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Old 07-04-2007, 12:11 PM   #51
Basia Halliop
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Kind of an aside, maybe irrelevent, but as a great lover of newtonian physics I always find it sad when people dismiss because it's not cool enough or something .

Classical physics is really gorgeous and brilliant and amazing! It deserves more respect and awe than it gets!

[/nerd rant]
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:21 PM   #52
Aristeia
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

yeah people like to go to quantum physics a lot at the moment. I think it's because quantum is kind of weird so people get the idea they can use it to justify all sorts of craziness.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-04-2007, 02:03 PM   #53
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Let me say this for you slowly. Derren Brown states *outright* that nothing he does is due to mystical or unusal powers. It's all trickery - magicians tricks, NLP tools, suggestion and subliminal messaging. He will state upfront he uses techniques that so called "psychics" use to *fool* the public.
....
I'd bet O Sensei and other "legit" ki blasters had these kind of skills (the Derren Brown and other mentalists skills i mean) and put them to use in the martial arts field.

What i'd like to know, if it is the case, if O Sensei was a "natural", if he was self trained or if got this skills from a different source: Daito-Ryu, Omoto Kyo, Shingon....

And, of course, attributing these amazing skills to ki can be a) a cultural thing and lack of appropiate words in the original lenguage to define what we call "mentalism" or b) a way to deceive and hide this knowledge to general public/students and reserve it to "closed doors", "inner circle", top guys, heirs of the ryu and the like.
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Old 07-04-2007, 02:11 PM   #54
kironin
 
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
vs. a haughty grappler challenger (with NO study of ki...the poor fool!)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_1ykNZ7rAcw
Demonstrates exactly why it's not a good idea to jump to supernatural or magical explanations for something you see demonstrated or stories you read or hear about.

Rational thinking is something that has to be learned and even trained scientists can end up fooling themselves. Historical analysis pretty quickly reveals that rational thinking is the exception rather than the rule.

We all have these hideously complex noodles in our head that are all the time processing sensory information and converting it in to our conception of reality. We do it so unconsciously that we forget that our perception of reality is not reality but only an approximation colored by emotional and mental internal states. Something we see, feel, hear, that seems miraculous always needs a sober check if one doesn't wish to speedingly go down the road of self-delusion. If you wish to be convinced of something it's not too hard to convince you. Con men, scam artists, hustlers, political leaders have known this for millenia.
Sometimes we call this wishful thinking. It's so powerful that it's not unknown for leaders, teachers and scammers to fool themselves as well. They begin to believe the wish themselves.

I wish I could always wave my hand or yell and someone wishing to do me harm would simply fall down. Wouldn't that be nice. Wouldn't I feel in control. Wouldn't I feel safe. Very seductive.

There is a wonderful little book by Alan Cromer, "Uncommon Sense: The Heretical Nature of Science" that should be the starting grade school textbook for a general course on the introduction to science for all students.

No touch throws or other interesting Ki related phenomena in Aikido and other esoteric stuff in martial arts are only useful if you are willing to understand what is NOT happening. Too often the trouble starts when someone indulges in wishful thinking and takes something out of a very specific context.


Last edited by kironin : 07-04-2007 at 02:19 PM.

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Old 07-04-2007, 10:41 PM   #55
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

This thread and it's poster has turned into a joke...I really can't bring myself to write anything else.

Quote:
Classical physics is really gorgeous and brilliant and amazing! It deserves more respect and awe than it gets!
Hehe...that definitely sounds like a Basia-Style quote.
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Old 07-05-2007, 02:32 AM   #56
Dazzler
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Ok, I'll bite what evidence did Einstein provide for magical ki powers?
albert said that ki = MC squared.

Bloody deaf aid playing up again....
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Old 07-05-2007, 03:29 AM   #57
CarlRylander
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

I'll believe that Derren Brown disclaimer if someone actually posts a vidclip showing his confession. And if it is a trick, why doesn't he show how it is done, then it would really blow all the others out of the water?

All I can say is, there are a lot of people who believe in this. There is evidence. On wikipedia, it states that some poltergeist evidence that cannot be explained.

I'm not saying that everyone can do this. It wouldn't be a very good starting point. It's something that might come after years of training, and then it might happen only rarely. You would be far better off relying on your reflexes and your training.

As I said, that John Stevens book talks a lot about it.

Becoming a joke? Try to isolate me all you want. It won't work.
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Old 07-05-2007, 03:38 AM   #58
CarlRylander
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

To add, it all might have a very twentieth century explanation. I'm open to that. Perhaps, when that bloke threw a settee without touching it, it just looked like he wasn't touching it. It may have been the positioning of his hands and application of strength.

In 'The Art of Peace', it says that O was once at a demo and one of the press photographers said 'This is all fake'. O shouted at them and all their flash bulbs went off at once. Perhaps it was some form of hypnotic suggestion that made them all press their buttons at once, if indeed they did cue the flashes.

Perhaps applying a 'Chris Crudelli force field' is some kind of hypnotic suggestion, too.

I think that O said that you have to use all the resources that are available to hand.
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:11 AM   #59
Aristeia
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Wikipedia is not the fool proof reference you seem to think it is. That said do a modecum of research on Derren Brown and you'll see - it's not like it's a secret.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:25 AM   #60
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Wikipedia is not the fool proof reference you seem to think it is. That said do a modecum of research on Derren Brown and you'll see - it's not like it's a secret.
The wikipedia article on aikido is not too shabby - pity Carl hasn't read it.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:00 AM   #61
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Here are some excerpts from the Wikipedia article on Derren Brown:
"Derren Victor Brown (born February 27, 1971) is an English psychological illusionist and skeptic of paranormal phenomena"
"...Derren Brown states at the beginning of his Trick of the Mind programmes that he achieves his results using a combination of "magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship"."

There's the confession right there.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:14 AM   #62
Dewey
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

After having watched this thread for a few days, I finally have to give my observations:
First, I think this thread has veered off course. Anybody with an account can post their opinions on Youtube. Everybody had a right to their opinions. However, some opinions are worth more than others. Anytime I go to Youtube, I never waste my time reading user opinions. Neither should you.
Second, it seems to me that this thread discussion finally comes down to that age-old discussion that has occupied Aikodo since the beginning: "what exactly is ki and how does it work?"

As we know, there are many "ki philosophers" both within Aikido and without. We can immediately think of the "heavyweights" in this debate: K. Tohei through various published works (both in his Aikikai and ex-Aikikai days); as well as the 2nd Doshu, who eloquently put forth his explanation in "The Spirit of Aikido." Not to mention various other uchideshi of O'Sensei, who perhaps never published anything, but have had interviews transcribed (many stored on Aikido Journal's website). Then lastly, you have the opinions of tens of thousands of Aikidoka around the world. The conclusion: they all have different opinions...some dramatically so. There doesn't really appear to be any real concensus (not unless somebody didn't give me the memo ).

However, my personal opinion is that ki is not "the Force" nor any other sort of paranormal phenonema, nor will ki give me supernatural powers. Ki, as Tohei said back in his Aikikai days, is the coordination of the mind & body...and Aikido is the coordination of the mind & body for self-defense.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:27 AM   #63
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
There is evidence. On wikipedia, it states that some poltergeist evidence that cannot be explained.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha...

Anyway, I'll briefly reply to what you posted as "evidence" earlier.

I think that what the first (?) guy interviewed on the "Kick Ass Moves" program said applies well to the entire show. These are "vagabond tricks" meant to "make a little money" and put on a display. To be sure, not just any random idiot can do them -- there is definitely skill involved, as with any "magic show". But there's nothing in most of them that demands a supernatural explanation.

The show was not exactly scientific in its methods -- its purpose is to entertain, and it was entertaining to watch -- but there were a few things that, to the extent to which they were investigated on-camera, would at face value suggest something supernatural. Like the kiai guy. At face value. Send a random person up to slug said kiai master, though, and I suspect that the planets may suddenly fail to align in a truly unfortunate and bizarre occurrence which leaves him briefly for the first time in his life without his mystical powers (insert more excuses here).

As for his "forcefield" -- oh, come on. That should not be difficult for you to explain. If he's proposing that he's really projecting mystical energy that can control matter, he should go claim his million dollars.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:34 AM   #64
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
I would say that I thought all this was common knowledge. I mean, the bit about fantasic things in martial arts. I thought everybody knew about them, especially martial arts people.
The fact that there are martial arts people who don't believe in even the least fantastic astounds me. I thought you all did.
Carl, it may be time to re-evaluate your opinion. Based on the experiences you've had you came to a conclusion. You're now comparing your conclusion (based on opinion) with the thoughts of people with experience and finding a substantial difference.
Logic dictates that you need to re-examine the evidence, maybe experience if for yourself rather than be frustrated that your theory isn't standing up to the rigour of testing.

I'm not saying you're theory is wrong, just that we shouldn't be afraid to have a thoughts and beliefs challenged. They aren't immutable facts. Get in a dojo and find more evidence for yourself.

Best wishes.

Jon

Ai-Ki cannot be exhausted
By words written or spoken.
Without dabbling in idle talk,
Understand through practice.
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:04 AM   #65
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Ok, I'll bite what evidence did Einstein provide for magical ki powers?
ok, I'll answer,Insight into Ma-ai. but this is what I came here to say:

I'm here to share the insights and training that I have gotten standing at the side of some of the most amazing, enigmatic and beautiful people this planet has to offer. The privelidge of walking with samurai and other warriors for 'peace' is the greatest gift I have ever gotten. The opportunity to feel and experience the energy and time/space that I have polished my life with is only something others imagine. I've gotten to walk it. I've gotten to bite into the bread of the Japanese Samurai and have fed myself on it's merits since I was a very young woman. I have been treated with brutality, love. indifference, fierceness, racism, sexism, and total admiration equally. I have been tossed so rightly without ever feeling it, By Kato Sensei in this particular instance, that I had to open my eyes to the phenomena that created the moment. A perhaps unrepeatable moment that I will treasure with Kato Sensei and O'Sensei for making me become more awake. I can't fight the inner fight of others nor argue away their demons, I can only commit and re-commit my life to a path that has proven to be true and worthy. There is something amazing at work when an orphan like me can become a woman warrior who walks among the tried and true warriors of the past.
I hope everyone who is reading this thread will have the great benefit of the teachers and experiences that I have been so blessed to have. I hope that there will be a moment where you forget everything you ever knew and can begin again with the eyes of a child, like the eyes of my teachers and now my eyes, too. I could never be driven to criticize or become embittered in the wake of such a gift. And I could never be driven or convinced that my teachers are false, when they are true. If you train well, no matter what you believe, this respect for life will happen.
Whatever you call it.

BTW: so as to not break any hearts, I also love Newtonian Physics. I just happen to think that it is part of a whole body of science and not the whole, itself.

I hope everyones training goes as well and honestly as mine has.
Sincerely,
jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-05-2007 at 09:17 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-05-2007, 01:04 PM   #66
Aristeia
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

ahhhh.....so where does Einstein come into that?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:32 PM   #67
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

He doesn't and he never did.

Really hate people trying to add credence to arguments by assigning false quotes (in fun or otherwise).

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:03 PM   #68
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

couldn't resist...

Quote:
"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
- A. Einstein

Copyright: Kevin Harris 1995 (may be freely distributed with this acknowledgement)

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Old 07-05-2007, 09:18 PM   #69
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Interesting that a quote by Einstein is copyrighted by someone else.

Very pretty - but is it Ki.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:33 PM   #70
kironin
 
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

I found a different source for the quote that didn't insist on that weird acknowledgment (translator?), but I got caught by Jun's 15 min edit rule.

hell no, not about Ki
but actually much much more interesting than that issue I think.
Reminds me more of how Tohei or Ueshiba talk when they talk about Ki. They talk in terms of philosophy when they talk about Ki. It's clear that they are not thinking about magic or other such sloppy delusional thinking but in how to connect with all things, etc. etc. ....

Quote:
"A human being is part of the whole called by us universe , a part limited in time and space.
We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest.
A kind of optical delusion of consciousness.
This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us.
Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty...
We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive." - A. Einstein

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Old 07-06-2007, 03:52 AM   #71
CarlRylander
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

This thread started with me alerting everyone about a video on Youtube and some of the comments that were posted, saying that Usheiba was a fake and a charlatan and probably senile.

No-one here has said that, thankfully.

I maintain that there are somethings not explainable by twentieth or twenty first century science. That does not mean that they will never be unexplainable.

If you want another 'wacky' example from my treasure trove of 'wackiness'; there have been experiments done in which show that dogs, when video'd, can sense when their owners are do to return home. Two cameras were set up. One on the dog at home, one on the owner at work. The owner, at a random time, decided to go home and set off. The video on the dog showed it becoming excited and looking as if it was ready to greet its owner. This was repeated for different owners and different dogs and at different times. The report was in Scientific American and on the news. Perhaps we will see a dog millionaire, thanks to James Randi. Or perhaps dogs are less materialistic than us.

I stand by what John Stevens has reported, though he did seem to imply it it was fantastic.
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Old 07-06-2007, 05:14 AM   #72
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

got a specific cite for that study?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-06-2007, 06:01 AM   #73
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Hello all.

Carl
Ki/chi is just a way ancient Chinese/ Japanese had to explain the world around them.
Exactly as we do with Newtonian and Einsteinian physics.
(and eventually the theory that will link them together)

Amazingly enough, phenomenon that can be described using both physics and ki can be done by anybody (provided a meaningful explication to them). Amazingly enough as well that phenomenon can be reproduced on sceptics at will and we can explain failure.
And that is the point. KI used in that way stands to extensive critical experimentation.
So we can propose that ki=combination of mind and spirit is just another way of saying ki=Newtonians physics and bio-mechanics.

Those using a mystical power only tend not to be repeatable on sceptics. I have yet to be repelled by an invisible barrier, knocked of by a light touch on the arm followed by one on the neck. I have yet to see that being demonstrated with a success rate over 75% on a panels of sceptic subjects. Neither does it seems to be possible to consistently replicate it, Nor is there any reasonable explanation to failure
And that is where you argumentation falls short.
It has nothing to do with being explainable by science or not, for example we can not really explain why a blow to the liver or the cardio thoracic area can disable a person, but it can be reproduce consistently on a large panel and in different circumstance.

I can cut cabbage with a large blunt wooden spoon, whilst cutting them from a galloping /cantering horse.
It does not mean that a large wooden spoon is a fantastic cutting weapon.

As far as animals are concerned, my mare was always at the gate to greet me when I was going to see her everyday, even if I change cars
Either it is an amazing six sense or like other horses, she is gregarious and can recognise different individual in the pack, has a earning and a long range sight that put us human to shame.

phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 07-06-2007, 06:19 AM   #74
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Hello all.

Carl
Ki/chi is just a way ancient Chinese/ Japanese had to explain the world around them.
Exactly as we do with Newtonian and Einsteinian physics.
(and eventually the theory that will link them together)

Amazingly enough, phenomenon that can be described using both physics and ki can be done by anybody (provided a meaningful explication to them). Amazingly enough as well that phenomenon can be reproduced on sceptics at will and we can explain failure.
And that is the point. KI used in that way stands to extensive critical experimentation.
So we can propose that ki=combination of mind and spirit is just another way of saying ki=Newtonians physics and bio-mechanics.

Those using a mystical power only tend not to be repeatable on sceptics subjects. I have yet to be repelled by an invisible barrier, knocked of by a light touch on the arm followed by one on the neck. I have yet to see that being demonstrated with a success rate over 75% on a panels of sceptic subjects. Neither does it seems to be possible to consistently replicate it, Nor is there any reasonable explanation to failure

It has nothing to do with being explainable by science or not, for example we can not really explain why a blow to the liver or the cardio thoracic area can disable a person, but it can be reproduce consistently on a large panel and in different circumstance.

to take a stupid example
you can cut cabbage just by presenting a large blunt wooden spoon, whilst cutting them from a galloping /cantering horse.
it does not really matter if you call it ki or kinetic energy to describe what happens however which ever way you explain it, you need to be aware that cutting a similar cabbage on foot using the same move will never works.

As far as animals are concerned, my mare was always at the gate to greet me when I was going to see her everyday, even if I change cars
Either it is an amazing six sense or like other horses, she is gregarious and can recognise different individual in the pack, has a earning and a long range sight that put us human to shame.

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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