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Old 07-02-2007, 12:03 PM   #1
David Orange
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Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

One of the most interesting sites I've come across lately:

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/ki.../chapter1.html

A great read, especially for those who think Nuclear is a smart alternative for human needs.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:59 PM   #2
ChrisMoses
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Unfortunately much of it was a hoax. According to some sources she doesn't even ride a bike. She did take a bus tour and brought a motorcycle jacket and helmet to use in pictures. She didn't have any special access, and bikes are not allowed in the zone at all, nor are solo tourists, only escorted bus tours. It's too bad, she makes some good points and took some good pictures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elena_Filatova
http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/20...true-thing.asp

(I swear I'm not just following you around the board David, I ride a bike and this thing was all over the motorcycle forums I frequent a few years ago. We were all kind of pissed to find out she'd lied about it, takes away from the general sense of truth.)

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Old 07-02-2007, 01:29 PM   #3
David Orange
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Unfortunately much of it was a hoax.
Well, that takes away some of it, but there's a lot of content there, videos of people cleaning up the reactor, scientist-eye-view of the burning reactor core from a helicopter. Some really fascinating things about the damage to the surrounding zones, maps of the "forbidden" and uninhabitable area, etc.

Even if she didn't actually ride it all on a motorbike, there's a lot of super stuff there.

Thanks for the links, though.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 07-04-2007, 02:53 AM   #4
stelios
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

What really makes me furious is that nobody learnt anything at all from the Chernobyl accident. In a world where political cost is the only obstacle to clean energy (solar,wind,geothermal), some sad individuals still campaign about nuclear energy. Shame...
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Old 07-04-2007, 06:21 AM   #5
Mark Uttech
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

A question that follows me around; if radiation is so dangerous and lasts for thousands of years, why in the world does anyone go to such a dangerous place to protest or sightsee? I would appreciate any kind of answer.

In gassho,

Mark
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:10 AM   #6
maxwelljones
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
Stelios Papados wrote: View Post
What really makes me furious is that nobody learnt anything at all from the Chernobyl accident. In a world where political cost is the only obstacle to clean energy (solar,wind,geothermal), some sad individuals still campaign about nuclear energy. Shame...
Nuclear reactors actually vary quite a bit in design. The plant at Chernobyl used four RBMK-1000 reactors, and in line with Soviet engineering of the era when they were built, the design was motivated by politics instead of safe engineering principles. The RBMK does not represent the current state of nuclear technology. Who's campaigning for nuclear energy, anyway?

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
A question that follows me around; if radiation is so dangerous and lasts for thousands of years, why in the world does anyone go to such a dangerous place to protest or sightsee? I would appreciate any kind of answer.

In gassho,

Mark
It's not that dangerous now if you don't stay long. You need a dosimeter, and you also need a respirator in the more badly contaminated areas. Reportedly, wildlife in the zone of alienation is thriving in the absence of humans there. The long-term concern, however, is still the plant; most of the radioactive material is still sequestered in the sarcophagus. If it collapses, another large cloud of radioactive dust will be flung into the air.
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:30 AM   #7
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

From the last poster on the page,

http://www.uer.ca/forum_showthread_a...951&currpage=4

"The original website was completely fake. The story was a lie and photos were scanned from coffee table books. The photos were "real" in the sense of not being photoshoped. But most were anachronisms -- they were old and did not depict what was happening at Chernobyl when the website appeared. The science was wrong, and the writing was barely comprehensible, though it had a certain charm.

After the website became the big thing on the web, Elena and her husband took a standard tour (that anyone can get through Kiev travel agencies) where she carried a motorcycle helmet. They did their own pictures (staged a few shots,too) and added them to the website. Sometime in the meantime, Elena also won some English-speaking champions who spiffed up the writing.

So, it's still fake because Elena didn't take most of the pictures on the website (her husband did) and didn't write the text.

And she most certainly did not ride a motorcycle there. "

Last edited by dps : 07-04-2007 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 07-04-2007, 11:48 AM   #8
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

These guys are campaigning for nuclear energy
www.ecolo.org/.
and these guys
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cf...ssay_id=204363

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-04-2007 at 11:50 AM.

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Old 07-05-2007, 06:00 AM   #9
stelios
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

As I said, shame....
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Old 07-07-2007, 08:18 AM   #10
Mark Uttech
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Yes, it all turns to fire. The icebergs melt, the water dissolves into the air. And yet the electronic industry thrives! What does it have to do with aikido? In Japan, in the old days, dojos were neither heated, nor cooled. Students learned to adapt.

In gassho,

Mark
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:41 AM   #11
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
Stelios Papados wrote: View Post
As I said, shame....
Agreed.

Another poster ahead of this asked the question "who's campaigning for nuclear energy anyway?" My response were the links.

I don't support the continuing efforts to manufacture nuclear energy.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-07-2007 at 09:43 AM.

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Old 07-07-2007, 09:50 AM   #12
heathererandolph
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

I think it's a pretty good "collection" and an attractive fantasy. I would believe quite a bit of it as true. I don't think I'd have the guts to take even an escorted tour! It's good to hear from someone who has been there and can describe the desolation as well as the politics that allowed ordinary citizens to be exposed to such danger.

It's startling that people there have become used to using geiger counters and seem to be able to monitor their exposure to radiation to keep it at a "safe" level. I think I'd be very afraid.
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Old 07-07-2007, 04:49 PM   #13
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Concentrating astronomically-lived sources of ionizing radiation into little pellets of nuclear fuel is not something that should be done where an accident can occur that would expose people who don't accept this risk to hazardous amounts of radiation or its sources. There are no lessons to be gleaned from Chernobyl that weren't already known.

Honestly, I didn't think nuclear energy was all that popular these days.

Honestly, though, the radiation in Pripyat isn't that dangerous, though only the most stubborn who ignore the danger and refuse to move still live there. It takes 500 milliSieverts of acute radiation dosage to cause radiation poisoning. 20 milliSieverts in a year is the acceptable chronic dosage limit for British nuclear workers. If you don't stay for long, this sort of dosage is easily avoidable.
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Old 07-09-2007, 04:59 PM   #14
Mark Uttech
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
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. If you don't stay for long, this sort of dosage is easily avoidable.
I find this sort of reasoning totally absurd. I read an article in Turning Wheel ( a publication oif the Buddhist Peace Fellowship) that there is a lake in russia that is so radioactive, that if you went there and stood on its shore for 1/2 hour, you would be dead inside of a week. Radiation doesn't have a shelf life. It literally hangs around for a few thousand years. So the dosage you receive from something simple like a chest xray becomes double by the next chest xray, triple by the next, and so on, and so forth.

In gassho,

Mark
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Old 07-09-2007, 05:52 PM   #15
ChrisMoses
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

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Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
I find this sort of reasoning totally absurd. I read an article in Turning Wheel ( a publication oif the Buddhist Peace Fellowship) that there is a lake in russia that is so radioactive, that if you went there and stood on its shore for 1/2 hour, you would be dead inside of a week. Radiation doesn't have a shelf life. It literally hangs around for a few thousand years. So the dosage you receive from something simple like a chest xray becomes double by the next chest xray, triple by the next, and so on, and so forth.

In gassho,

Mark
I admit to being a bit rusty, but I think a few of your assertions are incorrect. Radioactive material does have a kind of shelf life, namely the half life or radioactive decay. If something is radiating, then it is by definition losing its radioactivity. Admittedly this is generally a very slow process with many of the nasty elements that are used in nuclear weapons and energy, but some are rather short. One example would be the radioactive iodine treatment for hyperthyroid.

Radiation also doesn't 'build up" in the body, if it did, you wouldn't need to have any X-rays after that first one right? That isn't to say that there aren't averse effects that can be caused by repeated exposure to radioactive sources, or that the risks of problems associated with exposure aren't increased with each exposure, but to my knowledge they don't really build up in the body in general.

Lake Karachay in Russia does indeed emit a lethal dose of radiation, but that's because it has a HUGE amount of radioactive material that was dumped in its waters.

Could be just a confusion with your choice of words.

Chris Moses
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Old 07-09-2007, 09:08 PM   #16
Mark Uttech
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Hmmm. I did not to mean to imply that radiation builds up by itself. What I meant was that the radiation in the body stays there. So another dose adds on. etc. Thanks for mentioning the name of the lake, I recognized it right away.

In gassho,

Mark
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Old 07-09-2007, 09:30 PM   #17
HL1978
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
Stelios Papados wrote: View Post
What really makes me furious is that nobody learnt anything at all from the Chernobyl accident. In a world where political cost is the only obstacle to clean energy (solar,wind,geothermal), some sad individuals still campaign about nuclear energy. Shame...
There are a lot more obstacles than politics or solar, wind and geothermal, such as you need areas that are appropriate for each otherwise the various technologies wont scale well (i.e. it isnt economical to run solar panels when the angle of the sun and amount of sunlight per day is not great, where sustained winds above a certain speed do not occur, where geothemic energy doesnt readily exist), the NIMBY factor, the costs both enviromental, time to recoop (particuarly when not infuenced by tax subsidies) for new solar cells, the environmental costs of solar cell construction.

You can talk about biomass (algae, corn, sugar beets etc) as being carbon neutral, but there is still environmental costs (fertilizer utilized to grow corn/sugar beets) and higher prices for foodstuffs (see the recent tortilla price increases in mexico) wich result. Algae on the otherhand is probably a better source (paritucarly the constantly agitated pond systems), but the scale required would be enormous for electrical power generation.

There are plenty of advocates for nuclear out there, though most admit it is a stopgap measure (assuming sustainable fusion occurs at somepoint in the near future and we are reffering to fission when speaking of nuclear), despite breeder reactors and other technologies to extend the use of fuel, and certainly there is a storage problem for waste and the environmental costs of obtaining the fuel plus the national security issues, but as a large scale alternative to hydroelectric (which has its own set of environmental problems) and fossil fuels (no green house gas emissions, less costs per unit of energy for fuel/capital costs compared to fossil fuels, no soot/smog for fission power) it is pretty much the only other viable option out there at this point.

Suffces to say, politics is not the only problem out there for any sort of alternative energy adoption on a wide scale.
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Old 07-09-2007, 09:36 PM   #18
ChrisMoses
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
Hmmm. I did not to mean to imply that radiation builds up by itself. What I meant was that the radiation in the body stays there.
I just don't think that's correct. In order for there to be radiation, there has to be an unstable particle within the body. This can happen through inhalation, ingestion or through a lesion of the skin, but "radiation" doesn't really stay in the body, it's an energy wave that may damage tissue as it passes through (typically by burning in high doses or by DNA mutations at lower levels) but the skin is sufficiently thick to block most smaller radioactive particles. If what you say was true we should avoid the elderly like the plague because they would be virtually lethal from all of the sunlight they had absorbed in their lifetimes. Unless I'm still missing what you're saying. How does the radiation stay there, say from an X-ray?

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Old 07-09-2007, 11:25 PM   #19
David Orange
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
Maxwell Jones wrote: View Post
Who's campaigning for nuclear energy, anyway?
It's all the rage now, as an "alternative" fuel like coal!

In Alabama, they just restarted the Browns Ferry nuclear plant, which has been shut down for a loooong time--over fifteen years, I'm pretty sure. And they just restarted the thing.

Quote:
Maxwell Jones wrote: View Post
The long-term concern, however, is still the plant; most of the radioactive material is still sequestered in the sarcophagus. If it collapses, another large cloud of radioactive dust will be flung into the air.
"The plant" as well as "the plants." The radiation is concentrated in fruits and vegetables, according to the site, anyway.

I just don't think any nuclear plant in this age of terrorists and imbeciles is a good idea. Homer Simpson is Safety Manager for a nuclear plant, you know....

Thanks for all the responses, everyone.

David

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Old 07-10-2007, 03:42 AM   #20
stelios
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Hunter Lonsberry wrote "There are a lot more obstacles than politics or solar, wind and geothermal, such as you need areas that are appropriate for each otherwise the various technologies wont scale well (i.e. it isnt economical to run solar panels when the angle of the sun and amount of sunlight per day is not great, where sustained winds above a certain speed do not occur, where geothemic energy doesnt readily exist), the NIMBY factor, the costs both enviromental, time to recoop (particuarly when not infuenced by tax subsidies) for new solar cells, the environmental costs of solar cell construction."

Areas appropriate for incorporating solar panels, wind turbines? How about the seas? Two thirds of Earth are covered by water and if oiling platforms can withstand waves and storms so will wind tourbines or solar panels. Every denial to clean energy is purely politics/petroleum related and this can be easily proved. Just my humble opinion (shared by almost everybody I ever spoke to...)
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Old 07-10-2007, 08:29 AM   #21
David Orange
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Speaking of Nuclear Accidents, here's a little something to consider. It's on a great site that updates daily, always something new to look at.

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007...oops-list.html

Enjoy. And don't forget to tell your Congressman, "We need more nukes!"

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 07-10-2007, 08:38 AM   #22
HL1978
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
Stelios Papados wrote: View Post

Areas appropriate for incorporating solar panels, wind turbines? How about the seas? Two thirds of Earth are covered by water and if oiling platforms can withstand waves and storms so will wind tourbines or solar panels. Every denial to clean energy is purely politics/petroleum related and this can be easily proved. Just my humble opinion (shared by almost everybody I ever spoke to...)
While you can put windmills of the coasts (and the same with solar panels) you would not want to put them at the same depths as oil platforms because of the costs to do so. You can put them further out to see, but there are signifigant losses for power transmission over great distances of up to 30% plus you would need a lot of transformers (i.e. you wouldnt want to power a city in the middle of america, with electrical power generated 3000 miles away, it is better to generate power locally).

Is it worth the environmental costs to cover a signifigant portion of the earth/water with solar? With no direct sunlight below the panel you can't grow anything, and I have no idea of how it would effect the oceans/currents/agae growth if they were covered in panels.

A better solution is local power generation. If you were to use solar, place it on the sides of buildings as well as the roof.

Interestingly enough methane recovery from landfills is becoming more popular method of power generation and is carbon neutral. Essentially you sink a large number of pipes into the landfill and suck out the methane.
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:20 AM   #23
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
Maxwell Jones wrote: View Post
Concentrating astronomically-lived sources of ionizing radiation into little pellets of nuclear fuel is not something that should be done where an accident can occur that would expose people who don't accept this risk to hazardous amounts of radiation or its sources. There are no lessons to be gleaned from Chernobyl that weren't already known.

Honestly, I didn't think nuclear energy was all that popular these days.

Honestly, though, the radiation in Pripyat isn't that dangerous, though only the most stubborn who ignore the danger and refuse to move still live there. It takes 500 milliSieverts of acute radiation dosage to cause radiation poisoning. 20 milliSieverts in a year is the acceptable chronic dosage limit for British nuclear workers. If you don't stay for long, this sort of dosage is easily avoidable.
Pripyat and numbers aside, I don't know enough on that account to provide any reasonable analysis. But what I can tell you is that my brother and his family live in Finland and the amout of deer that they can eat is limited because the deer are radiated and negative health effects have been noted as a result of their consumption. This is also true of some variety of fish, and other water and food sources.
Nuclear energy and nuclear contamination recognizes no politcal or geographic borders on its own. It just IS once it is produced and it radically will go where no man has gone before, whether we meant it that way or not.

In a large degree, it seems, nuclear power by-products and accidents violate the rights of people to deterrmine their own environmental wellness.

from where I stand

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Old 07-10-2007, 10:32 AM   #24
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
There are a lot more obstacles than politics or solar, wind and geothermal, such as you need areas that are appropriate for each otherwise the various technologies wont scale well (i.e. it isnt economical to run solar panels when the angle of the sun and amount of sunlight per day is not great, where sustained winds above a certain speed do not occur, where geothemic energy doesnt readily exist), the NIMBY factor, the costs both enviromental, time to recoop (particuarly when not infuenced by tax subsidies) for new solar cells, the environmental costs of solar cell construction.

You can talk about biomass (algae, corn, sugar beets etc) as being carbon neutral, but there is still environmental costs (fertilizer utilized to grow corn/sugar beets) and higher prices for foodstuffs (see the recent tortilla price increases in mexico) wich result. Algae on the otherhand is probably a better source (paritucarly the constantly agitated pond systems), but the scale required would be enormous for electrical power generation.

There are plenty of advocates for nuclear out there, though most admit it is a stopgap measure (assuming sustainable fusion occurs at somepoint in the near future and we are reffering to fission when speaking of nuclear), despite breeder reactors and other technologies to extend the use of fuel, and certainly there is a storage problem for waste and the environmental costs of obtaining the fuel plus the national security issues, but as a large scale alternative to hydroelectric (which has its own set of environmental problems) and fossil fuels (no green house gas emissions, less costs per unit of energy for fuel/capital costs compared to fossil fuels, no soot/smog for fission power) it is pretty much the only other viable option out there at this point.

Suffces to say, politics is not the only problem out there for any sort of alternative energy adoption on a wide scale.
Radically changing our lifestyles and living in the principle of Aiko(loving protection) is a viable option with a pretty long meter to measure the change. Many people are not interested in re-evaluating what they consider to be their 'rights'. Including the right to consume beyond fullness and the right to proliferate beyond productivity. Obesity and Cancer also are described using the same langage.
We can make a difference by following the instructons of O'Sensei regarding what a 'real budoka' is: One who protects the Earth, as their family.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:56 AM   #25
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Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Pripyat and numbers aside, I don't know enough on that account to provide any reasonable analysis. But what I can tell you is that my brother and his family live in Finland and the amout of deer that they can eat is limited because the deer are radiated and negative health effects have been noted as a result of their consumption. This is also true of some variety of fish, and other water and food sources.
Nuclear energy and nuclear contamination recognizes no politcal or geographic borders on its own. It just IS once it is produced and it radically will go where no man has gone before, whether we meant it that way or not.

In a large degree, it seems, nuclear power by-products and accidents violate the rights of people to deterrmine their own environmental wellness.

from where I stand
Not to discount the very real dangers of nuclear energy, but currently coal power plants release more radioactive particles into the environment than nuclear power plants. With a nuclear power plant, the dangers for contamination are from accidents and storage of spent fuel. Coal has radioactive particles embedded in it and these particles can be released into the environment as a micro-ash. These particles are then introduced into the food chain. Coal also introduces other nasties like mercury, which gets eaten by fish who then get eaten by people. Like you mention in a later post, for all the poo-pooing that conservation gets, it's actually the only thing that absolutely reduces environmental contaminants. That's not to say that we shouldn't strive for better technologies, but the idea that nuclear energy is the worst kind is a bit outdated IMHO. You have to get power from somewhere, and every method has real and significant drawbacks/dangers.

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