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Old 07-02-2007, 11:59 AM   #1151
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
Such posts have no place in a public forum and please do not cry about him being mean to you first. Please stay on topic.

Mark J.
Again, so much for a little humor.

Anyway, if I want to cry about Mike, I'll post it on YouTube and link it here.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:12 PM   #1152
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
This post refers both to Dan's recent interactions with Mike and to Chris' earlier skirmishes.

Having read a tremendous number of Mike's posts, I have come to some conclusions about his "intent" on the boards.

"Having a discussion" is NOT his intent.

Mike does have cross-motivations for posting.

Number One is self-aggrandizement. That forms about 90% of his intention.

80% of his intention is to belittle others.

Having both 80% of one intent and 90% of another is possible in that a tremendous amount of his self-aggrandizement comes from insulting others. A put-down of others is a boost to himself. So the self-aggrandizement and belittling actually add up to about 97% of his entire "intent" in posting.

Another 20% of Mike's intent in posting is a severe and easily understandable longing for human contact. Some of this is satisfied by people who suck up to him and want to jump on his bandwagon and he will accept that as long as one does not attempt, in any way, to imply that they agree with him because they, too, have some kind of understanding. Those meet with belittlement as severe as he gives those who dispute with him (see Chris' interactions above). But Mike enjoys the disputes as much as the sucking up because he knows that a person has to have some kind of human contact or he'll die.

And it's not that he is afraid of dying, or would even mind it, but he can't bear the idea of the great loss to the world his demise would represent!!!!

So there is how Mike combines 90%, 80% and 20% to arrive at 100%, which explains his vast powers of disputation, insult, self-glorification and long-windedness.

David
Gee, another post devoted to a personal attack on little ole me. I do notice an unfortunate pattern in my "skirmishes" over the years, David. It seems that every time I run afoul of some self-professed "expert" and I don't buy it and I question what they say, the conversation suddenly winds up about "me". Amazing. But frankly, pretty predictable, given the number of self-styled "experts" and "teachers".

Now you know why I so publicly disavow myself from those titles and why I consistently say that I only discuss basics. When you learn the basics, please feel free to get in touch with me.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:14 PM   #1153
MM
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Chris, are you deliberately forgetting how many times I have quoted Minoru Mochizuki's exact definition of aiki? "aikiis the ura of kiai."
Hi David,
Can you explain that in more detail? The aiki is ura of kiai?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I have never defined aiki as "avoidance," but I have said that children use aiki when they avoid an adult's trying to control them. Avoidance, itself, is not necessarily aiki but it can employ aiki. In the child's case, they use the ura of the adult's strength by going instinctively to its weakest point without having to be taught how to find that weakness. They know inately because it is part of the human nervous system.

It has little to do with skeletal movement and everything to do with the instinctive use of the weakest part of an adult's efforts.
Hmmm ... okay, IF the main purpose/definition of aikido is using the inherent weak part of effort, then there might be something to your theory. IMO, using the basest sense of jujutsu or sometimes parts of aikijutsu, then you might have some working theory. Throw in Jung's collective consciousness and a few other odd bits and pieces and maybe.

But, I have a different view of aiki-do now. One in which your theory doesn't hold much sway. Structure has a lot to do with aiki. Weakest parts of an adult's effort does not. In other words, aiki works with either the strongest part of an adult effort or the weakest part of an adult effort. Doesn't matter. Not being sarcastic or anything here David, but think about that.

If you do make it to Maryland, we really should get together. In person is communication. This stuff here (AikiWeb, BB, emails, etc) is not.

Mark
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:34 PM   #1154
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
It seems that every time I run afoul of some self-professed "expert" and I don't buy it and I question what they say, the conversation suddenly winds up about "me". Amazing. But frankly, pretty predictable, given the number of self-styled "experts" and "teachers".
Right. Of course, you never make the discussion about "them," do you? And of self-styled "experts" and "teachers," who among us has produced his own video series and sold it? 'Nuff sed, huh?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
When you learn the basics, please feel free to get in touch with me.
Sure thing, Mike.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:44 PM   #1155
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Right. Of course, you never make the discussion about "them," do you? And of self-styled "experts" and "teachers," who among us has produced his own video series and sold it? 'Nuff sed, huh?
And nowhere styled as anything but "basics", David. But you seem reluctant to leave the topic of personal attacks and inferences. Why not join the discussion with some "how to" stuff instead of the rancor?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-02-2007, 01:14 PM   #1156
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Can you explain that in more detail? The aiki is ura of kiai?
Absolutely. According to Mochizuki Sensei, kiai is omote (front or visible, outward, recognized). It's one's pure intent. In other words, kiai is the spirit of attacking and it's pure. A person intends wholeheartedly to push, punch, kick or cut another person. That's his omote and he puts his power into that. A good example is the punch, where his power is truly focused within a small surface area in a space of an inch or two in depth.

It is, in fact, the ura of that omote to "block" the punch, strike it from the side or whatever, but that's not really the ura in a pure sense.

The real ura of an attack is where the strength is "empty" (the opposite of the fully-concentrated power in omote).

And there are two basic ways to do that:

1) move to where the force is not
2) manipulate the force to where it becomes weak

Aikido tai sabaki moves to the emptiness of the attacking strength (as a child slides into the weakness of his parents' grasp and moves to a position where he is hard to hold).

Manipulating the force can be done by parrying and/or turning the attack.

Aikido in fact, usually manipulates the attack/force while also moving into its weak spot, thereby multiplying the effect of both methods.

Unlike a "blocking" movement, though, real aiki goes to the "pure" ura of the attack--where it really is weak--and, unlike the "block," does not interfere at all with the force, so it is like the force "slips" or "slides" into its own ura or is turned inside-out or backward from itself.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
But, I have a different view of aiki-do now. One in which your theory doesn't hold much sway.
That's not my "theory," it's Minoru Mochizuki's definition of aiki.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Structure has a lot to do with aiki. Weakest parts of an adult's effort does not. In other words, aiki works with either the strongest part of an adult effort or the weakest part of an adult effort. Doesn't matter. Not being sarcastic or anything here David, but think about that.
It "works" with the strongest part of any effort by using the inherent weakness of that effort. The old saying is, "Every front has a back. The bigger the front, the bigger the back."

Every omote has an ura. The bigger the one, the bigger the other. So however strong anyone is, his strength has an equal weakness in the ura and aiki uses that. So the weakest part of an adult's effort definitely does have something to do with aiki: it's the essence of it.

Of course, structure is a given. Without it, you literally can do nothing.

Take aki-age, for instance. If you don't have basic structure, you can't stop an on-rushing attacker by applying aiki-age because you'll be driven back, yourself. But once Mochizuki Sensei had us doing a series of techniques from aiki-age and he laughed when I did it to a judo godan, pointed at me and said, "Now that guy is good at this!"

Aiki-age would, on the surface, appear to go directly against the attacker's greatest strength, but it uses the principles described above (of course, with strong [but not fixed] posture) to access the ura of that strength, where it suddenly becomes completely weak.

I have broached the subject before with Rob and maybe with Dan as to whether their methods somehow "access" the ura of the attacker's strength directly through the physical contact. But I never got any real answer to that question.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
If you do make it to Maryland, we really should get together. In person is communication. This stuff here (AikiWeb, BB, emails, etc) is not.
Well, as close as it sometimes comes, this is not an utter void, or I wouldn't spend as much time here as I do.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 07-02-2007, 01:23 PM   #1157
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
And nowhere styled as anything but "basics", David. But you seem reluctant to leave the topic of personal attacks and inferences. Why not join the discussion with some "how to" stuff instead of the rancor?
I note that whenever "anyone" discusses anything as they understand it, you (specifically) are very quick to come in with dismissals and ridicule, heavy with direct or implied personal attacks. It's just really funny to hear you come back like you do when you get a taste of the same kind of thing. Personal attacks until the cows come home, but when you get a cow at your house, you do the dramatic death scene from Hamlet and moan about personal attacks.

I think the fora would be far better if, as Dan suggested, we all become more subtle in and less focused on the put-downs and really discuss the stuff. Most of what you post is hints about what you know, dismissals of what others say and references implying that "those who know" would laugh at what the other guy says and humbly nod at whatever pearls you have laid before us.

I don't really care. This is electrons on a screen. If you wanted to be more forthcoming with what you "know," you could put a helck of a lot more content into your posts and a lot less misleading innuendo and put-downs. Like Chris' thing about silk-reeling. There he was trying his best to get on your good side and you just had to smack him down. You should be ashamed!!!!!

Shame on you, Mike Sigman!!!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 07-02-2007, 01:37 PM   #1158
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

/snipe mode/ jeez, there is plenty of shame to go around...look at what a jerk I can be!/snipe mode off/



Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-02-2007, 03:25 PM   #1159
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I note that whenever "anyone" discusses anything as they understand it, you (specifically) are very quick to come in with dismissals and ridicule, heavy with direct or implied personal attacks.
Oh stoppit. You claim to be an expert and a teacher and you resent people not accepting your word. If you knew the stuff, you could answer the questions. If you publicly post that you are an expert, expect the questions. Certainly bona fide students have a right to see how you handle questions and it's enlightening to see "teachers" challenged. It does good for the art.

Again, why don't you contribute factual information, physical "how to's", etc., rather than name-dropping with the constant "me and Mochizuki" stuff? One thing that always makes me suspicious is when someone's credentials rely heavily on someone else's name or reputations ( even anonymoust ones like "Chinese masters" or "secret koryu" or "senior Tai Chi teachers" etc.). Hey.... I'm willing to listen to guys claiming to be experts, but when you get into the game, the ante is being able to answer real questions, not smear someone else's reputation to get off the topic. It's very un-Aikido-like.

Insofar as Chris's "silk reeling', wouldn't the obvious answer to my first remark have been to simply explain how what he did was silk-reeling and how it worked?...... as opposed to anger and attack? Which response would have signalled actual knowledge? The "attack when the going gets tough" stuff seems to be pretty common on some "forums" ("fora" is proper if you speak Latin, for the neuter plural, but within English the more proper plural is "forums").... it seems to be a face thing. I'm not really interested in face or I'd hang out shingle of some sort... how about some plain answers from you experts?

The original topic had to do with the idea that the Chinese martial arts use some sort of "different approach". I say they don't really, if you look at the basics. "Reeling Silk" is actually a product of ki and kokyu-power, when you break it down to its components. However, if you disagree, why not see if you can explain why rather than do another post on my personality as you perceive it?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-02-2007, 03:56 PM   #1160
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Yes I am stating I learned it from Japanese sources
[[snip]]
I didn't bring up the Chinese method except to say a teacher I know was listening to me describe what I was doing and he used the word "full" which I jumped on! It was perfect for what I was trying to say. It is part of the breathing of in/yo ho. Every other referrence to things "Chinese" came from you.
What I don't get is we have been discussing my way as being different from the framework, stretched method you use. I don't do that except to teach new guys some basics to midlevel stuff.
But now you just swtiched and told me what -I- am doing is Chinese.
I have no idea what you're saying, other than the implication that you're somehow "advanced" and something about "stretching the body" is only for beginners up to moderate level. So much for suspending the head in every internal martial art I know of.

The point is this. You claim and infer that you have advanced skills. You don't provide the names of who you got these skills from, but you are definite that you got them from someone (see above quote). I politely asked where. That's a fair question, but it didn't get an answer.

You've spent a lot of time focused on the idea that Ueshiba learned his stuff from Takeda and that Ueshiba's claims to greatness need to be looked at closer because everything he got was from Takeda. You seem concerned about setting the record straight, when it comes to Ueshiba, so how about playing by the same standards yourself?

I listened to your comments on "slack" and told you that they sound more like "jin" to me and I asked where you got your stuff from. Now we're at your statement that you learned it from some Japanese. It's unlike anything I've ever heard from Japanese (and I started out exploring these skills in Japanese arts, so let's get off the idea that somehow what I do is only Chinese), so I asked questions. Again, it seems that when the questioning gets tough, the attacks start. I can point you to archived posts of yours where the same thing has happened.

What's so hard about explaining things simply? Who did you study with that taught you these things, Dan, if they're "Japanese"? If they're your take on things, why not just say so? Once you make the claim, why get upset about the public questions and start dragging in irrelevant comments about all the people who like you or have been polite to you? Surely someone as advanced as you claim to be will have no question with the simple questions I'm asking; my ante has been paid by the extended descriptions of how to do things, as are a couple of other peoples'. Or is this something where readers are expected to just accept each person's opinion without question.... sort of like ghost stories around the campfire?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-02-2007, 04:35 PM   #1161
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
/snipe mode/ jeez, there is plenty of shame to go around...look at what a jerk I can be!/snipe mode off/
Isn't there?

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 07-02-2007, 04:48 PM   #1162
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You've spent a lot of time focused on the idea that Ueshiba learned his stuff from Takeda and that Ueshiba's claims to greatness need to be looked at closer because everything he got was from Takeda. You seem concerned about setting the record straight, when it comes to Ueshiba, so how about playing by the same standards yourself?
"People in those days wanted to observe how I took ukemi for Takeda Sensei rather than his techniques themselves. His techniques were really rough. He would throw me to the mat by reversing my hand. Since I immediately stood up after being thrown with a smile on my face, he would grow increasingly more irritated. (Laughter) He again came to me. I entered before he reached me. In other words, I was in an irimi position. So he was unable to throw me. On the contrary, I was in a position to throw him but I couldn't since he was an old man. What Takeda Sensei did then was to take a "gyaku" or reverse position when he entered. But I had studied gyaku techniques since I was a boy. If I strike you like this you will fall. I learned this from my grandfather when I was small."
-Noriaki Inoue
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=373
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Old 07-02-2007, 04:52 PM   #1163
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I have no idea what you're saying, other than the implication that you're somehow "advanced" and something about "stretching the body" is only for beginners up to moderate level. So much for suspending the head in every internal martial art I know of.
The point is this. You claim and infer that you have advanced skills. You don't provide the names of who you got these skills from, but you are definite that you got them from someone (see above quote). I politely asked where. That's a fair question, but it didn't get an answer.
I have advanced skills?
You're asserting I stated somewhere I have advanced skills?
Where?______________________________.
I stated that certain things I was talking about are past the things you were bringing to the table. Which are more in line with begining and midlevel work. There is more

Names of teachers? You hate it when names are brought up. You just said so yourself.. I stand on my own. My truth is in my own hands. As far as you are concerned just say I made up or learned this stuff from you on the internet. It was so easy I could read it and do it and impress my friends. Thanks.

Advanced or expert?. Odd that you are the only person I have ever met who tells me "I think I am one."
Apparently everyone else can read..

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I listened to your comments on "slack" and told you that they sound more like "jin" to me and I asked where you got your stuff from. Now we're at your statement that you learned it from some Japanese. It's unlike anything I've ever heard from Japanese (and I started out exploring these skills in Japanese arts, so let's get off the idea that somehow what I do is only Chinese), so I asked questions. Again, it seems that when the questioning gets tough, the attacks start. I can point you to archived posts of yours where the same thing has happened.
Attacked? Where were you attacked by me?
Why not stick to the topic. For a guy who said on the Neijia list that you deliberately provoke and push people to get them spill the beans you sure have a thin skin. You presume that I care about your opinion enough to be moved by your prodding.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
What's so hard about explaining things simply? Who did you study with that taught you these things, Dan, if they're "Japanese"? If they're your take on things, why not just say so? Once you make the claim, why get upset about the public questions and start dragging in irrelevant comments about all the people who like you or have been polite to you? Surely someone as advanced as you claim to be will have no question with the simple questions I'm asking
Regards,
Mike Sigman
Ever heard the term projection?
You
Video's, interviews, now books. One of us is trying to come across as an expert. Whether you state it or can reconcile the implications or not- your behaviour is clear.

Me
.............................................................
Here maybe this will help ya Mike.
No one should come here.
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Old 07-02-2007, 04:53 PM   #1164
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Oh stoppit. You claim to be an expert and a teacher and you resent people not accepting your word. If you knew the stuff, you could answer the questions. If you publicly post that you are an expert, expect the questions. Certainly bona fide students have a right to see how you handle questions and it's enlightening to see "teachers" challenged. It does good for the art.
Nobody minds being questioned more than you, Mike. I don't mind and I've never claimed to be an expert. I knew an expert very well and I go by what I learned from him, but no one knows better than I that I'm not a "master."

But again, with the personal attacks. That's where you're the master and yet you have the thinnest skin when they come back to you! It's funny!

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Again, why don't you contribute factual information, physical "how to's", etc., rather than name-dropping with the constant "me and Mochizuki" stuff?
Well, that's what I just said: whatever "anyone" (and that means me or "ANYONE" else posts, "you" and that means "MIKE SIGMAN" come in and not only "question" it but flat out say that it's wrong, mistaken, ignorant and (insert your favorite insult here) plus your opinion that the person who said it "doesn't understand," "doesn't have a clue," "can't do" or "(insert your favorite put-down here)".

And then your sycophants jump into the "discussion"....

So I give you back a taste of your own kusuri and your golden curls start whipping about and your little feet start stamping....

Get a sense of humor, Cap.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
One thing that always makes me suspicious is when someone's credentials rely heavily on someone else's name or reputations ( even anonymoust ones like "Chinese masters" or "secret koryu" or "senior Tai Chi teachers" etc.). Hey.... I'm willing to listen to guys claiming to be experts, but when you get into the game, the ante is being able to answer real questions, not smear someone else's reputation to get off the topic. It's very un-Aikido-like.
(Dang...how do you type the sound of someone stifling a laugh?)...Like I say, Mike, all anyone can go on is where they've been and what they've done. You apparently once had someone "talking about promoting you to black belt in aikido" and...apparently that didn't happen...you went off into Chinese martial arts and now these years later, you want to be known as an expert in Japanese arts, too. I don't mind that. I don't put any stock in rank, myself. But you, yourself, would be taken even more seriously than a lot of people take you if you weren't so insistent on putting other people down. You can have glory on glory without that. But if you constantly put it out, you will eventually get some back. It's just human nature.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Insofar as Chris's "silk reeling', wouldn't the obvious answer to my first remark have been to simply explain how what he did was silk-reeling and how it worked?...... as opposed to anger and attack?
Funny you should interpret his response in that way. I don't think that's the kind of "sensitivity" we try to develop as martial artists, is it?

As I read Chris' reply, it was a little defensive, but far from an attack. He was trying to stay on your good side trying to ally with you. No way he wanted to attack you. He wanted your good graces. You should go back and reread it.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
("fora" is proper if you speak Latin, for the neuter plural, but within English the more proper plural is "forums")
Oh. Sorry. I usually speak Latin, especially when I'm talking to myself....

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The original topic had to do with the idea that the Chinese martial arts use some sort of "different approach". I say they don't really, if you look at the basics. "Reeling Silk" is actually a product of ki and kokyu-power, when you break it down to its components. However, if you disagree, why not see if you can explain why rather than do another post on my personality as you perceive it?
Again, that had to do with my statement that the Japanese and Chinese arts "do" "begin" with the same basics, but each emphasizes a different principle or two, then refines and evolves that emphasized method to the point that it is vastly different from those arts that have followed the same process emphasizing different principles. I said that "silk reeling" is an example--"unless someone can show me a Japanese art that uses silk reeling."

Your reply was something like "research would probably show that some koryu had used it at some point in the past" which was all you needed (your own speculation) to prove the "fact".

Of course, when Chris said that his ryu uses silk reeling, AH! That verged into an attempt to share the spotlight with Master M! Let the excoriation begin!!!!

I note that you never addressed Dan's assertion that silk-reeling is included in daito ryu....

Don't take it so hard, Mike. And maybe you shouldn't dish it out so much, either.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 07-02-2007, 04:58 PM   #1165
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The point is this. You claim and infer that you have advanced skills. You don't provide the names of who you got these skills from, but you are definite that you got them from someone (see above quote). I politely asked where. That's a fair question, but it didn't get an answer.
Er....he implies: you infer.

Anyway, what a laugh!!!!

You have steadfastly refused to tell "who" taught you!

Geez!!!

Perp, babe?

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 07-02-2007, 06:08 PM   #1166
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Again, that had to do with my statement that the Japanese and Chinese arts "do" "begin" with the same basics, but each emphasizes a different principle or two, then refines and evolves that emphasized method to the point that it is vastly different from those arts that have followed the same process emphasizing different principles. I said that "silk reeling" is an example--"unless someone can show me a Japanese art that uses silk reeling."
How is silk-reeling an example? You simply assert these things like that settles it. Do you understand what "silk reeling" is? No, you don't. Prove me wrong, don't go off on another character-assassination attempt, let's see you back up your assertion with some rigor instead of the strength of your feelings, as you usually do. Okinawan karate has "kokyu power", yet a neophyte would tell you that Okinawan karate and Aikido are "different".... which is what you are saying about Japanese and Chinese martial arts. You see a superficial difference because you don't understand the commonality. Your use of "silk reeling" as an example is a classic example of where you think there's a divergence but in reality it's the same thing. So I ask you, as usual, to back it up with some facts (besides "me and Mochizuki").

BTW... notice how easy it is to discuss the issue rather than join you in your personality stuff. Try it, for a change.

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-02-2007, 06:12 PM   #1167
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Er....he implies: you infer.

Anyway, what a laugh!!!!

You have steadfastly refused to tell "who" taught you!

Geez!!!

Perp, babe?
Look it up. It's in various forums when it was germane. As one of your attempts to stay in the bickering domain, I see no point in replying. Look at my previous posts.... you have yet to give a single substantive answer to very straightforward questions about how to do things. The only surmise appears to be that you don't know, right?... so it's an attempt to save face by changing the conversation continually to personalities?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:50 PM   #1168
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Look it up. It's in various forums when it was germane. As one of your attempts to stay in the bickering domain, I see no point in replying.
Well, stop asking others for it, okay?

Someone mentions their teacher, they're namedropping, they don't mention the teacher, they're hiding. They don't give credentials, they have none. They ask for your credentials, it's character assassination.

As to silk reeling, I understand that it's a central method of many Chinese arts. It has even been said that it's essential for all Chinese martial arts. I know that it's developed from the physical movement used by Chinese silk makers and was adopted into and developed by Chinese martial artists--much as kokyu (breathing) was developed into a refined skill in Japanese arts.

And before you have an aneurysm, don't take that as the full summation of my knowledge of kokyu, though it is about all I know about silk reeling--except that it is a unique movement and very precise. It's a highly refined element of Chinese martial arts that I said exemplifies "a" skill that did not come into the Japanese arts unless, I said, you can show me a Japanese art that incorporates it.

You have not done that. You pirouetted all over Chris' assertion that his style has it and did a grande jette past Dan's assertion that he was taught it in daito ryu, but all you could provide was vague speculation that "some" koryu may have had it in the past, which satisfied your level of intellectual inquiry.

So if you know of a Japanese art that uses silk reeling, please, lay it out there. If you don't, don't cover it up with the stamping of the little feet and the flinging of the little curls and the things of that nature, like the saying of the negative things about the personalities of those who are questioning you. When you don't know, just admit it. I do. But where I do know, I will assert it and whatever you say doesn't bother me because I went where you didn't go and met people you didn't meet, who were closer to Ueshiba than you have been. Why would I take your word over theirs?

But then, you "got" what Draeger "failed" to get in all his years in Asia with all the Japanese and Chinese masters he knew. You've done better by touring the US and attending a seminar here and there.

That's just incredible. Who could fault a character like that?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:04 PM   #1169
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Someone mentions their teacher, they're namedropping, they don't mention the teacher, they're hiding. They don't give credentials, they have none. They ask for your credentials, it's character assassination.
Emmmm.... do you think that you and I are the only people who read this thread and Dan's previous posts? I asked where he learned something... not what his credentials were. Something he represented as "Japanese". In your haste to make bad noises, you're getting a little whippy.
Quote:
As to silk reeling, I understand that it's a central method of many Chinese arts. It has even been said that it's essential for all Chinese martial arts. I know that it's developed from the physical movement used by Chinese silk makers and was adopted into and developed by Chinese martial artists--much as kokyu (breathing) was developed into a refined skill in Japanese arts.
Silk Reeling is a form of movement with qi/ki and jin/kokyu-power. That's all it is. In other words, your guess that there are specific, refined movements peculiar to Chinese martial arts indicates that you don't understand ki and kokyu, even though you use the terms. Go back to my example of karate having kokyu and Aikido having kokyu. There are karate people and Aikido people who have no idea what that means, so they take a superficial appearance, belief in their own style being unique, etc., and postulate to the world about the great "differences".... similar to what you're publicly doing. Yet, go ask Ikeda Sensei why he's discussing kokyu with the karate expert, Ushiro. Ikeda understands there's no real difference. Reeling silk is just a variant of the same process and it does NOT come from the movement of Chinese silk makers, for chrissake. Your whole commentary about silk reeling and "refined Chinese principles" is a fignewton of your imagination.
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And before you have an aneurysm, don't take that as the full summation of my knowledge of kokyu, though it is about all I know about silk reeling--except that it is a unique movement and very precise. It's a highly refined element of Chinese martial arts that I said exemplifies "a" skill that did not come into the Japanese arts unless, I said, you can show me a Japanese art that incorporates it.
Who cares? The movements in Aikido employ pulling silk, which is just a variant of ki/kokyu as is reeling silk.
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You have not done that. You pirouetted all over Chris' assertion that his style has it and did a grande jette past Dan's assertion that he was taught it in daito ryu, but all you could provide was vague speculation that "some" koryu may have had it in the past, which satisfied your level of intellectual inquiry.
OK, so all they have to do to respond to my side of the discussion is provide some details of how it works, right? Some people might just say, "I don't know", but that seems to be declasse' on this list.
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But then, you "got" what Draeger "failed" to get in all his years in Asia with all the Japanese and Chinese masters he knew. You've done better by touring the US and attending a seminar here and there.
Actually, a LOT of people now have "got" what Draeger and a number of the earlier martial-arts buffs didn't get in regard to this very narrow subject, but a very key subject... in a number of martial arts. But that's called progress. Unless you want to postulate that Draeger et al represented all there was to know about relatively shallow, technique-oriented Asian martial arts? Is that your position?

Let me note that you tried to respond with only a couple of facts, and those were misunderstandings about reeling silk. Is that all the facts you have, to support your assertions? Not even any simple "how to's", etc.? You made the assertion. I questioned it. You devoted posts to denigrating me in response, trying to mask your lack of knowledge and to curtail questions. You're used to speaking unquestioned to a bunch of open-mouthed students, I suppose? Why not just accept that if you make a public assertion it's open to public question and that slandering the questioner is not generally the best response.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:20 AM   #1170
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Emmmm.... do you think that you and I are the only people who read this thread and Dan's previous posts? I asked where he learned something... not what his credentials were.
Same thing, Mike. You also demanded specifically "who" taught him. You should read again. Everyone else knows what you said, as well.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Silk Reeling is a form of movement with qi/ki and jin/kokyu-power. That's all it is. In other words, your guess that there are specific, refined movements peculiar to Chinese martial arts indicates that you don't understand ki and kokyu, even though you use the terms.
There you go again, George Bush. So silk reeling is "ONLY" "a form of movement with qi/ki and jin/kokyu power." That's "all" it is, huh? Then "any" movement with qi/ki and jin/kokyu (again, that mistaken relation) "is" "Silk Reeling"? Don't buy it, Senator. You're no Morihei Ueshiba. Your big fallacy is surfacing again. Stick to tai chi, which you apparently know pretty well. Most people who become accomplished there are satisfied with that. Only the kichigai have the intense need to be recognized simultaneously as experts in JMA, and only the really kichigai pursue it so doggedly and in such insulting fashion to all others. Now you're bending your holy principles (that Chris couldn't possibly know) into something very simple. That's called kichigai.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Go back to my example of karate having kokyu and Aikido having kokyu.
You could have given an example of "how the earth is flat" and made as much sense and been just as true. Yes, both karate and aikido use kokyu, but they use it in virtually opposite ways. Karate uses kokyu in kiai while aikido uses the ura of kiai, which is aiki. And since you've shown previously that you don't understand kiai either, I don't expect that explanation to affect your walnut-sized brain in the least, but there it is.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
There are karate people and Aikido people who have no idea what that means, so they take a superficial appearance, belief in their own style being unique, etc., and postulate to the world about the great "differences".... similar to what you're publicly doing. Yet, go ask Ikeda Sensei why he's discussing kokyu with the karate expert, Ushiro. Ikeda understands there's no real difference.
Have you had that discussion with Ikeda Sensei, yourself, or are you, like so much else you do, simply speculating from a distance. "Aha! I see that the sunrise is a golden color! Ergo, the sun is made of gold!!!! I shall take mys spaceship to the sun and return a rich man!!!"

.....yeh......

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Reeling silk is just a variant of the same process and it does NOT come from the movement of Chinese silk makers, for chrissake. Your whole commentary about silk reeling and "refined Chinese principles" is a fignewton of your imagination.
No, it isn't. Since I am only one human being, able to study deeply in only a few subjects, I supplement my direct experience with extensive reading in areas where I cannot make direct explorations. And being interested only in the truth of those matters, I read only the best writers I can find. You, fortunately, are not among those. But what I have read is that silk reeling movement did develop from a local Chinese culture of silk making, based on the particular unique movement of the silk makers drawing out the silk thread and reeling it onto spindles or holding devices. Just as the Okinawans developed the oar and the kama into weapons requiring unique manipulations and therefore unique physical movements, the Chinese developed this silk reeling movement, "REFINED" it, evolved it and incorporated it into the major Chinese martial arts. The deep particulars of it are beyond my experience, but I trust my sources on that far more than I would trust you with my dog.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Who cares?
Someone must.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The movements in Aikido employ pulling silk, which is just a variant of ki/kokyu as is reeling silk.
Now, that is very interesting. I said "show me any Japanese art that uses silk reeling" and you said that "probably" some ancient ryu once used it. Then you told Chris that his koryu couldn't possibly employ it. And now you say that aikido does employ it.

Is there any reason you didn't give that answer when I first said, "Show me a Japanese art that uses it"?

Hadn't made it up yet, maybe???

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
OK, so all they have to do to respond to my side of the discussion is provide some details of how it works, right? Some people might just say, "I don't know", but that seems to be declasse' on this list.
Not with me. I've said it several times, haven't I? You are the one least likely to use that phrase, of all the many tinfoil-hat-wearing genius know-it-alls on the entire internet, Mike Sigman is THE #1 LEAST likely of all to admit "not knowing" something about any subject known to man. Here's your Internet Trophy, Mike.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Actually, a LOT of people now have "got" what Draeger and a number of the earlier martial-arts buffs didn't get in regard to this very narrow subject, but a very key subject... in a number of martial arts.
But the important point is that "you," Mike Sigman, esq., Lord of All He Surveys, King of All to whom He Speaks, Master of Every Subject Known, "got" what Donn Draeger didn't get as a menkyo holder in Katori Shinto Ryu, master of judo, founder of hoplology, veteran of decades in Asia and student of many, many great Japanese and Chinese martial artists. And you did it all inside your own, magnificent head........

That tinfoil really works, huh?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But that's called progress.
Are you saying they didn't have tinfoil in Draeger's day, or they hadn't yet learned to make hats of it? Or maybe you have just devised a superior type of hat from it???? Progress is a wonderful thing.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Unless you want to postulate that Draeger et al represented all there was to know about relatively shallow, technique-oriented Asian martial arts? Is that your position?
Well, at least we know "who" trained Draeger and "what" he learned, which we don't know about Mike Sigman. And from Draeger's hands-on experience with the breadth and depth of masters he knew (and since you, yourself, have lamented the decline into the modern day), I'm pretty sure that I'd much prefer to learn from Draeger than from thee.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You made the assertion. I questioned it. You devoted posts to denigrating me in response, trying to mask your lack of knowledge and to curtail questions.
Mike, the denigrating posts were entirely unrelated to the other questions, which I dealt with in other posts. I just felt that the denigrating posts needed to be made. They were related to the thread only to the degree that you needed to have your festering boils lanced. It's a messy, messy job, but it was just crying out to be done, so...I did it.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You're used to speaking unquestioned to a bunch of open-mouthed students, I suppose?
That's a laugh. Nobody believes anything I say. I was uchi-deshi to one of the earliest uchi-deshi to one of the undeniably most senior students of Sokaku Takeda. I know my skills and abilities and, most importantly, what my limits are. I sacrificed a huge portion of my time on earth to learning aikido from the best there was available at that time. And he told me that I "pretty well understand" or "pretty completely understand" (daibu wakaru) aikido. But no one listens to a thing I say.

And that's fine with me. I'd always rather be underestimated than fully understood....

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Why not just accept that if you make a public assertion it's open to public question and that slandering the questioner is not generally the best response.
I'm fine with that. I just wonder why "you" don't take that attitude when your assertions are questioned.

And again, my critique of your posting style was neither 'slander' nor a response to your questions. It was just a dirty job that had to be done.

Best wishes.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 07-03-2007 at 09:27 AM.

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Old 07-03-2007, 10:24 AM   #1171
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

I think I'll let your posts speak for themselves, David. My only comment will be that my information on silk reeling comes from a number of experts over a number of years. The last person who discussed with me personally where it came from (the name, "silk reeling") was Chen Xiao Wang. Your information is wrong. But again... for the umpteenth time, instead of personal attacks, why not either try to physically explain things or simply say "I don't know"?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:49 AM   #1172
Upyu
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
There you go again, George Bush. So silk reeling is "ONLY" "a form of movement with qi/ki and jin/kokyu power." That's "all" it is, huh? Then "any" movement with qi/ki and jin/kokyu (again, that mistaken relation) "is" "Silk Reeling"?
Not that it takes me to point it out, but that was never said...

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David Orange wrote: View Post
And now you say that aikido does employ it.
"Pulling Silk" vs "Reeling Silk" dude.
Check it
Theyre two different things and even I wouldnt pretend to have the slightest idea about all the requirements behind reeling silk.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
And he told me that I "pretty well understand" or "pretty completely understand" (daibu wakaru) aikido. But no one listens to a thing I say.
The reason being you still havent, even since the e-budo days, come up with a competent description of the body mechanics we talk about.
Even though Ive never met Dan(though I finally met Mike) and both of them arent the best of friends here on the web, I can understand what they say perfectly...because they have the goods.
As far as these bodyskills are concerned it doesnt seem like you have them.
Explaining them in terms of Aiki is the Ura of Kiai etc is all fine and good, but if you have command of the body skills you should be able to describe them sans the "mochizuki" speak.
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Old 07-03-2007, 11:44 AM   #1173
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I think I'll let your posts speak for themselves, David.
Very good.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
My only comment will be that my information on silk reeling comes from a number of experts over a number of years. The last person who discussed with me personally where it came from (the name, "silk reeling") was Chen Xiao Wang. Your information is wrong.
And he said it's in aikido? Or any other Japanese art?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But again... for the umpteenth time, instead of personal attacks, why not either try to physically explain things or simply say "I don't know"?
You don't explain them or say you don't know. Why don't you physically explain how it's part of aikido?

David

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Old 07-03-2007, 12:10 PM   #1174
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Not that it takes me to point it out, but that was never said...
Yeah, Mike said it in post #1169:
"Silk Reeling is a form of movement with qi/ki and jin/kokyu-power. That's all it is."

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Robert John wrote: View Post
"Pulling Silk" vs "Reeling Silk" dude.
Check it
Theyre two different things and even I wouldnt pretend to have the slightest idea about all the requirements behind reeling silk.
Mike used it as an equivalent term. Otherwise, why even mention it? It's his effort at obfuscation....etc.

And you reinforce my point that Reeling Silk is a highly refined and developed Chinese concept that is not found in the Japanese arts. That's all I said. There was no reason to mention "pulling silk" if it isn't related, was there?

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Robert John wrote: View Post
The reason being you still havent, even since the e-budo days, come up with a competent description of the body mechanics we talk about.
Edited addition:

If Mochizuki said I understood aikido "pretty completely," then no one else's judgment (based on comments on a message board) really impresses me. Only an idiot would imagine that he didn't understand aikido, so I have to think he meant something meaningful in that comment. Maybe the upshot of it is that you're discussing something "other" than aikido. (end of edited addition)

Well, I doubt that Mochizuki or Shioda would describe things the way that you (or especially Mike) do. I haven't read anyone's "competent description" of those mechanics--just vague references to bits and pieces along with occasional quotes that people claim support what they're saying. The aunkai website is getting better, but in our first encounters on e-budo, about the most "complete" description anyone was using was "this stuff" and "it has to be felt."

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Explaining them in terms of Aiki is the Ura of Kiai etc is all fine and good, but if you have command of the body skills you should be able to describe them sans the "mochizuki" speak.
Well, your site and discussions revolve around rooting and the equalization of forces, front and rear, side-to-side and up-and-down. The old ways of training were a slow way to enforce those awarenesses throughout the body and to train them. The new ways, largely revolving around competition (for judo at least), destroy those balances by developing tokui to an extreme. One likely has a few good waza and he's likely good at those on one side only and in a randori context. The training I went through was always equal for left and right and it was oriented to eliminating a preference for the left or right. Even in sword work, we did suburi both right and left.

The kind of skills you describe are a study in themselves. They were never discussed in the old dojo except as a by-product of long-term training. Whatever I have developed of them (enough to easily do aiki age on a judo godan, at least) has come without even thinking of them as separate skills, so they would have developed without specific jargon or rationalizations.

"Ground path"? Who can accomplish "any" effort without grounding?

When has anyone talked about any kind of "qi development" without relying first and foremost on alignment of the body, grounding and tanren?

And none of what any of you describes really deviates from that. None of you describe it clearly enough to show that it's any different from that, either. Dan's descriptions come closer than most.

Still, when it comes to aiki and aikido, I don't see any need to discuss it in terms other than Mochizuki used. I don't see any need to accept a definition that's radically different than what he used. All I can conclude is that you are all doing something different that is "related" or "relatable" to aiki and aikido, and I have not attempted to discuss that.

So it's wrong to judge my statements on one subject by relating it all to another subject.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 07-03-2007 at 12:16 PM.

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Old 07-03-2007, 12:32 PM   #1175
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Yeah, Mike said it in post #1169:
"Silk Reeling is a form of movement with qi/ki and jin/kokyu-power. That's all it is."
Come on, David! All this banging and bashing is a lot of fun, but it starts to feel cheesy when you drop into such mistaken logic. A gin and tonic is 'just' a drink with alcohol, water, and carbonation -- but that does not make a 'rum and coke' a gin and tonic. But the point stands that a gin and tonic can be made from a variety of gins and a variety of tonics. You could even probably make a drink that was, *in spirit* essentially a G&T with an even wider range of ingredients -- but Coca Cola would not be one of them (even though it might be okay to use Pepsi in a version of 'rum & coke').

Quote:
And you reinforce my point that Reeling Silk is a highly refined and developed Chinese concept that is not found in the Japanese arts. That's all I said. There was no reason to mention "pulling silk" if it isn't related, was there?
Why not just entertain the notion that there may be two related but non-trivially different styles of movement designated by the terms 'reeling silk' and 'pulling silk'? If you know that, then nothing Mike or Rob said seems at all incongruous. Your reactions have a somewhat paranoid tone which almost suggests that you are just unfamiliar with what they mean. That wouldn't have to be a problem, but it sets a poor precedent for discourse if you compound an understandable (and admitted) ignorance with unnecessary insinuations of linguistic foul play. It makes it sound as though you are *not* genuinely interested in information which *is* being communicated.

-ck
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