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Old 07-05-2007, 03:06 PM   #1251
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Mike, the whole thing with you and me started because you came into the conversation on e-budo in your inimitable know-it-all-and-I'm-also-better-than-you attitude and started making comments about me. Otherwise, I would never have addressed you. Your name meant nothing to me then, so why would I even have addressed you?

You are really the only person on these boards that I get pretty harsh with anymore--some because they quit posting, but others because they became more diplomatic and mostly because I prefer give-and-take conversations on the whole. My approach is to address people the way they address me--usually a little nicer and more patiently than they address me--until they prove that they're intent on being donkies. But as many, many people (apparently on many, many message boards) have noted, you just like to start crap with people, so you never run out of snappy responses to your statements. You do seem to take it a lot harder than you think other people should take your statements, too.
See, David. I don't see it like that. Neither do some of the people that have watched your posts for a period of time. But I'm not going to devote posts to discussing your personality because of it. Certainly not whole posts, the way you do. The only reason you're on my radar now is actually because of a quite different "hot button" than discussing internal strength issues. And I've mentioned it before several times (numerous times, actually). When someone publicly posts that they're a teacher, we can play some silly game of "hey, give that guy respect because he's a teacher" or we can just assume that a guy claiming to be a teacher should know certain basics or they're fair game for getting called on it in public. That's the category you fit into. Nothing personal.

Back to the issues.

If you understood the basics, you would, IMO, easily concede that there is no real issue in talking about who refined what aspects of various internal strength components, since the "refinements" take place both between countries and within styles in the same countries. It's just a thing that happens... not something that separates China from Japan. It's a non-issue.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-05-2007, 03:35 PM   #1252
SeiserL
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I guess my point is David is wrong when he says Mike, Rob and I haven't made any attempt at describing things. Yes I tell people they don't get it. But there are ways to tell folks they don't get it, while being civil and respectful. If you want to. It's a difficult position to be in, because we are right. Period.
Osu,

I, for one, don't partcipate in this thread because I don't conceptualize this way and know I don't know.

However, I do read and appreciate the description (not always the dialogue) and get curious about what I don't know and don't get, yet.

IMHO, the finer points are hard enough to get a glimpse of in training and are impossible to describe in words. Yet, the inadequate words get me interested in the new directions.

For even attempting it, my deepest appreciate to all.

Rei, Domo.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 07-05-2007, 03:55 PM   #1253
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
...When someone publicly posts that they're a teacher, we can play some silly game of "hey, give that guy respect because he's a teacher" or we can just assume that a guy claiming to be a teacher should know certain basics or they're fair game for getting called on it in public. That's the category you fit into. Nothing personal.
No probelemo. I don't mind at all being "called on" something, but you invariably do include a personal attack when you do it. And I invariably respond in kind.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If you understood the basics, you would, IMO, easily concede that there is no real issue in talking about who refined what aspects of various internal strength components, since the "refinements" take place both between countries and within styles in the same countries. It's just a thing that happens... not something that separates China from Japan. It's a non-issue.
First, that's your opinion and the forums are for exchanging opinions--not trying to blister others who have different opinions.

Second, it's less cut-and-dried than you'd like to make it. I've said many times that the CMA and JMA are both very similar and very different. I wouldn't try to call you on tai chi (much) and you're not really qualified to comment very much on aikido.

Third, the nature of "discussion" is to explore the fine distinctions between such matters as 'core skill' and 'technique', Chinese and Japanese, etc. I wouldn't mind reading tons of your thoughts on "how" to generate and employ jin. But you "call out" pretty much everyone who comments, including Dan, who seems to know tremendously more about the Japanese side than you.

Regardless of what you think you know or what you think you know about me or what I know, I was uchi deshi to one of Morihei Ueshiba's earliest uchi deshi. I was there over four years, actually lived in the dojo almost two years and got on the mat with people from all over the earth who came to find a tough aikido dojo. Mochizuki Sensei not only liked me, but he told me that I pretty well understood aikido and he told me that he wanted me to always teach his budo. Which, since I taught it in Japan, is only reasonable. If you don't like that, it's too bad.

You love to drop Chen Xiao Wang's name and tell us what he said to and about you. That's nice. Don't criticize me for doing the same with my teacher, and, moreover, for describing what I do in my own way. If you think it shows a lack of understanding, maybe you need to read into it as much as you read into Shioda's comments or Tohei's. Their descriptions are very simple and I've yet to see one that really "says" what you make it out to say. Their descriptions are closer to mine than to yours, which are closer to Chen's than to Shioda's or Tohei's.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 07-05-2007, 04:43 PM   #1254
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
No probelemo. I don't mind at all being "called on" something, but you invariably do include a personal attack when you do it. And I invariably respond in kind.
I disagree. I think your reactions are more because you've got some sort of pride about what you think you are and who you are and you want some sort of acknowledgement of that position. My position is bluntly discussing a key point in martial arts, particularly in Aikido, and you're upset that your version of the rules aren't being followed. So much so, that post after post you continue this "personal issues" crap. Or you use it to cover what you don't know. See if you can discuss actual facts... much like in the discussion of the useless "ura of kiai" that you seem to have quickly dropped (describe it physically, if that isn't the case).
Quote:
First, that's your opinion and the forums are for exchanging opinions--not trying to blister others who have different opinions.

Second, it's less cut-and-dried than you'd like to make it. I've said many times that the CMA and JMA are both very similar and very different. I wouldn't try to call you on tai chi (much) and you're not really qualified to comment very much on aikido.
I'm easily qualified to comment on Aikido, David, despite any comments trying to say that I'm not. And if you feel it's germane, please feel free to drag Taiji into the discussion, since the basic principles are going to be the same. Logically, though, if you don't really understand the basics of Aikido... which a number of us have stated... then you cannot understand the logic of Taiji. So your statement is groundless. Instead of making your arguments on assertions and then complaining that you're being picked on when someone calls you on them, please try to win your arguments with well-founded and demonstrable facts. All of us have stepped up to the pump for public "give it a try" stuff and all you've done is some focused personality attack while pumping up the air in your own tires. Defeat my argument with cold fact, if you can.
Quote:
Third, the nature of "discussion" is to explore the fine distinctions between such matters as 'core skill' and 'technique', Chinese and Japanese, etc. I wouldn't mind reading tons of your thoughts on "how" to generate and employ jin. But you "call out" pretty much everyone who comments, including Dan, who seems to know tremendously more about the Japanese side than you.
"Call out"???? When I ask someone for specifics and they (like you) never give them, that's "call out"? Bullshit. You tried to talk knowledgeably about "reeling silk" and so did Chris.... I asked for facts/logic or I gave facts/logic. Your idea of "call out" is more like "not giving face". I give face not by playing some silly role-game of pretending that someone has a mystical rank in the Masons or Aikido, but by treating them as an equal in the discussions and asking blunt questions. You and a few others think that we should all be playing the Masonic Lodge version of Aikido and anyone who doesn't is "calling you out". What absolute hogwash.
Quote:
Regardless of what you think you know or what you think you know about me or what I know, I was uchi deshi to one of Morihei Ueshiba's earliest uchi deshi. I was there over four years, actually lived in the dojo almost two years and got on the mat with people from all over the earth who came to find a tough aikido dojo. Mochizuki Sensei not only liked me, but he told me that I pretty well understood aikido and he told me that he wanted me to always teach his budo. Which, since I taught it in Japan, is only reasonable. If you don't like that, it's too bad.
And the reason you don't know this stuff is why? What you seem to miss is that any good teacher, whether Ueshiba or Yang Cheng Fu or Chen Fa Ke or whoever, has thousands of students who lean their reputation against the big name...... yet each teacher in reality only has a few really good students. The fact that you keep leaning your own reputation against some sort of nice and diplomatic remark your teacher made... instead of arguing facts... points out the whole problem. Try discussing facts instead of regaling us with Mochizuke Anecdotes from the Heart of Alabama. Please.
Quote:
You love to drop Chen Xiao Wang's name and tell us what he said to and about you. That's nice. Don't criticize me for doing the same with my teacher, and, moreover, for describing what I do in my own way. If you think it shows a lack of understanding, maybe you need to read into it as much as you read into Shioda's comments or Tohei's. Their descriptions are very simple and I've yet to see one that really "says" what you make it out to say. Their descriptions are closer to mine than to yours, which are closer to Chen's than to Shioda's or Tohei's.
Er, subtract out where I've used CXW's name as a counter to a "source" you have claimed. That leaves "love to drop"..... show me a few recent examples of my using Chen Xiao Wang's name as gratuitous, like your own repetitive posts about Mochizuki. You know, you make these silly remarks and then when you're told that you're being petty, you say "aha, I was being attacked!". It gets absurd.

Er,..... by the way ... where are these facts I keep asking you for, post after post?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 07-05-2007 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 07-05-2007, 04:56 PM   #1255
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Quoted for truthiness,
Elwood P. Dowd (James Stewart), Harvey (1950): "Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, 'In this world, Elwood, you must be' - she always called me Elwood - 'In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant.' Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:44 PM   #1256
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Chris Moses wrote:
I rest my case. If anyone else thinks that Mike has proved me wrong here, please clue me in. I don't see it. Unless he'd like to split hairs between "stupid" and "dumb" (they are listed as synonyms however, so that would be a pretty thin case).

[next post]
Exactly why I brought up the definition for "imply". For what I said to have actually implied that Mochizuki was dumb, there could be no other reasonable explanation for the scenario that I presented. I do not feel that anyone could make that argument, there simply was not enough information available.

[next post]
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Well, it seems to me he wasn't attacking your teacher, but you.

David
(grabbing the opening)
No, that's impossible, he doesn't do that sort of thing.
Tell us again, Chris.... what is it you study and who is your teacher that you're so worried about getting besmirched? Let me tell you something... I'm not the one damaging either your style or your teacher. Let me assure everyone of one fact.... if you argue simply the facts, right or wrong, you do well by yourself and whatever you do.

Whenever you argue someone else's personality, you always run the risk of having your own personality examined. OK, you asked for any disagreements with your misreading of a conditional statement.... you got it. At least a public one. Privately, I doubt you'd want to know. But enough of that.

Please do me a favor and answer at least ONE of the questions you've been asked to respond to and which you've ignored in favor of the personality stuff. Unless you have some compelling "koryu secrets" or unnamed teachers or you're safe in quoting vague compliments from Asian teacher you have met, no matter how briefly... how about doing a comment on how something is done or do an explicit and on-topic sequel-question on how something is done?

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:37 PM   #1257
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So, several post dedicated to simple personality attack by David (and this goes back to the beginning on E-Budo with David initiating exactly the same crap) aren't worth mentioning, but "productive ways that Mike S." could do things better are worth an off-topic post and mention of my name again?

Mike Sigman
Mike:

The reference was to "Mike S.--or anyone " (italics and bold added). I was referring to your post (#1226 on this thread) wherein you picked up on a point that Dan had made by saying that it appeared he acknowledges the importance of stretch/extension (to engage the fascia) . . . but then you discussed how he'd changed his position from a year ago. It was at that point that I think we all would have benefited from hearing more exchange about the how-to or technical description of the internal work (say, on the connection between breathing and stretch/extension), rather than discussing possible changes in Dan's Internet position from a year ago. I was attempting to bring the discussion back on-topic (baseline skillset), but apparently didn't succeed.

David Orange didn't have anything to do with the point I was trying to make. I'm sorry if you are feeling under attack from Mr. Orange, but I'm doing my level best to steer clear of personal attacks on this thread. Why? Because you and Dan both have experience, skills and insight that I do not have, and civil dialogue is my best opportunity to perhaps glean a few pearls of training value.

However, I understand Dan's reluctance to engage in detailed written description of practices that have to be shown in person, then trained and vetted and refined over months and years of consistent training to get right. Few get it even training directly with a good teacher and diligent practice on their own. You've made your own considerable efforts to describe the conceptual basis for what you do and how you've been evolving over the years . . . but the real progress for people working with your ideas seems to come more from hands-on time at seminars or visits than from Internet descriptions.

In any event, no post of mine on this thread intended or should have suggested a personal attack on anyone.

cheers,

Tom
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:44 PM   #1258
statisticool
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Re: Baseline skillset

I looked for some of these people on video on youtube demonstrating their skills, all the people in the thread arguing, but couldn't find any of them.

Maybe they could and make their skills more clear to us.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:26 PM   #1259
HL1978
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Re: Baseline skillset

Chris,

Can you explain how silk reeling or pulling is performed within your style?

Im not trying to be confrontational, but as I study JSA as well, and train at the aunkai, I would appreciate your perspective.

I do not practice tai chi, and my silk reeling experience is limited to a single seminar with CXW (where no one explained what we were supposed to be feeling or doing, rather CXW would have us do the motions and he would push on us and correct our shape), where I tried to apply what I learned at the aunkai to the motions shown. I would not characterize myself as understanding silk reeling to any extent.

With regards to japanese sword arts, I will say that what I do apply to iaido now has been influenced by the anukai, but do note, that some exteremely basic IMA concepts were taught by my original instructor (being aware of how the weight of the sword effects your body on cuts, draws etc, being aware of how to shift your bodyweight on cuts etc, how to "push" without the legs in the kata from tatehiza or seiza, opposing tensions within the body on the draw etc). Rob and I discussed this on a couple of occasions.

Last edited by HL1978 : 07-05-2007 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:28 PM   #1260
HL1978
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
I looked for some of these people on video on youtube demonstrating their skills, all the people in the thread arguing, but couldn't find any of them.

Maybe they could and make their skills more clear to us.
I think you found at least one poster, Justin, unless someone else uses statisticool as a user id on youtube.
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Old 07-05-2007, 08:10 PM   #1261
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
No probelemo. I don't mind at all being "called on" something, but you invariably do include a personal attack when you do it. And I invariably respond in kind.

Mike Sigman wrote:
I disagree. I think your reactions are more because you've got some sort of pride about what you think you are and who you are and you want some sort of acknowledgement of that position. My position is bluntly discussing a key point in martial arts, particularly in Aikido, and you're upset that your version of the rules aren't being followed.
Come off it, Mike. I don't have any real "position. I only state where I've been and what I've done for reference. I don't think that makes me a saint. But if the discussion were science and I had graduated from Oxford, I'd mention that. The real problem is that you initiate personal attacks and belittlement, dismissiveness and general disrespect on a personal level because you feel like people won't take you seriously unless you do. I actually find it rather cute. I was just watching The Office, where Dwight leads the junior salesman around on a goose chase in the guise of "training" him for sales. And you take that kind of attitude, as if you're the master salesman and no one else has made a sale. If you didn't act like that, you'd get a lot better responses from everyone.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
...post after post you continue this "personal issues" crap.
Let's seee.....that's you continuing "this 'personal issues' crap," isn't it? Isn't that you, right there? Like I say, your own comments are invisible to you.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Or you use it to cover what you don't know.
Hahahaha!!! See? What is that comment but a personal attack? Look in the mirror, Mike Sigman.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
See if you can discuss actual facts... much like in the discussion of the useless "ura of kiai" that you seem to have quickly dropped (describe it physically, if that isn't the case).
First, that, too, is a personal attack and belittlement. See? You do it and you're not even, apparently, conscious that you do it. Are you even conscious at all?

And saying that I "quickly dropped it"??? What does that mean? Because I don't repeat it in every post, I've suddenly dropped it? I've used that definition of aiki several times on this board, in various threads. How many times do I have to repeat it? It's a direct definition of kiai as stated by someone who was senior to both Shioda and Tohei.

And obviously, you aren't conscious that I did describe "ura of kiai" in physical terms several posts back, replying to Rob. Read the thread.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm easily qualified to comment on Aikido, David, despite any comments trying to say that I'm not. And if you feel it's germane, please feel free to drag Taiji into the discussion, since the basic principles are going to be the same. Logically, though, if you don't really understand the basics of Aikido... which a number of us have stated... then you cannot understand the logic of Taiji. So your statement is groundless. Instead of making your arguments on assertions and then complaining that you're being picked on when someone calls you on them, please try to win your arguments with well-founded and demonstrable facts. All of us have stepped up to the pump for public "give it a try" stuff and all you've done is some focused personality attack while pumping up the air in your own tires. Defeat my argument with cold fact, if you can.
Errr....just what in that diatribe was "an argument"?

I'm as qualified to orate on tai chi as you are on aikido, okay? Which is to say, I know only a little bit about it. I will accept that you know a lot about tai chi, but you really didn't much scratch the surface on aikido. Basically, your claim is that you can use tai chi principles to do "the techniques" of aikido. But I don't agree. And as for "complaining that you're being picked on," you do that more than anyone. You attack everyone, then squeal when someone gives it back to you. If I get valid criticism, I consider it. I get invalid criticism, I shrug it off. I get criticism from you, it's just wind.

You know that song, "You didn't know it. You didn't think it could be done. In the final end, he won the war after losing every battle." So let it blow, man. But better, have a good, realistic look at yourself.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
"Call out"???? When I ask someone for specifics and they (like you) never give them, that's "call out"?
I meant "call them on it." You would call Tohei if you didn't know it was him. If Shioda posted some stuff straight out of his books, under the screen name "Aikighost" or "Lilaikidoman" or something, your replies would invariably begin, "Lilaikidoman, you don't have a clue. You clearly don't understand how aikido works."

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I give face not by playing some silly role-game of pretending that someone has a mystical rank in the Masons or Aikido, but by treating them as an equal in the discussions and asking blunt questions. You and a few others think that we should all be playing the Masonic Lodge version of Aikido and anyone who doesn't is "calling you out". What absolute hogwash.
As I say, I meant "calling them on it," the phrase you used in the post I replied to. But the fact is, you don't treat anyone as an equal in the discussions. You don't show anyone basic respect, so you just don't get much in return.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
....he told me that he wanted me to always teach his budo. Which, since I taught it in Japan, is only reasonable. If you don't like that, it's too bad.

Mike Sigman wrote:
And the reason you don't know this stuff is why?
Why, it's simply because Mike Sigman says I don't know it, never having met me, never having visited the old dojo in Japan, never having gotten his own black belt in aikido and needing to belittle me to raise his own esteeem. Hey, belittle on, big man. It will make you feel much bigger.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
What you seem to miss is that any good teacher, whether Ueshiba or Yang Cheng Fu or Chen Fa Ke or whoever, has thousands of students who lean their reputation against the big name...... yet each teacher in reality only has a few really good students.
Yes. And Ueshiba was one of Takeda's top students. And Mochizuki was one of Ueshiba's top students. And I knew and trained extensively with all of Mochizuki's top students. I never said I was one of his top students. . . but whose top student were you?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The fact that you keep leaning your own reputation against some sort of nice and diplomatic remark your teacher made... instead of arguing facts...
It wasn't a diplomatic remark to me when he told me he wanted me to always teach his budo. It was a request he made to me. He called me down to teach for him at his dojo and he wanted me to continue teaching for him through my life. So make of that what you will, picking your nose while reading it.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Quote: David Orange wrote:
You love to drop Chen Xiao Wang's name and tell us what he said to and about you. That's nice. Don't criticize me for doing the same with my teacher, and, moreover, for describing what I do in my own way. If you think it shows a lack of understanding, maybe you need to read into it as much as you read into Shioda's comments or Tohei's. Their descriptions are very simple and I've yet to see one that really "says" what you make it out to say. Their descriptions are closer to mine than to yours, which are closer to Chen's than to Shioda's or Tohei's.

Mike Sigman wrote:
Er, subtract out where I've used CXW's name as a counter to a "source" you have claimed.
Right. You've claimed CXW told you you were the only Westerner who knew how to move for tai chi....you claimed Liang Shou Yu as "your teacher," and so on. And I don't mind your doing it. Just don't criticize me for doing what you, yourself, do.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Er,..... by the way ... where are these facts I keep asking you for, post after post?
Well, I don't know. What facts do you keep asking for?

I did say that JMA doesn't use silk reeling. You said it does. Then you said Aikido uses silk pulling. Then you said silk pulling is basically the same as silk reeling. Then you admitted that silk pulling is a less sophisticated and refined level of ki work.....

You mean facts like that?

The main fact is that you will say anything to prove yourself right and a lot of the time you're just hoping somene hasn't read your earlier remarks on the subject.

But to be fair, give me a list of what facts you want and I'll see what I can do.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 07-05-2007, 08:20 PM   #1262
ChrisMoses
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Chris,

Can you explain how silk reeling or pulling is performed within your style?

Im not trying to be confrontational, but as I study JSA as well, and train at the aunkai, I would appreciate your perspective.
Unfortunately, the kata in question are from our uchi no kata series and are not taught to outsiders (that includes our own students until they have reached shodan when they are considered members of the actual ryuha). I would clarify too that we don't refer to the movements as silk reeling or pulling and they are not taught as such. My offhand comment was merely to demonstrate a similarity, a complimentary relationship if you will, between the internal dynamics I have been studying *but do not claim to have mastered in any way* and the small Japanese ryuha that I belong to. I believe that many Japanese arts are taught as external systems where the internal dynamics are not taught outright, but rather a shell of external understanding is formed with the hope that internal understanding will eventually develop. This is opposed to the internal arts which not only have a whole lexicon for these internal dynamics and skills, but exercises that are specifically targeted to teach those skills. I think both styles of teaching aim for the same underlying truth, the main difference being the methodology.

I can comment on some general *basic* themes, and would be glad to go into more detail off-line. Many of our kata involve exaggerated twisting motions between the upper and lower halves of the body. These tiwsting movements do not however lead to circular movements like you would expect from aikido, but those internal twists are almost always released in very linear movements. An analogy (basic, simple minded, gross, naive, whatever...) to the simple kick that Ark and Rob have demonstrated where a torsion or potential torsion can be released outwards in a straight line. I'm sure Rob probably has better words for the phenomenon in question, and no I'm not saying I get it, and no I don't have it mastered and yes, I'm probably stating the phenomenon incorrectly (honestly, it gets very tiring to qualify everything you're trying to say with what you're NOT trying to say every time you try to say anything...) Another example would be the way we draw. At the end of the draw, it is considered very important that the right arm is completely straight, that the shoulders form a continuous line with the arm and that the left hand has pulled back far enough (saya biki) that it too is in alignment with the shoulder/arm line. The hips are forced square to the line of attack however and are not opened into a hanmi. If you do this correctly, you feel something very much like the cross (or more specifically the preparatory movement before shiko where one arm is folded at the elbow, but not at the expense of the stability of the cross). Again since the hips are square to the direction of movement ( _ ) and the arm/shoulders are at an angle ( / ) you are creating a good deal of tension in the lower spine. There are a number of early kata that perform the draw with the left leg forward which I believe serves to exaggerate this twist, as it's much easier to let the hips drift out with the right foot forward. It is considered very important that the leading (in this case left) leg is not open, but pointed straight ahead. I believe this serves a few purposes, but one is to develop this torsion/tension skill of the torso.

Hope I don't seem to be avoiding your question, there are some aspects that I'm at liberty to talk about and others I'm not, it can also get pretty difficult to describe these things without any visual clues. Feel free to PM/email me if you were interested in discussing this stuff any further. What kind of JSA do you study, I should probably know, but can't remember.

Chris Moses
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Old 07-05-2007, 08:42 PM   #1263
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
And saying that I "quickly dropped it"??? What does that mean? Because I don't repeat it in every post, I've suddenly dropped it? I've used that definition of aiki several times on this board, in various threads. How many times do I have to repeat it? It's a direct definition of kiai as stated by someone who was senior to both Shioda and Tohei.
What did O-Sensei say about kiai in Aikido, David?
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And obviously, you aren't conscious that I did describe "ura of kiai" in physical terms several posts back, replying to Rob. Read the thread.
I did. I agree with Rob. You haven't said anything other than vagaries.
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I'm as qualified to orate on tai chi as you are on aikido, okay? Which is to say, I know only a little bit about it.
I did Aikido 7-8 years. I only went to college for 5 years.... want to toss that off, too? A lot of Aikido with a number of fairly well-known teachers. I know what the concepts and principles are and I can physically do them. Could you even do something basic like receiving jin, cold jin, fajin, etc., in Taiji? If so, this would be a good time for you and I to discuss how these things are done since they cross-apply to Aikido and a number of other arts, albeit with different nomenclature. Want to start? You just made the assertion, so let's see you step up. Shall I start a new thread somewhere I will accept that you know a lot about tai chi, but you really didn't much scratch the surface on aikido.
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Basically, your claim is that you can use tai chi principles to do "the techniques" of aikido. But I don't agree.
I know, David. Time and time again over the last couple of years you've gone in and out of this discussion where you know all this stuff and then you admit you don't know it and then you know it again... and when someone presses you for answers, it cycles again. Why don't you just go visit Dan and see what he can do.... and also show what you can do?
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And as for "complaining that you're being picked on," you do that more than anyone. You attack everyone, then squeal when someone gives it back to you. If I get valid criticism, I consider it. I get invalid criticism, I shrug it off. I get criticism from you, it's just wind.
I'm not complaining about being 'picked on'.... source, please. I am complaining about the fact that you and a select few on this forum will keep any conversation/issue that blows your cover full of discussion about personality. I keep pointing out that you have not responded substantively to any questions in many posts now.
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I meant "call them on it." You would call Tohei if you didn't know it was him. If Shioda posted some stuff straight out of his books, under the screen name "Aikighost" or "Lilaikidoman" or something, your replies would invariably begin, "Lilaikidoman, you don't have a clue. You clearly don't understand how aikido works."
Actually, I'd ask them regardless. If someone says, "Just relax and let the Ki of the Universe flow through you and it will work", OF COURSE I'd question it!!!! I'd say "how does that work". If they tap-danced and bullshitted about "secrets" I'd keep questioning them. If they started talking about my personality flaws because I didn't treat them with enough respect and because I was rude enough to demand factual answers, I'd hold it up to the world to "beware of this man... he's only posting to get himself known". That's the way I am. Why do you think you're suddenly seeing a number of shihans suddenly talk about this stuff (well or not to well) in public? It's because people are questioning. The uncomfortable people seem to be the people who don't really know, as a lot of people have noticed.
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As I say, I meant "calling them on it," the phrase you used in the post I replied to. But the fact is, you don't treat anyone as an equal in the discussions. You don't show anyone basic respect, so you just don't get much in return.
Exactly. That's your real problem, right there. People don't give you and some others "enough respect". The answer is this: people gave "enough respect" for years and all that happened was the same hierarchy and BS ruled. And that's what you want, as do a number of people..... you want somehow to keep the status quo the same and not have anyone rudely questioning. It's a real conundrum and I mentioned several years ago that's exactly what would happen. It's interesting to see.
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Why, it's simply because Mike Sigman says I don't know it, never having met me, never having visited the old dojo in Japan, never having gotten his own black belt in aikido and needing to belittle me to raise his own esteeem. Hey, belittle on, big man. It will make you feel much bigger.
And again... the reason you can't physically describe how to do these things is???
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Right. You've claimed CXW told you you were the only Westerner who knew how to move for tai chi
Give me a quote on that one. I've never said that.
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....you claimed Liang Shou Yu as "your teacher,"
Go back a few posts to where you said I never said who my teachers were, David. Other than just nit-picking and staying on personality, what's your point? BTW.... what's the date of when I mentioned Liang Shou Yu and how many times have I done it? When's the last time you mentioned Mochizuki as your teacher and how often to you refer back to it?
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But to be fair, give me a list of what facts you want and I'll see what I can do.
Just tell us physically how aiki functions as the "ura of kiai". And BTW..... you might want to go back and look at that interview with Inaba Sensei I pointed to a few times. See what he has to say about what aiki is. Think of Ueshiba's manipulating the Sumo player and saying how he did it as "the secret of Aikido". See if you can reconcile your "ura of kiai" with a physical how-to. That should explain pretty well why you're on one page and everyone else is on another one.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 07-05-2007 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:16 PM   #1264
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

I don't want to interupt this love fest. But to clear up a few points Mike was not referring to a year ago but a direct reply I gave him to one of his posts right here. It's all right here to read -just follow along. Not that it matters, since I haven't "changed my mind" about any of this.
Chris, no one will be "doing" silk reeling in a kata or two. It's a very hard, long process of changing the way you move. You wouldn't "do it" here or there in a kata. Nor would it be included as part of a kata here or there. Winding the body is as relevant as a golfer winding "his" body. I know and train with golfers that blow me away on the golf course. Ask them and they will talk all day about relaxed extension and winding But they ain't gonna throw me any day soon. Because they aint' doin what I'm doin.

Lynn
For my part you are welcome. I try -But it isn't easy. You really have to touch and feel and then bang and try to roll. Somewhere along in there when you like what you see and feel you start to work on changing your body. Chances are you could walk out the door of the dojo and quit Aikido, train solo for three years of really intense work, walk back in and probably "do" Aikido better then most senior folks you will ever meet.
Its not unbeatable or any of that claptrap. But its better real time skill then anything most will ever see in such short time. And it just keeps getting better.

Last edited by DH : 07-05-2007 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:59 PM   #1265
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
What did O-Sensei say about kiai in Aikido, David?
I'm not familiar with anything he said about it. Why don't you supply the quote? Unless it's one of the doka you translated. You know how tricky those translators can be...

I do know that he said that atemi is 90%, was it? But I'm not sure what all he might have said about kiai. Did he say that aikido is actually kiai, but he called it aikido because he lost his train of thought while writing and accidentally wrote aiki?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I did. I agree with Rob. You haven't said anything other than vagaries.
Too bad for you. That's why no one answers you. You won't accept any answer but in Sigmango. If you want to reject whatever I say, that's fine. It's no different from my rejecting your smug comments.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I did Aikido 7-8 years. I only went to college for 5 years.... want to toss that off, too?
We're even on college.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
A lot of Aikido with a number of fairly well-known teachers.
That's called scratching the surface--7-8 years with a number of different teachers. When I left Japan, I had 20 years in "ONE" system, five years of that at the hombu with a judan. Does your tai chi even go that deep? Not that I want to lord it over you, but you put yourself out as the big expert teacher, qualified to judge and dismiss anyone, but you're really more like a jack of all trades.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I know what the concepts and principles are and I can physically do them. Could you even do something basic like receiving jin, cold jin, fajin, etc., in Taiji? If so, this would be a good time for you and I to discuss how these things are done since they cross-apply to Aikido and a number of other arts, albeit with different nomenclature. Want to start? You just made the assertion, so let's see you step up.
I'll assert that I know tai chi as well as you know aikido.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I know, David. Time and time again over the last couple of years you've gone in and out of this discussion where you know all this stuff and then you admit you don't know it and then you know it again... and when someone presses you for answers, it cycles again.
Again, Mike, that's "you" repeating yourself, pointlessly.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Why don't you just go visit Dan and see what he can do.... and also show what you can do?
Dan and I have been discussing a trip. He's scheduled up for the next several weeks, as am I. It won't be before October. I'm looking forward to it because Dan just doesn't get offended by a persistent discussion. He's told me I'm wrong and I haven't gotten offended by that because his approach is totally unlike yours. There is a term I've used before, kichigai, which applies to you but doesn't seem to apply at all to him. Kichigai means "altered ki" or "unnatural ki," and basically refers to someone whose mind is unnatural...In martial arts terms it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with ki, but it can be developed by bad ki work. Whatever you're doing doesn't seem to affect your personality the same way his work affects him. Maybe it's because he's doing Japanese stuff and claims to be doing Japanese stuff, but you have this need to dominate the entire world of martial arts. It's too big even for a great master like yourself, though, so it's affected your personality.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm not complaining about being 'picked on'.... source, please. I am complaining about the fact that you and a select few on this forum will keep any conversation/issue that blows your cover full of discussion about personality.
Notice that never happens with Dan? Get a clue.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
...If someone says, "Just relax and let the Ki of the Universe flow through you and it will work", OF COURSE I'd question it!!!!
But that's not really the problem, is it? Earlier, I describe meeting a student of tameshigiri who had trained under Toshishiro Obata, uchi deshi to Gozo Shioda in aikido and student of Taizaburo Nakamura in Toyama-ryu sword. We discussed sword-taking by an unarmed defender and I showed him a method we called te kubi otoshi. He said I was the only person other than Obata who had ever done that technique effectively on him.

Now, if I wanted to explain how that technique was done, why would it be wrong or insufficient for me to say, "as the attacker cuts, move up beside him and take the sword from his hands by appling pressure to the pulse side of his wrist."?

Should I say "Use the outer edge of the first knuckle of the index finger to apply the pressure"? Or do I have to describe it in Sigman-speak, explaining how the internal power of peng-jin makes him release the sword?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'd say "how does that work". If they tap-danced and bullshitted about "secrets" I'd keep questioning them. If they started talking about my personality flaws because I didn't treat them with enough respect and because I was rude enough to demand factual answers, I'd hold it up to the world to "beware of this man... he's only posting to get himself known".
Which might be valid......unless your being "rude enough to demand factual answers" was actually expressed as, "BS! Why don't you admit that you don't know how that technique works? You obviously don't understand the first thing about it or you could explain it in concrete terms!"

THEN is when you'd get the personality comments, don'tcha think? That is how you get those comments, by the way. Who has said anything like that to Dan? I mean, other than you?

And my first sense of you from the early days, when I was quoting your claimed teacher, Liang Shou Yu, on matters of qi, was "This guy is just posting to get himself known." And I still think that. Selling tapes and seminars, yeah?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
That's the way I am.
That's what I said.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The uncomfortable people seem to be the people who don't really know, as a lot of people have noticed. Exactly. That's your real problem, right there.
If I were uncomfortable, I just wouldn't post. As it is, I only post when I have some loose time. But I see you on here every day and night.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
People don't give you and some others "enough respect". The answer is this: people gave "enough respect" for years and all that happened was the same hierarchy and BS ruled. And that's what you want, as do a number of people..... you want somehow to keep the status quo the same and not have anyone rudely questioning.
Status quo has never been my image anywhere I've gone. Ask around.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
And again... the reason you can't physically describe how to do these things is???
I describe sword taking above and the technique I did on the swordsman. What's wrong with that description?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Give me a quote on that one. I've never said that.
That is the quote. At least, it's an accurate paraphrase. Who knows what thread that was on? But you said it and it stimulated several posts of comment. Don't say you didn't say it. Someone will link to it. Like I said, your own comments are invisible to you.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Go back a few posts to where you said I never said who my teachers were, David. Other than just nit-picking and staying on personality, what's your point? BTW.... what's the date of when I mentioned Liang Shou Yu and how many times have I done it?
You think I keep an index of all the stuff you say and when you say it? Isn't that part of your tactic, though? You say so much no one can keep up with all of it, then you demand to know the date you said it. You must make 60 posts a day to various boards and groups, don't you? No one with a serious occupation and a family could really keep up with that kichigai kind of verbal diarrhea.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Just tell us physically how aiki functions as the "ura of kiai".
Okay. What did I say before? "Blocking" a punch is "ura" of kiai but because it still conflicts with the strength of the punch, it's not "pure" ura and therefore doesn't rise to the level of aiki. Aiki goes to the real weakness, the void of strength, which, typically, but not exclusively, is "behind" the punch. Isn't that what I said. So you need it more physical than that? Okay, the way you do that is irimi, which is entering the rear of your attacking partner. That will get you out of danger not only in one-to-one encounters, but also when you're surrounded by multiple attackers. Of course, irimi is more than just entering the rear. It can become atemi, nage waza, sword-takng, etc.

How's that?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
And BTW..... you might want to go back and look at that interview with Inaba Sensei I pointed to a few times. See what he has to say about what aiki is.
Again, I know it amazes you that people don't index all your posts and read them on their knees before bed, but if you want to make a reference like that, you need to supply the link. I read the interview but I don't recall anything specific he said about aiki. Of course, my source was far his senior....as well as senior to Shioda and Tohei....

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Think of Ueshiba's manipulating the Sumo player and saying how he did it as "the secret of Aikido". See if you can reconcile your "ura of kiai" with a physical how-to. That should explain pretty well why you're on one page and everyone else is on another one.
Well, if I'm on the same page as Mochizuki Sensei, you can keep your page.

I think, from Tenryu's description, Ueshiba did aiki age on him. You say that the "secret" was that he was immoveable. I say that the secret is in aiki age, which saps the strength with which the opponent would move you. Making him weak is the same as making yourself strong. You like to appear to make others weak, but it doesn't really affect the truth.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 07-05-2007, 10:29 PM   #1266
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post

I think, from Tenryu's description, Ueshiba did aiki age on him. You say that the "secret" was that he was immoveable. I say that the secret is in aiki age, which saps the strength with which the opponent would move you. Making him weak is the same as making yourself strong. You like to appear to make others weak, but it doesn't really affect the truth.

David
Hi David
Actually Ueshiba did quite a bit of having folks pushing him now didn't he?
Pushing his head, waist, chest and knees etc etc. As for immovability what you fail to get is why that is such a profound step, David. And AIki age is a huge mistake to bring up bud. Aiki age IS peng jin. And its tough to say "sap your energy" to me. Do you know "Why" its "saps your energy? Thats a bad terminology but I'll use it for the argument.
More fun is anti-aiki. Not playing the Japanese game and stopping or stalling the possibility of it being used on you. These are not strategies or tactics they are body conditioning and rewiring. Some of which you then don't have to think about in use , others you choose to use.
And immovability is the source for all the other things that are highly mobile and retain the essence of the immovability in -your own- heightened and faster ...mobility. The central pivot is patently useless without the essence of immovability. And all the later fun stuff still starts with that building block. There are means and methods to putting this stuff together. Like most things you need to get 1.. before 2... then 3... and so on.
Other than insulting Mike I don't get what you mean by unnatural though. This stuff -is- unnatural in every way. And the hardest thing -which most new guys who have met us will tell you -is that the mind gives out before the body.

See ya this fall

Last edited by DH : 07-05-2007 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:35 PM   #1267
Upyu
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
<snip>

I can comment on some general *basic* themes, and would be glad to go into more detail off-line. Many of our kata involve exaggerated twisting motions between the upper and lower halves of the body. These tiwsting movements do not however lead to circular movements like you would expect from aikido, but those internal twists are almost always released in very linear movements. An analogy (basic, simple minded, gross, naive, whatever...) to the simple kick that Ark and Rob have demonstrated where a torsion or potential torsion can be released outwards in a straight line.
<snip>
Ok, just to clear up some stuff, that torison that Ark and I were talking about was "torque" in the body. Its the thing that Dan described where you torque the two centers against each other creating an internal tension which you can direct.

It isn't silk reeling, as far as I know, just another method of internal manipulation. In a sense it's a "quick n dirty" way to generate internal tension. There is a "spiral" nature to it that eventually gets refined, but I do believe its fundamentally different from what Mike has been talking about since it isn't necessarily sourced from the lower dantien.
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:49 PM   #1268
Upyu
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Kichigai means "altered ki" or "unnatural ki," and basically refers to someone whose mind is unnatural...
Actually...it just means "crazy," and its a "housoukinsiyougo" ie, you're not allowed to use it on public television or radio.

Most japanese people dont pay attention to the meanings of "ki" in words. ^^;

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David Orange wrote: View Post
How's that?
It's still vague David and still not talking about the Baseline skillsets that are the topic of this thread.

Dude, the only reason why Mike, despite his assholishness towards others gets respect from some because he has the skills and has demonstrated them...
I've felt it, Jim has felt it, George Ledyard made a post about it and no one came away saying "actually you were full of "#$#t "

Also, I seem to remember originally when I came onto this board, I had no idea who Mike Sigman was. But the concepts he put out to me clicked immediately and I was able to describe what I was training and doing in my body to a certain degree.

Sure there was stuff that was nebulous (there's only a bit of basic stuff that can be covered verbally...and you havent even been able to cover that much) but there are certain key things you can place a safe bet on as to whether the person knows about certain things.
Final check has to be in person of course, but still, if you have these goods, you should be able to describe them in physical components, simply because there are physical movements "inside" your body that are NOT vague at all

Best to you

Last edited by Upyu : 07-05-2007 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:51 PM   #1269
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

When I see posts getting longer and longer, I know from experience that someone is defensively picking the fly-specks out of pepper to maintain a defense. Pass. And when it gets to David Orange and his ole pal Dan Harden being the souls of non-offensive posting, I have to admit that I have probably been blind all this time. Heh.

But enough of that. So you've got this general description of a couple of "techniques" with no explanation of how they work in terms of the forces generated. I notice you try to make the request for a mechanical description some quirk that only Mike Sigman has, but let me assure you that many people work from those kinds of descriptions, David. And a lot of Asians do. If you can't really explain things, please don't try to make it somehow a failing on my part. Take your example, if that's the one you want to use, that's great.... and tell us *why* and how such a technique works physically.

Let me point back to the example of someone standing in a so-called "immoveable" stance, in a "relaxed" way, ground a steady push of limited magnitude. No matter what term they use to describe such a force-equilibrium situation, the analysis is going to force the descriptions into only one or two possibilities, all factors being equal. There are even a few different ways of approaching the analysis, but real-world physics is still going to rule. A Ki-Society guy may think he is "just relaxing", but we can hold him to details and ultimately he's going to have to acknowledge that there are some real and describable mechanics involved in what he does. He cannot "resist an incoming force" and not put his own forces into play, even if he thinks he's just relaxing.

Someone may "sap the attacker's strength" or they may "neutralize the opponent" or they may "aiki" the attack.... but if you rigorously follow the descriptions, you'll find that most of these things are just terminology differences, IF we're talking about the same actual forces in all the discussions. Notice how I avoid discussions, as an example, of "unbendable arm". I know from experience that too often people are not talking about the same forces setup, so I avoid discussing "unbendable arm" unless they want to be fairly detailed in the exact forces. You see why. So asking for detailed force information is not some sneaky Mike Sigman trick.... it's what anyone with any sense would ask for.

Granted, someone could counter with "some of these things must be shown and felt to be understood". I agree with that in relation to establishing a baseline understanding for communication, generally, but notice that Rob, Dan, Tohei, Shioda, Inaba, and many others make complete sense to me with their descriptions (and vice versa in many cases, without doubt) .... if you know how to do it, the communication isn't that difficult. And people learn through communicating; that's the whole point.

Last time I'll ask. See if you can give a physical, factual description to support the physical examples I named like Ueshiba/SumoPractitioner or your wrist example... and try to reconcile your "ura of kiai" with practical mechanics. Here's your chance.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:53 PM   #1270
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Hi rob
I also could say that -that-twisting I was referring to just now isn't a local core thing at all. It's the limbs and center, dantien if you will, working as a taught unit. It gives winding a whole different feel. Its worth noting facial sheets surrounding the dantien and the organs then on to the lungs spiralling out and up and down. Its interesting to have a greco roman guy or a judoka trying to work your upper body and you being able to draw-down and weight them without moving. All done with fascia. Having that continual non-slack non opening (covered in all directions) feel that makes very fast change ups and hits or shoves or the rapid quick reversal or "shake" of Daito ryu possible..

Last edited by DH : 07-05-2007 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:01 PM   #1271
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
More fun is anti-aiki. Not playing the Japanese game and stopping or stalling the possibility of it being used on you. These are not strategies or tactics they are body conditioning and rewiring. Some of which you then don't have to think about in use , others you choose to use.
And immovability is the source for all the other things that are highly mobile and retain the essence of the immovability in -your own- heightened and faster ...mobility. The central pivot is patently useless without the essence of immovability. And all the later fun stuff still starts with that building block. There are means and methods to putting this stuff together. Like most things you need to get 1.. before 2... then 3... and so on.
Hi Dan:

OK... it's a coincidence that we both used "sap your energy" (I said "sap the opponent's strength" but it's the same thing). But why does the opponent feel like his strength has been sapped? He pushes, but it goes nowhere and he can't apply any more strength it seems. What happens? (Incidentally, I already answered that question in a previous post, so I'm not just being rhetorical). Those are the kinds of details that will help beginners IF people are really interested in helping beginners and not just in grandstanding.

This idea of "secrets" that people are sworn to uphold, yada, yada, yada, is interesting to me, but frankly in this sort of "Baseline Skillset" discussion, I'm curious why such basic concepts are treated like some deep, dark koryu/masonic-lodge technology.

Your second-paragraph in the quote above is spot-on. That's where everything starts. Right there.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:10 PM   #1272
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Its interesting to have a greco roman guy or a judoka trying to work your upper body and you being able to draw-down and weight them without moving. All done with fascia.
Well, just to play the Devil's Advocate.... is that really true? "It's all done with fascia"? How about a simple example of trying to lift someone's arms who has ki/kokyu skills and it's very difficult (it's never "impossible") to raise them... is that just fascia?

Regards,

Mike
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:17 PM   #1273
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi Dan:
This idea of "secrets" that people are sworn to uphold, yada, yada, yada, is interesting to me, but frankly in this sort of "Baseline Skillset" discussion, I'm curious why such basic concepts are treated like some deep, dark koryu/masonic-lodge technology.

Your second-paragraph in the quote above is spot-on. That's where everything starts. Right there.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
I help beginners in person, not on the net.
I know the idea of Koryu must bother you because you are so sarcastic about it. Its as simple as your word. I presume that most guys are fairly honest. In some schools you have to pledge to not discuss the schools "goods" in public. So you're really a scum bag if you break your word. At least to me they would be. Other schools don't require an oath but you know they don't like things being taught openly. Its a relationship thing. There is a host of men in Japanese Koryu who take umbrage to your insulting those ideals and models. I think I understand where you're coming from, But I understand a koryu relationship as well and I respect it.

Why would you knowingly choose to use a word like grandstanding? Why...throw that out there? There are actually very few people reading these forums, and the majority of them really don't give a crap about this stuff. So who is grandstanding to whom. I think its "tempest in a tea cup" all the way, and I frequently feel the fool for even caring to write in. Grandstanding is certainly an interesting word that denotes importance. I feel no sense of importance nor even positive affirmation here. So other than a hobbyist interest..... I feel disinterest both to and from the community, never mind - approval. Yet I try to remain as respectful as I can manage and write if I care to do so.

Last edited by DH : 07-05-2007 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:42 PM   #1274
Upyu
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi rob
I also could say that -that-twisting I was referring to just now isn't a local core thing at all. It's the limbs and center, dantien if you will, working as a taught unit. It gives winding a whole different feel. Its worth noting facial sheets surrounding the dantien and the organs then on to the lungs spiralling out and up and down. Its interesting to have a greco roman guy or a judoka trying to work your upper body and you being able to draw-down and weight them without moving. All done with fascia. Having that continual non-slack non opening (covered in all directions) feel that makes very fast change ups and hits or shoves or the rapid quick reversal or "shake" of Daito ryu possible..
Well I was talking more about the IMA "101" stage as well, just to be clear.
But even at that stage you can have some results in that context providing you have a connected body.

I agree with you on the more overall connection, being more important which I'm finally getting myself.
Its a continual process of "well I think it's like that" and 6 months down the road going "uhh...wow that was such an amateurish take on it"
The Aun statue I posted before from Kofuku temple is a pretty good example of the windings I *think* you're talking about.
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:47 PM   #1275
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi Dan:

OK... it's a coincidence that we both used "sap your energy" (I said "sap the opponent's strength" but it's the same thing).
Regards,

Mike Sigman
Uhm...no coincidence as my post #1266 was quoting David's post #1265 which referred to "sapping the opponent's energy"
Does it really matter that -you- chose to use the same term as me quoting David? What's up with that? I'm not keeping score or trying to arrive at a concensses here. We don't get along, and everybody else hates us both...er...yeah us!
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