic" as in it's fundamental to what makes AI-KI-DO aikido and that it serves as a basis which supports the existence of or that which determines the essential structure or function of Aikido. IOW, no ki no Aikido.

Perhaps this video of Shioda might elucidate what Mike means by "adjust your ki instantly..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DiNQ...elated&search=

Particularly from 0:54 - 1:02, and then again at 1:32, 2:33 - 2:38.

As for how to train this, I think there are generally 2 ways to do so... by "packing" the breath and/or "twisting and winding". I'm not really qualified to discuss this in detail as to what that specifically entails, but that's what I understand it to be...

Maybe a general example might help convey the idea (as I understand it).

If you've ever pumped up a bike tire, it's essentially the same idea. The tire itself is generally soft and rubbery. But as you keep pumping air into the tire, the tire gets harder and harder. So, when we're talking about "fascia", the inner tube of the tire is basically what we're generalizing the fascia to mean.

As for how to use it in a technique, it's simply too complicated to detail exactly how, and probably quicker to show/feel it. The other side of it is, if you have "on demand" access to use it, you wouldn't need a "technique" specifically.... as evidenced by the video above.

Ignatius
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Old 07-17-2007, 06:48 AM   #47
MM
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
He teaches Aikido organically and in the language of the founder.
I don't suppose you'd care to expand upon those two concepts? Never heard of teaching organically and I'm curious as to what the language of the founder is.

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
My ear;ier American teachers taught it in different ways. Mostly to ground your feet deeply(Ten), align your spine to the heavens(Chi) and row evenly from the hips while keeping your head up (high heavenly bridge). Anno Sensei speaks of I-Ku-Mu-Su-Bi and following the five circulations of breath as we meditate and row at the same time.

Do you practice Shin Kokyu?
Yes and no? From your descriptions, I might be doing something similar, but then again, words are words. Physical and mental actions are not. Sounds close, but you just don't know until you experience it.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 07-17-2007, 07:12 AM   #48
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

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Al Gutierrez wrote: View Post
A few thoughts, comments and questions:

All this talk about fascia makes sense to me regarding the traditional notions of ki/kokyu in Japanese budo; at least to the extent that ki & kokyu are both part of aikido.

It seems to me that the skills talked about in this thread are perhaps really more "advanced skills". Mike & Dan are arguing that they were part of Aikido or should be the baseline skills upon which aikido ought to operate - but have become lost or obscured - or "hidden in plain sight" as Ellis muses in his series of blogs. Why were they hidden? Why do you guys think they should be the "baseline" and not the advanced ideal for which we all should aim?

A.G.
Hmmm ... maybe look at it this way. You have basic skills, advanced skills, and then you have baseline skills. Basic skills could be things like simple body structure. While baseline skills could be the underlying skills that an art is taught from, or the foundation.

So, fascia manipulation can actually be a more advanced skill, but it still can be a baseline skill for aikido. Does that make sense? Body structure (as talked about in the baseline skills thread) can be a basic skill but also a baseline skill for aikido.

Mark
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Old 07-17-2007, 07:30 AM   #49
Mike Sigman
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

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Al Gutierrez wrote: View Post
Basic to what Mike? Doesn't "basic" somewhat depend upon the relative skill level of the person? In other words, to an untrained, unskilled person, what is basic may be simply pushing and pulling with normal muscle strength.
Well, it's not that hard to have someone doing a few basic movements "with ki" on a first day meeting, in my opinion. That's a start; the basics. The core technique of "aiki" is going to be built around ki, when it's done correctly. I personally don't see any big problem with delineating ki/jin skills as "basic". But it would probably have to be shown to you in order for you to appreciate the perspective.
Quote:
Am I wrong to think that basic really involves more 'external' skills - like taisabaki, skeletal alignment, posture, and form? And the 'internal' body skills mentioned here and elsewhere in these discussions (such as the baseline skills thread) are really more advanced?
I would argue that each one of those things (taisabaki, posture, etc.) can be done 2 ways: with or without ki abilities. I think the ki abilities should come first or at least concurrently. Tohei apparently thinks the same thing, BTW.
Quote:
Since when did utilizing subtle and sophisticated conditioning of the fascia through secret breathing techniques, mental imagery and/or mentally spreading and directing forcepaths throughout the soft tissues of the body via the tensegrity-like structure of fascia in order to resist pushing from any direction become basic, baseline skills?
I dunno.... ever been at a dojo and the instructor wanted to do some misogi breathing so they booted out the new guys? Doesn't happen. Anyone can do those kinds of exercises, IMO. Once in a blue moon I'll do a freebie meeting with an older group that just wants a soft but beneficial exercise and I'll teach them a basic, helpful, and non-mysterious form of that same breathing approach.
Quote:
So the 'essential' idea is really training/conditioning of the fascia to adjust the supporting tensegrital (?) or soft tissue structure of the body automatically in such a way as to blend with and repel the opponents attack? How is it that this "essential idea" is only sometimes or less often the means of blending with an attack than an actual technique is? What did you mean by that?

Is this "essential idea" done intentionally or not? Tohei says the mind leads the body. Here you said the ki is adjusted automatically without thought (mushin), elsewhere you speak of directing forces with your mind, which is it? If this is basic how do you that?

Could you expand a bit on just how you "adjust your ki instantly & automatically so that uke is forced to go because of something he intitiated himself"? Can you give some examples of 1.) how do you train to develop this ability? And 2.) how you would actually use it in a technique like say aidori ikkyo or katate dori shihonage?
Eek! Answering those kinds of questions would take more writing time than I have this morning, Al, since I'm packing for a flight this afternoon. Get Dan to answer you.

Besides, I think I've answered most of your questions in various posts to AikiWeb over recent years, so it would be redundant. PM me and maybe I can point you to where some of these things are written out and discussed.

Best.

Mike
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Old 07-17-2007, 10:00 AM   #50
Upyu
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Re: Understanding fascia and tensegrity

Quote:
Al Gutierrez wrote: View Post
Is this "essential idea" done intentionally or not? Tohei says the mind leads the body. Here you said the ki is adjusted automatically without thought (mushin), elsewhere you speak of directing forces with your mind, which is it? If this is basic how do you that?

Could you expand a bit on just how you "adjust your ki instantly & automatically so that uke is forced to go because of something he intitiated himself"? Can you give some examples of 1.) how do you train to develop this ability? And 2.) how you would actually use it in a technique like say aidori ikkyo or katate dori shihonage?
Dont have time to shed light on all the questions.
But as far as the mushin questions, thats easy.
Basically youre rewiring your nervous system, so in training your *yi* or mind will be in overdrive, just like Tohei says.
But when you go for real theres no time to be goin *so my mind leads the "qi" to the hand annnnddd oh look, theres a foot headed towards my head*

Training this ability depends on whatever exercise you prefer, for me its Cross, Shiko, and Body axis training with some Hsing-I five elements thrown in for good measure. (Ever wonder why the chinese do these movements super slow?)

Another point though is that, when you "fight" someone else, all you do is try to maintain your equilibrium. Dan has said this before as well. Its all about "you" and you alone. You have no time to be worrying about your opponent and setting him up really.
So as you "equalize" your body and consequently neutralize your opponent, youre automatically adjusting your "ki" with respect to your "opponent".
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