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Old 07-09-2007, 06:38 AM   #126
DonMagee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Perhaps I should clarify -- what I meant was ways to incorporate something that serves in the place of atemi even when no striking is allowed. Like, if katamochi nikkajo works better if you distract them before applying the lock, and traditionally one uses a strike to distract them, maybe there's a substitute for use in a pure grappling contest.

In no way was that a veiled, "Aikido would work if there was atemi!" remark, which would be complete wankerism.
The problem is that bjj has to be 100% usable in its practiced form. A fake or pretend strike is going to have 0 effect because we know you can't strike in grappling competition. If you want to learn strikes in grappling, then use strikes. The whole fake striking thing always irks me. I can plainly see the person is not going to hit me, so why bother defending. I know he wants a response to use against me, so I will not give him one. But if he hits me in the face, he gets a response no matter what.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-09-2007, 07:30 AM   #127
Aiki x
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

If your in a street fight with a BJJ'er try tapping. They may just forget the fight is real and let go.
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:11 AM   #128
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
The problem is that bjj has to be 100% usable in its practiced form. A fake or pretend strike is going to have 0 effect because we know you can't strike in grappling competition. If you want to learn strikes in grappling, then use strikes. The whole fake striking thing always irks me. I can plainly see the person is not going to hit me, so why bother defending. I know he wants a response to use against me, so I will not give him one. But if he hits me in the face, he gets a response no matter what.
Right -- I was thinking maybe some sort of nuisance maneuver like pushing the neck or jaw. But anyway, it was just an idea; I think it was probably not a good one.

It's sort of sad how happy it would make me to be able to pull off aikido waza somewhat reliably in free grappling. There are definitely times when I wish I'd never done aikido, because now I like the art too much to just drop it, as bizarre as that might sound. In the meantime, I guess the best thing to do is keep working at it.

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 07-09-2007 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:40 AM   #129
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Hm, 15 minute time limit has elapsed...but pardon the moment of mild emo. Writing a little too freely.
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Old 07-09-2007, 12:32 PM   #130
DonMagee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Right -- I was thinking maybe some sort of nuisance maneuver like pushing the neck or jaw. But anyway, it was just an idea; I think it was probably not a good one.

It's sort of sad how happy it would make me to be able to pull off aikido waza somewhat reliably in free grappling. There are definitely times when I wish I'd never done aikido, because now I like the art too much to just drop it, as bizarre as that might sound. In the meantime, I guess the best thing to do is keep working at it.
Actually, my club does training pushing on the face, chin, etc. We also crossface with the forearm and do all sorts of 'evil' stuff like that in competitions where it is legal.

One of the first armbar setups I ever learned was from inside the guard. I would fake a collar choke then when he reached to defend I would turn my hips out swing my legs up and push his face as hard as I could without being accused of punching him. They would turn away from the push and allow me to armbar them without the defense that was always stopping me (they would drop their weight on top of me trapping me). Of course now I know at least two dozen better ways to setup an armbar.

I understand how you feel about using aikido in grappling. I try it every day. I am getting to a point where I can use some stuff against white belts with some reliability, but it is still harder to do then just judo and bjj. I break it down to the leading. In judo and bjj you do not need the person to be lead as much as you do in aikido. In most aikido classes your partner is allowing himself to be lead, thus allowing you to look great. But in sparing the person knows anything you are trying to do is probably not in his best interests. So he is going to put the breaks on most anything you can try.

The highest success I've had is with wrist locks. They are as easy to setup as armbars and chokes once you get some practice. It's fun watching the white belts be afraid to reach for you because of fear you will wrist lock them. However once you start playing with guys your level, those techniques are too low percentage to be something you should be using when higher percentage techniques are just as easy to setup and won't leave you so bad off when they fail. I refuse to teach any aikido I happen to get to my bjj friends. I tell them to go take aikido if they really want to learn it. Maybe someday if I open my own club I'll teach it to my students.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-09-2007, 12:59 PM   #131
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

A sankkyo can be a good kimura setup when you're on your back and the other person's in your guard. Of course, the idea is to move from setup to setup until something sticks, but sometimes just working a couple new ones into your game opens up some other options.
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Old 07-09-2007, 01:08 PM   #132
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
A sankkyo can be a good kimura setup when you're on your back and the other person's in your guard. Of course, the idea is to move from setup to setup until something sticks, but sometimes just working a couple new ones into your game opens up some other options.
Hmm, neat idea.
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Old 07-10-2007, 06:44 AM   #133
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
If you look at more open empty-hand fighting, like UFC, the techniques of BJJ are low percentage. Most of them have their roots in the same period of Japanese history.

Now, let's look at the most successful empty-hand techniques: wrestling takedowns, ground and pound, boxing/muay thai, chokes, blocking punches/kicks, and using the guard to minimize the effect of strikes.
All techniques are low percentage in these type of environments (resisting opponents of similar skill and size). How many punches, kicks, takedowns, subsmissions et c. are exchanged or tried withouth success?

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Old 07-10-2007, 09:45 AM   #134
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

'What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker?'
Buy them a Beer and sit down somewhere for a civilsed chat.
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Old 07-10-2007, 09:55 AM   #135
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Graham Old wrote: View Post
'What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker?'
Buy them a Beer and sit down somewhere for a civilsed chat.
If that doesn't work, apply more beer.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 07-10-2007, 09:55 AM   #136
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Graham Old wrote: View Post
'What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker?'
Buy them a Beer and sit down somewhere for a civilsed chat.
But the bjj guy is sneaky, he would drink your beer, act all nice, then when you least expect it, jump on your back and choke you out!!!

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:00 AM   #137
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

It's true, bjjers are almost as sneaky as ninjas with Pilates balls . . .
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:02 AM   #138
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
But the bjj guy is sneaky, he would drink your beer, act all nice, then when you least expect it, jump on your back and choke you out!!!
Si Senor, and perhaps our little aikidoka friend is equally sneaky and has drunken ambush prepared out in parking lot to get even for that one time the guy drank your beer and then choked you out. But your friends were waiting in the shadows....wait... too much information to stay legal. Er, um,...Have to go now. uh, yeah....Have a good time

Ha,Ha,Ha.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:43 AM   #139
DonMagee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
It's true, bjjers are almost as sneaky as ninjas with Pilates balls . . .
It's hard to see a bjj coming too. You have to know the signs. First, you need to keep an eye out for tapout tshirts, tatoos, rashguards....well I guess its easy to spot one...nevermind

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:44 AM   #140
Budd
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I've heard of mystical bjjers that can give you ringworm with their chi . . . *ick*
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:53 PM   #141
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

When I was a lot younger and bjj was just becoming big in blighty I had a drunken 'match' with my friend. My arm bar did not work! So I pulled out the big gun - postbadcurrygutrotexhaustnage and cleared the room. Works every time

Vorsprung durch Aikido!
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Old 07-10-2007, 02:21 PM   #142
Budd
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I've been on the receiving end of a curry-inspired sankaku jime (triangle) and my fast tapping had NOTHING to do with any legs restricting the blood flow to the brain . . .
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:00 AM   #143
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
But the bjj guy is sneaky, he would drink your beer, act all nice, then when you least expect it, jump on your back and choke you out!!!
yes but sneaky as well, the aikidoka is.
And before than the BJJ bloke have come to his wits, the cunning akidoka would already placed something like
what time is it, as the bjj gyt looka at his watch, boom nikkio.

or the sneakier.
Dam it is spooky here? could you gra,, heu hold my hand?

mmmmmmmmmwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaa
mmmmmmmmmwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaa
mmmmmmmmmwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I have not done 7 years of freaking evil school to be call mister.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:47 AM   #144
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

The posts on "Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques" have been moved to this thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12667

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Old 07-11-2007, 12:49 PM   #145
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I've heard that BJJers can move through walls... is that true?
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Old 07-11-2007, 01:06 PM   #146
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Yes, if you throw them hard enough.
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Old 07-11-2007, 05:13 PM   #147
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post

I'd recommend keeping your arms out during the standup portion. I notice wrestlers and the like tend to use "hooks", and grab a lot around the head/neck/shoulders. It's kind of hard doing aikido when some guy's pinning your head down with a clinch. If you make sure that they have to go through your arms to get to your body, at least it increases the chances of something happening at more aikido-ish range.
not sure if that is such a great idea Paul. You'd be susceptible to things like arm drags and maybe even flying armbars...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-11-2007, 05:14 PM   #148
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Jean de Rochefort wrote: View Post
Just ask them what makes BJJ so superior to Aikido. You should have plenty of time to go take a nap and have a sandwich before they even notice that you've grown tired and left.
you still don't get it. No surprise. I doubt you could find anyone here saying bjj is outright superior to aikido. Some of us have claimed the two arts serve a different purpose.

Frankly I didn't expect to see you back on this thread after your previous deceit had been exposed.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-11-2007, 05:17 PM   #149
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Right -- I was thinking maybe some sort of nuisance maneuver like pushing the neck or jaw. But anyway, it was just an idea; I think it was probably not a good one.

It's sort of sad how happy it would make me to be able to pull off aikido waza somewhat reliably in free grappling. There are definitely times when I wish I'd never done aikido, because now I like the art too much to just drop it, as bizarre as that might sound. In the meantime, I guess the best thing to do is keep working at it.
Hey mate, relax. If you like the art - there is no reason to drop it. At the end of the day almost no one is practicing martial arts to go out and kick peoples asses or enter full contact fighting. That being the case the only question to ask is "what do I enjoy doing". If you enjoy Aikido, keep doing aikido. If you want more resistance, do bjj or a live art. If you want to try that approach with aikido - do some experimentation. Personally I really enjoyed training in both BJJ and Aikido at the same time, both for their similarities and their differences.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-11-2007, 05:31 PM   #150
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

^^^^ What Michael said above!

A lot of times it seems as though people set up this bifurcation with Aikido and other martial arts (not you specifically Paul). "It's either Aikido or nothing!!!" or "Aikido or BJJ - I can't do both!" Which is extremely false, as is evidenced by the numerous people just on Aikiweb that do both Aikido and some other art.

Sure it can be frustrating that Aikido does not seem to work that often in a "live" environment, but it's just something you have to deal with.

Keith Lee
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