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Old 07-05-2007, 10:04 PM   #26
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

People who think that because Yoshinkan is precise and rigorous, it must also have fewer aikibunnies than other styles, are sadly mistaken.

In fact, I think that sometimes the precision and rigor encourages aikibunny behavior, because there's the notion of "technical correctness" rather than just immediate feedback from your partner.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:21 AM   #27
JAMJTX
Dojo: Aikibudo Seishinkan
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
I take ukemi for my own shihan on a regular basis...the energy most people consume wielding a pencil, he can use to break a wrist. I am not underestimating Shioda Sensei, but I know when things are being exaggerated a bit.

I especially like the part where the ukes swing the bokken, miss, then proceed into a perfect breakfall. Yeah, I can definitely see the real pain there.
I'd suggest you find a local Yoshinkan dojo and feel it for yourself. Then come back and tell us if there was no pain. If it's as woosified as you seem to think it is, you won't even work up a sweat so this is not much of a challenge for you. I look forward to your report here.

Jim Mc Coy
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Old 07-06-2007, 07:30 AM   #28
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
People who think that because Yoshinkan is precise and rigorous, it must also have fewer aikibunnies than other styles, are sadly mistaken.

In fact, I think that sometimes the precision and rigor encourages aikibunny behavior, because there's the notion of "technical correctness" rather than just immediate feedback from your partner.
At early stage, when one is learning the roots/fundamentals, it is important to to be precise technically. Once you are at intermediate level, you can experiment more in jiyu-waza session. You get plenty of partner feedback then.

Paul, the signature precise and robotic pedagogically approach in Yoshinkan is mainly pedagogical. Nothing more, nothing less.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-06-2007, 07:52 AM   #29
Roman Kremianski
Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
I'd suggest you find a local Yoshinkan dojo and feel it for yourself. Then come back and tell us if there was no pain. If it's as woosified as you seem to think it is, you won't even work up a sweat so this is not much of a challenge for you. I look forward to your report here.
Again, I did not say the ukes are completely faking their pain. I do Aikido no softer and I know what it is. It's the spontaneous break falls they do that I brought up.
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Old 07-06-2007, 09:38 AM   #30
Nikopol
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

"I like Shioda Sensei...but why are his ukes always so over-eager? "

Um.. because he is a legend and the father of Yoshinkan? That should be obvious. Also remember that most of the videos we see are him in his seventies; when he was young he was apparently hard as nails, and earned his admiration. What would you have the ukes do? Get him in a headlock and start shouting 'See he is not invincible!' or perhaps just stand there and cluck, 'um, no, that lock isn't really working, Sensei'. Put yourself into the dojo environment where we have discipline, respect, co-operation and gratitude, all to enhance our learning and better our characters. It's not as if the videos have cartoon sound effects!
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:11 PM   #31
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

I think Vincent's pretty much right.
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Old 07-08-2007, 09:49 AM   #32
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

So you've just basically confirmed the whole thing is staged out of respect for Shioda Sensei. I guess I understand.
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Old 07-08-2007, 10:18 AM   #33
aikilouis
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Roman, you seem to be determined to conform what you see to your own opinion.

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Old 07-08-2007, 11:21 AM   #34
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
Vincent Nikopol wrote: View Post
"I like Shioda Sensei...but why are his ukes always so over-eager? "

Um.. because he is a legend and the father of Yoshinkan? That should be obvious. Also remember that most of the videos we see are him in his seventies; when he was young he was apparently hard as nails, and earned his admiration. What would you have the ukes do? Get him in a headlock and start shouting 'See he is not invincible!' or perhaps just stand there and cluck, 'um, no, that lock isn't really working, Sensei'. Put yourself into the dojo environment where we have discipline, respect, co-operation and gratitude, all to enhance our learning and better our characters. It's not as if the videos have cartoon sound effects!
About ten years age my dojo was considering hosting a shihan that was coming through the area to another dojo. We watched the video of his training and weren't impressed in any particular direction with him. But he did,obviously,have very great basic aiki waza. His ukes didn't seem to be very aggressive and he didn't appear to be very dynamic or have much of a personality at all. In faith and opportunity, we decided to host him despite our luke warm responses to the VIDEO.
Let me tell you how grateful we were that we could discern the difference between the flat dimension of film, empty of ki filled editing or aesthetics, and the reality of energy that is present in people and practice. In other words this teacher was fantastic. Warm, powerful, precise, humble, skilled and respectfully well learned under O'Sensei. He was a walking temple of tradition. He was able to fill our huge dojo with a spirit that was latent before he arrived. And we trained, in deep inspiration, in his lessons for the entire year. That is ki. That is power. And it was the difference between opinion and experience. That was the difference between the video and reality. Energy, presence and truth and a little faith in between.

If a person doesn't want to put their money where there mouth is in training and step into deep territory with a teacher that they are skeptical of, then they are just talking about a landscape based on a map to people who have actually been there. People on the path know the difference.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-08-2007 at 11:30 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-08-2007, 02:22 PM   #35
Dewey
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Let me tell you how grateful we were that we could discern the difference between the flat dimension of film, empty of ki filled editing or aesthetics, and the reality of energy that is present in people and practice....

If a person doesn't want to put their money where there mouth is in training and step into deep territory with a teacher that they are skeptical of, then they are just talking about a landscape based on a map to people who have actually been there. People on the path know the difference.
Cool! Filmed aiki never really conveys the reality of what's actually going on. Call me a wimp, but I would have no desire whatsoever to be an uke for Shioda Shihan...may he rest in peace!

It's easy to be skeptical of filmed aiki. It looks fake because it's only 2-dimensional. Stepping onto the mat and actually being an uke with another skilled Aikidoka is an eye-opening experience. We have an assistant instructor in my dojo who has earned high dan ranking in other arts (Judo and Kenpo) as well as Aikido...not to mention having been a CQC instructor in the Marine Corps decades ago. He's pushing 70 years old, but can still easily mop the floor with any of us, dan and kyu alike! He always rebuffs us for not "attacking sincerely!" He expects us to take real swings at him, or attempt to "take him to the ground" (as grapplers like to call it). I hate being his uke!

Shioda Shihan had developed a reputation for being tough & hard, even though I never studied under him or personally know anyone who has. I will not begrudge him of that, regardless if some folks don't find his filmed demonstrations convincing enough to their satisfaction.
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:10 PM   #36
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Simply put, some of the teachers with whom I have trained were reputed to be brutes and we were advised to enter with caution. I figured a short time of pain was worth the lifetime expereince to touch the hand of a master and to survive the lesson. I figured right. I got used to experiencing pain as a by-product of a larger educational experience. That attitude has led me in many courageous endeavors, not just on the mat.

I'm liking your posts these days Brian. I also read your comments on Ueshibas Aikido Not the Best forum about film and ki. True is true.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-08-2007 at 07:15 PM.

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Old 07-08-2007, 10:28 PM   #37
Roman Kremianski
Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
He expects us to take real swings at him, or attempt to "take him to the ground" (as grapplers like to call it). I hate being his uke!
Pretty intriguing sensei! Has anybody stepped up so far?

Just curious...
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Old 07-08-2007, 10:46 PM   #38
Dewey
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Pretty intriguing sensei! Has anybody stepped up so far?

Just curious...
Well, whenever he instructs class, he expects your best. However, it's a sliding scale when it comes to the class taught. In the Beginner's level class, he's "easy" on you (I still remember the nikkyo he did on me months ago ). However, from what I hear about in the Advanced level classes (I'm still in the kyu level), he can be pretty intense (that old drill sarge comes out ). He's 69 years old, so he's too old for "throwdowns" and the like, besides the fact that he's simply not interested in such things. He's been around the block and has nothing to prove to anyone...that's why we're honored to have him at our dojo, and it's an honor to study under such a man.

As well, we're not that type of dojo. We're into the Art of Peace.
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Old 07-08-2007, 11:01 PM   #39
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Not talking about a throwdown mate! If an instructor was to openly invite a take down attempt, I would do it simply to see what technique he'd apply!
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:12 AM   #40
wayneth
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUtQ1VA-qnY

This to me is a good example that shows Shioda Sensei and his ukes ain't faking being thrown, since there are several perfect examples of his ukes taking honest ukemis. Well thats my opinion on what they are doing anyway.

wayne
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:09 AM   #41
Basia Halliop
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Uh... you might have been better off not posting that second video... the first video looked pretty decent, maybe the odd moment here and there but overall pretty solid and respectable. I didn't really see what the fuss was about...

This one, sorry, but parts of it look to me like a clever Charlie Chaplin routine (or maybe something out of the Princess Bride -- our intrepid hero is attacked by an oafish bumbling giant who keeps tripping over himself, and juggles said oaf around without pausing in his witty conversation with the pretty girl), and now I can finally see what people are complaining about. .

As a stage performer it's entertaining, but as a martial artist, the way it's set up makes him look kind of silly and undermines him, which is a shame because it looks like he's actually good.
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