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Old 05-30-2007, 09:00 PM   #101
DonMagee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I just don't trust the internet ;-)

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-30-2007, 10:33 PM   #102
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
I've said this before ad nauseum on other threads but guess you have not tracked them down.

1. Why is it so important to find an "aiki" solution to a problem Aikido was never designed to solve?
2. How do you define an Aikido solution? Does it need to be kote gaeshi and shiho nage or will it do to take the principals and strategies of Aikido and adapt them to the ground situation? I mean principals like blending, centering, leading, off balancing, focusing the unified power of your movement against their weakest points etc ertc.
3. If you are happy to use aikido strategies on the ground and call that an aikido solution - the good news is there is much that can be done. In fact a lot of work has been done in this area and it goes by the name of BJJ.
I have benefited a lot from your threads thanks Michael, it seems the majority opinion is on complementing Aikido with BJJ, thefore the question now is: would you train in both martial arts right away or concentrate your effort into one until reaching black belt then explore the second?
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:30 AM   #103
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
I've said this before ad nauseum on other threads but guess you have not tracked them down.

1. Why is it so important to find an "aiki" solution to a problem Aikido was never designed to solve?
2. How do you define an Aikido solution? Does it need to be kote gaeshi and shiho nage or will it do to take the principals and strategies of Aikido and adapt them to the ground situation? I mean principals like blending, centering, leading, off balancing, focusing the unified power of your movement against their weakest points etc ertc.
3. If you are happy to use aikido strategies on the ground and call that an aikido solution - the good news is there is much that can be done. In fact a lot of work has been done in this area and it goes by the name of BJJ.

I have benefited a lot from your threads thanks Michael, it seems the majority opinion is on complementing Aikido with BJJ, thefore the question now is: would you train in both martial arts right away or concentrate your effort into one until reaching black belt then explore the second?
Not an easy question to answer. It depends on many things and becomes personal in nature..

I train in both right now. I see the benefits for myself and I can say I would recommend it.

However,

It really depends on you and many things, and is something each individual needs to explore separately with the guidance I think of good mentors and sensei.

On one hand (extreme), if you goal was to be a good grappler, or to compete in BJJ aikido would be a waste of time.

One the other end, if you goal was to realize and reach a deeper understanding of O'sensei's message, then BJJ would be a waste of time.

In between there is a great deal of room for exploration and interpretation. The two arts are complementary I think, enough so that it is worth spending some time exploring each of them.

Right now I am recommending that one of my BJJ students spend some time in Tai Chi, Aikido, or some other art because he simply has issues with posture, breathing, and movement that I cannot seem to correct within the context of BJJ. Slower, more deliberate training I think may be helpful to him at this point.

I don't think you need to wait to get your blackbelt in either art. Frankly if you did that, it would take you about 10 or 15 years to derive the benefits of the synthesis of the methodologies.

I would though in most cases say that you probably should ground yourself a little in one or the other for a while (year or so), starting two arts cold turkey just getting comfortable and going through the learning curve would be a challenge.

Each persons path is different, but no harm in trying things out for yourself, there is no one right way, formula or mix.

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Old 05-31-2007, 07:42 AM   #104
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

What technique would I use? Simple, whatever works (though there's enough similarities between mae ukemi and a sprawl and certain types of ude garami to a whizzer, that I think that's a good place to start - assuming that one's training the necessary body mechanics to pull such things off).

In other words, the answers are simple. Being able to make use of the answers with any kind of authority -- not so simple.

Techniques are like the exterior components of a house, they can be showy and look great, but if the foundation and structure of the house are weak, they won't survive any real storm.

Last edited by Budd : 05-31-2007 at 07:43 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 05-31-2007, 08:01 AM   #105
philippe willaume
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
lol
That right thar is why I don't do bjj.
Before taking the mickey on other style 69 remember that one "enters deeply from the rear" whilst doing irimi nage.

Philippe

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-31-2007, 03:37 PM   #106
Aristeia
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
I have benefited a lot from your threads thanks Michael, it seems the majority opinion is on complementing Aikido with BJJ, thefore the question now is: would you train in both martial arts right away or concentrate your effort into one until reaching black belt then explore the second?
I endorse Kevnin's response. Black belt is probably not necessary (particularly for BJJ where gradings are a little differen), but a reasonable grounding is a good idea. The trick I think is to time the looking of a second art right so that
1. you aren't soo invested in your current art that you are only looking to discredit or discount the second art.
2. You are invested enough in the current art that you desire to keep training in it rather than dropping it immediately for the cool new toy.

After that you may find like Kevin that you continue to train both or you may find after a few years you wish to concentrate more on one (which I have done).

My sequence was pretty much ideal for me (and maybe only for me). i.e. I was advanced enough in Aikido to not want to let the Aikido go and keep training. I was also advanced enough to see quite quickly how similar the underlying principals are. I then did both for a number of years before deciding to concentrate on BJJ as that was where I have the biggest skill gains to make. I will do this for another few years. Once I get to a higher level in BJJ and find myself with more time on my hands due to lessened family commitments I fully expect to dive back into Aikido, bringing with me the lessons I learned from BJJ.

But that's just me.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-31-2007, 03:49 PM   #107
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

simply by my situation, my experiences have pretty much followed Michael's. That is, aikido for a number of years, and the last few concentrating on BJJ. I am now going through somewhat of a synthesis phase. Heading back to Virginia in the next 6 weeks, I will once again pick up my studies of aikido, and also pursue BJJ at the same time.

What got me into BJJ was getting my ass handed to me by a skilled BJJer under NHB rules. It was enough to show me that I had alot to still learn if I wanted to be able to use my skills in a more complete/fuller spectrum than my background allowed.

I feel much more confident in my ability to fight within a close range with much going on than before, which allows me to control distance more proficiently than before.

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Old 05-31-2007, 04:29 PM   #108
Aristeia
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Here's another point I like to make from time to time. Something like BJJ can make your aikido better. We often talk in Aikido about entering deeply without fear etc etc. What stops people doing that in real life is a nagging concern that it could go wrong which sometimes makes people hold back.

But once you realise that if it does go wrong you will end up in a clinch or on the ground, and that you have an ever better plan there than you do on your feet....it enables your standup. Whether that's Aikido or striking. When you have no fear of the clinch or the ground, everything is suddenly done with so much more commitment.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-31-2007, 09:23 PM   #109
DonMagee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I'm a big fan of playing. I like to go out and take a few hours of boxing, or aikido, maybe some mauy thai, whatever. I usually take a day or two a month and dedicate it to doing something new to see how other people look at stuff. I always keep an open mind and try it out, but I also voice my concerns and get their feedback. I feel it is important to have a core focus though, mine is actually two arts that are basically the same, bjj and judo.

More importantly to me I feel it is important to do some MMA sparing. It shows you the flaws in every system. Normal bjj training doesn't prepare you to deal with knees from the side mount, or punches from the mount. However a few quick mma sparing sessions and you learn to quickly how to use bjj to deal with it.

I think the same holds true for aikido, it just takes a lot longer to work out. Very slowly I find myself using wrist locks, ikkyo like arm drags, etc with building success. At least 2 times a month I go spend time with my old aikido club and train with them and look for new ideas to play with. But no matter what I keep my focus of at least 3 times a week in bjj/judo.

So keep a focus, make sure you train in that 3 times a week, then if you have the spare time, go exploring. And get some MMA sparing.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:59 PM   #110
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Good points Michael, I wanted to express the same thing you did about what has really helped me in aikido is understanding the clinch and ground. I don't feel like I need to be as hard or nervous on the "inside" anymore....especially during things like irimi nage,which I (as many), will try and "force" out of shear desperation to make it work.

Once you can learn to relax and control the clinch...it seems to make things in an aikido context slow down that much more. Ironically I the space and distance we practice in aikido now seems so much more spacious and like such a gift now.

I think this is one way, as you point out, that BJJ helps with your aikido.

Don,

I agree with you to concerning the MMA context. We will stop doing GI and BJJ when I get in the mood and work on NO GI, and striking every now and then. It does change things dramatically, point out the flaws, or better put...the different context in which you must deal with things when striking and kicking come into play.

I personally like to train in things like Aikido and BJJ, spending most of my time in principal oriented training. Then, every now and then, add situational exercises such as weapons, no gi, kicks, punches...no rules etc to the equation to make sure we are all tracking with what happens when we have other constraints, opportunities and limitations that impact the situation.

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Old 06-01-2007, 04:26 AM   #111
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Excellent food for thought gentlemen.

Personally my defence against BJJ, Boxers, Street thugs and little old ladies with shopping bags is the same.

Respect. Treat everyone as you would wish to be treated yourself. Be aware and non confrontational.

If you have to hit - hit first and hit hard.

So far so good with this theory.

Keep up the posts - they help us all take an alternative view.

Regards

D
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Old 06-01-2007, 08:23 AM   #112
DonMagee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
Excellent food for thought gentlemen.

Personally my defence against BJJ, Boxers, Street thugs and little old ladies with shopping bags is the same.

Respect. Treat everyone as you would wish to be treated yourself. Be aware and non confrontational.

If you have to hit - hit first and hit hard.

So far so good with this theory.

Keep up the posts - they help us all take an alternative view.

Regards

D
This is fine and a good idea, but did you need aikido for this?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-01-2007, 08:38 AM   #113
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
This is fine and a good idea, but did you need aikido for this?
Possibly Don.

I'm a very different person now than I was 20 or 30 years ago.

I feel I've grown a lot. I attribute much of the change to Aikido.

Maybe it would have happened anyway of course.

Anyway - this is how I deal with people now and it works for me.

If someone is expecting an answer of technique X to deal with BJJ then it a bit of a daft question. If it was what principle then my answer would be irimi / atemi.

My bottom line would be fight like a dog. I'm not looking for a fight but if someone wants to beat me then they will have to do just that.

Regards

D
ps If any BJJers see this as a challenge then we are on but you have to be as old and knackered as I am.

pps. I think I'm the same age as Randy Couture! so best leave MMAers out.
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Old 06-01-2007, 09:42 AM   #114
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
I would rather work so hard on my Aikido to the extent where I am mentally comfortable with its application against any one including BJJ'ers and if I am ever taken down then there is a problem with my dedication and understanding and I need to work on it even harder.
I really admire this approach Ahmed. I think what you have said above is critical to developing a serious martial art/science out of ones Aikido training. Done correctly one gets results many Aikidoka may never experience in the area of the art's "jutsu" aspects. It doesn't have to take a lifetime to learn either. Go for it.

Like I said before however if one doesn't have this sort of dedication towards understanding the practical depths of Aikido then you can't go wrong in studying BJJ or a similar method in learning how to deal with it. It comes down to the individual once again imho. However there is no "technique" one can apply to neutralize BJJ or any other method for that matter. It's all principles and how well you understand and apply them imho.

Gambatte.
LC

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Old 06-01-2007, 02:06 PM   #115
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Do you need aikido for this?

For many, the answer would be "no". There are many people in the world that figure things out quite well that have no afinity for aikido, nor do they need it to reach the same point in understanding and application of the principles.

Others though, as is pointed out, possibly do need it. Martial arts in general, started me on a path that altered my life very drastically, aikido certainly fit in there somewhere. It was my original art of karate and my sensei, sempai etc, that had the biggest impact on my life.

Funny thing is this, even though it had the biggest impact, I no longer find it relevant to practice today! Why?

I have matured, moved on, and have found newer perspective that have made it obsolete the way I did it back then. It would seem silly for me to do the kata etc that I used to do today.

However, the seed that it planted, and where it took me was what mattered the most.

Budo and martial arts sometimes work in some very subtle and strange ways that is not recognized externally as being aikido, bjj, or what not!

Sometimes walking way, or being respectful and humble arose out of that small seed.

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Old 06-01-2007, 05:12 PM   #116
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

exactly. Even if I never step on an Aikido mat again it is a fundamental part of my martial make up. It informs and enhances the way I do my BJJ. And if I decided to drop martial art altogether and go become a saxophone player, i'm sure that both aikido and bjj would have an impact on that as well....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-01-2007, 08:23 PM   #117
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

NO matter what you might think, you can't choke out a saxophone. It's metal and pointy.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-01-2007, 09:10 PM   #118
Aristeia
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Fooks by keybar 2.12 rd 1

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-23-2007, 05:53 AM   #119
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Also it should be noted that Kimura was not a "Japanese Jujitsu" guy but a judoka in the sense that he trained under kodokan and never did the traditional ryu's.
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:38 AM   #120
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Everyone is pushing Aikido....I say take your man and put him through the mill...man feels hard? Super? Does he contribute?......easy done.... you need truth in training....or training is nothing...test me please I need that

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 07-07-2007, 05:29 PM   #121
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I don't really know what I'm talking about here -- very limited BJJ experience, though I'm working on that -- but I thought I'd chip in a few specific ideas. (Please note this disclaimer: grain of salt.)

It's sometimes possible to apply a nikkajo or kotegaeshi to a shoulder grab, if you're wearing a gi. Experienced people seem to know how to avoid this. Also note: you need to do something once you bring them down with that first lock.

I'd recommend keeping your arms out during the standup portion. I notice wrestlers and the like tend to use "hooks", and grab a lot around the head/neck/shoulders. It's kind of hard doing aikido when some guy's pinning your head down with a clinch. If you make sure that they have to go through your arms to get to your body, at least it increases the chances of something happening at more aikido-ish range.

I'm currently thinking that sokumen iriminage might be a doable technique from a katamochi here. Haven't yet tried it; will maybe give it a shot tomorrow.

One issue that occurs to me is the lack of atemi in grappling. I'm wondering if maybe a feint up towards the underside of the jaw or something might function similarly -- something that'll make them flinch or at least divert their attention. (Of course, the addition of real striking might make aikido even more challenging to apply.)
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Old 07-08-2007, 01:46 PM   #122
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
One issue that occurs to me is the lack of atemi in grappling. I'm wondering if maybe a feint up towards the underside of the jaw or something might function similarly -- something that'll make them flinch or at least divert their attention.
Atemi might or might not make any difference. MMA events, like the UFC or Pride FC can be consulted for examples of both. Granted it's not atemi delivered by pure aikidoists, but I think the general point is accurate nevertheless.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 07-08-2007, 02:38 PM   #123
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

you will find very few BJJers out there that don't have experience of at least some atemi. (at least as good as any aikidoka).

i always tell the guys that come in and want to hit...that's fine with me....but remember i get to hit back too!

most will opt out and learn grappling skills to incorporate into their game.

gotta remember that grapplers will play by the same rules you do.

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Old 07-08-2007, 05:37 PM   #124
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Perhaps I should clarify -- what I meant was ways to incorporate something that serves in the place of atemi even when no striking is allowed. Like, if katamochi nikkajo works better if you distract them before applying the lock, and traditionally one uses a strike to distract them, maybe there's a substitute for use in a pure grappling contest.

In no way was that a veiled, "Aikido would work if there was atemi!" remark, which would be complete wankerism.
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Old 07-08-2007, 10:47 PM   #125
Adam Alexander
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Just ask them what makes BJJ so superior to Aikido. You should have plenty of time to go take a nap and have a sandwich before they even notice that you've grown tired and left.
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