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Old 06-27-2007, 05:38 AM   #1
CarlRylander
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Ueshiba on Youtube

Everyone should have a look at these vidclips, if they haven't seen them before.

Ueshiba is good, very fast for a man of seventy-plus. You can tell by the way he is moving, he knows his trade.

Thing is, someone has posted some very insulting comments about him on some of the clips. You can tell that what they really object to is the peaceful aspect of Aikido.

I wonder what he would have said. I think it is just as much of a test in Aikido to see if you can take this sort of insult, as much as sparring!!
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Old 06-27-2007, 07:51 AM   #2
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
Everyone should have a look at these vidclips, if they haven't seen them before.

Ueshiba is good, very fast for a man of seventy-plus. You can tell by the way he is moving, he knows his trade.

Thing is, someone has posted some very insulting comments about him on some of the clips. You can tell that what they really object to is the peaceful aspect of Aikido.

I wonder what he would have said. I think it is just as much of a test in Aikido to see if you can take this sort of insult, as much as sparring!!
Please post the links.

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Old 06-27-2007, 09:20 AM   #3
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
Thing is, someone has posted some very insulting comments about him on some of the clips. You can tell that what they really object to is the peaceful aspect of Aikido.

I wonder what he would have said. I think it is just as much of a test in Aikido to see if you can take this sort of insult, as much as sparring!!
They watched a video of an old guy doing all sorts of strange looking things that cause the "attackers" to fly into the air. They then say, "Hm, that looks fake." Then you say, "What they really object to is the peaceful aspect of Aikido." Sorry, but what? I consider those videos of Ueshiba-sensei to look very strange, despite trying my best to figure out what he's doing. There are several points where his uke seem to be doing the aikibunny thing. Was it just that he was so good it looked fake? Based on historical evidence, I think that's quite likely.

But you shouldn't be upset with people for balking at the videos. You can criticize them for profanity and vulgarity if you like, but YouTube is not exactly a polished forum. (To be perfectly honest, 70% of the comments on that site are appallingly dumb. It's a frightening look into what you might hear if you could listen to what the average person was thinking while watching a given show.)

So while snarky adolescent comments reflect badly on their authors, I don't see any grounds for attacking their skepticism itself -- they've been presented with something outlandish, and they say as much. Unless they have some evidence-backed reason to believe what they see, they'd be foolish to believe it.
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:52 AM   #4
CarlRylander
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

First of all, let me tell you that I don't practice Aikido yet. I'm still thinking about it.

There are about ten videos at the moment on Youtube google 'Youtube' and then internal search 'Ueshiba Aikido'. You'll find it.

Most of the videos look a bit choreographed, as do most vidclips of Aikido. But there's one that doesn't. I can't remember which one it was, but Ueshiba is shown holding someone on the floor with one hand. On that one and on the others, you can just see that he's a bit more co-ordinated than the average black belt.

My friend, who is a TKWD black belt, has seen a video of someone running at a settee, lifting it and throwing it without grasping. He told me once that Ueshiba took on six marines and beat them, at seventy. He believes all that Ki stuff and so do I. I've done it, and I'm not even a practitioner. Once, when I was a student, I threw a blunt spoon at a fire door and made it stick in, in front of six witnesses, who were astounded. I subscribe to the 'surge of adrenalin' theory about Ki.

The insulting comments and you'll have to search to find them, called Aikidoists 'Japophiles'. They said O Sensei was a senile old fool who was running a cult. They're quite testing, though there are some good posts. Some people say they have used it in real life, some say it's a bit choreographed. They're a lot like post on this site.

I do hope that Aikido doesn't become a 'dance-like metaphor for resolving conflicts'. I don't think that's what O Sensei would have wanted.
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Old 06-27-2007, 10:38 PM   #5
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

I've seen a video of O-sensei doing a demonstration with his uke on top of a building with a group of Americans watching. He threw the uke around with shihonage perfectly then invited one of the Americans to grab his wrist. The guy awkwardly stepped forward and grabbed his wrist. O-sensei performed a shihoage on him and the poor confused looking guy just rolled out of it!

Honestly, I don't think we'll ever know what O-Sensei was up to in his late age.
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Old 06-28-2007, 04:35 AM   #6
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

It's not just Aikido that concerns itself with Ki, you know!!

As I said, my TKWD black belt friend believes in it too.

There was a programme on British cable last year where a karate black belt applied a force field to someone's back. He then moved backward behind him where he could not see him and pushed the air. The man stumbled forward.

I can't explain it, but I believe it.

I don't think O Sensei was getting senile in his old age. The west has yet to catch up with the East in some things.
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:18 AM   #7
Basia Halliop
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

It's a shame it's not possible to see videos of him when he was younger or even middle aged. The videos of him as an elderly man show amazing fitness, agility, and coordination for his age (I mean, let's mentally picture him 'sparring' against almost any opponent his own age I get kind of an amusing picture of him practically turning cartwheels as another old man shuffles slowly up to him and tries to poke him with his cane), yet I simply can't imagine anyone genuinely trying to attack a man of his age, let alone a highly respected one in Japan, even if they were told to, and I doubt we're likely to ever see a video of him that doesn't look like the ukes are being nice, because they'd practically have to be psychopaths not to be (plus it wouldn't actually surprise me to find that he was kind of a show off and enjoyed the flattery in his old age).

FWIW, he does give the impression sometimes that he might enjoy a bit of cultishness sometimes... but I wouldn't be surprised if his senior students knew what they were doing; things I remember reading from them sounded like they had a lot less 'reverence' and a lot more genuine respect.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 06-28-2007 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:20 AM   #8
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
There was a programme on British cable last year where a karate black belt applied a force field to someone's back. He then moved backward behind him where he could not see him and pushed the air. The man stumbled forward.

I can't explain it, but I believe it.
You can't be serious...?
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:35 AM   #9
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
You can't be serious...?
I wasn't going to say anything. But yes. I think he is. This is deeply unfortunate.

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
It's a shame it's not possible to see videos of him when he was younger or even middle aged. The videos of him as an elderly man show amazing fitness, agility, and coordination for his age (I mean, let's mentally picture him 'sparring' against almost any opponent his own age I get kind of an amusing picture of him practically turning cartwheels as another old man shuffles slowly up to him and tries to poke him with his cane),
HA! Yes, I would give him good odds against the average 70-year-old...

Although what you ask for is not that hard to find.

http://aikido.magnify.net/item/S5SHCS8VN29SMYJP

Him at 52 -- older, sure, but by no means elderly. After all, here's a 72 year old who punched a (27-year old ... hey, 72-27? Funny...) robber silly:
http://apnews.excite.com/article/200...D8Q0TBCO0.html

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
yet I simply can't imagine anyone genuinely trying to attack a man of his age, let alone a highly respected one in Japan, even if they were told to, and I doubt we're likely to ever see a video of him that doesn't look like the ukes are being nice, because they'd practically have to be psychopaths not to be (plus it wouldn't actually surprise me to find that he was kind of a show off and enjoyed the flattery in his old age).
This makes a lot of sense. Terry Dobson expressed a similar sentiment. (I think he then said that he decided to hell with it and actually rushed him, only to get knocked senseless.)
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:36 AM   #10
ross_l
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Ueshiba-sensei said it best in the Art of Peace:

"As soon as you concern yourself with the "good" and "bad" of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you."

He probably wouldn't care what people said about him on Youtube.
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:50 AM   #11
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
The west has yet to catch up with the East in some things.
Like the magical ability to toss people with your mind? Or are we talking about new tech from Sony?
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Old 06-28-2007, 11:07 AM   #12
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Like the magical ability to toss people with your mind? Or are we talking about new tech from Sony?
Nice one.

It's Yellow Bamboo time! This is an example of a martial art specializing in these sophisticated energetic practices.

Regular training ("I can't explain it, but I believe it.")
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rm5WtE-2dPg

vs. a haughty grappler challenger (with NO study of ki...the poor fool!)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_1ykNZ7rAcw

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 06-28-2007 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 06-28-2007, 11:17 AM   #13
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

You're right. What a complete idiot that grappler was!!! Going out there without even the basics of ki blasting. Like a rabbit to the wolves.

Dunno where these BJJ morons come from!
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Old 06-28-2007, 11:17 AM   #14
Basia Halliop
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Hmmm... actually I think I've seen the 'younger' ones, but forgot when it was (somehow I thought he was also older in that one).
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Old 06-29-2007, 04:53 AM   #15
CarlRylander
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
You can't be serious...?
I'm perfectly serious. I saw it with my own eyes. It was on British cable TV. A man who was not an Aikidoist did it. My aunty has studied yoga and she has heard about it.

If you want another fact, the Russians did investigations on such things and they have film of someone lifting matches by just passing their hands over them.

There are more things in heaven and earth then are dreamt in with your philosophy, Roman!!

I believe that Usheiba was still dangerous at seventy. As I said, my TKWD friend told me he took on six marines. Ninety nine percent of people at that age aren't, but if you are of above average reflexes and strength, you still could be. My Great Grandfather, who was a barefist boxer in his youth, was working as a doorman till he was sixty eight. He could lift half a hundred weight with one arm at that age. That cable program had seventy year old black belts on it.

It's not just Aikido that has people doing fantastic things, you know!
A lot of the arts do. Imagine if you trained for forty or fifty years at something, The things you could do! I'm not saying that I could, but I'm prepared to believe others can
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Old 06-29-2007, 08:38 AM   #16
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
I'm perfectly serious. I saw it with my own eyes. It was on British cable TV. A man who was not an Aikidoist did it. My aunty has studied yoga and she has heard about it.

If you want another fact, the Russians did investigations on such things and they have film of someone lifting matches by just passing their hands over them.

There are more things in heaven and earth then are dreamt in with your philosophy, Roman!!

I believe that Usheiba was still dangerous at seventy. As I said, my TKWD friend told me he took on six marines. Ninety nine percent of people at that age aren't, but if you are of above average reflexes and strength, you still could be. My Great Grandfather, who was a barefist boxer in his youth, was working as a doorman till he was sixty eight. He could lift half a hundred weight with one arm at that age. That cable program had seventy year old black belts on it.

It's not just Aikido that has people doing fantastic things, you know!
A lot of the arts do. Imagine if you trained for forty or fifty years at something, The things you could do! I'm not saying that I could, but I'm prepared to believe others can
There certainly are a lot of surprising truths out there waiting to be discovered. However, just about everything you describe up there makes me highly skeptical. It does not conform with the current state of knowledge about such things, and extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. So far, I'm not seeing even "ordinary" evidence; I'm seeing several levels of credibility below that (e.g. unsourced anecdotes.)

If I might ask, how old are you?

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 06-29-2007 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:03 PM   #17
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post

There was a programme on British cable last year where a karate black belt applied a force field to someone's back. He then moved backward behind him where he could not see him and pushed the air. The man stumbled forward.

I can't explain it, but I believe it.
.
I think this was the show Carl is referring to although I can't find a clip showing what he describes, I saw it too. I enjoyed the show, some really interesting stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvRJEWHzGTo
I have to say I am and was very skeptical. The video with the Yellow bamboo chap getting tipped by the bloke on the beach sums it up for me I'm afraid. Lot's and lots of frauds and gullible people wanting to believe, making any real skill or power or energy is obscured.

What's really interesting is watching the Qi Gong group after the Wing Tsun chap has explained a lot of the tricks. Is it me, or is the 'eyeball' trick really using the bony inside ridge of the eye socket rather than his actual eye? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co6G-vyAlII

Jon

Last edited by Jonshez : 06-29-2007 at 03:12 PM.

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Old 06-29-2007, 09:24 PM   #18
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

Quote:
I'm perfectly serious. I saw it with my own eyes. It was on British cable TV. A man who was not an Aikidoist did it. My aunty has studied yoga and she has heard about it.

If you want another fact, the Russians did investigations on such things and they have film of someone lifting matches by just passing their hands over them.

There are more things in heaven and earth then are dreamt in with your philosophy, Roman!!

I believe that Usheiba was still dangerous at seventy. As I said, my TKWD friend told me he took on six marines. Ninety nine percent of people at that age aren't, but if you are of above average reflexes and strength, you still could be. My Great Grandfather, who was a barefist boxer in his youth, was working as a doorman till he was sixty eight. He could lift half a hundred weight with one arm at that age. That cable program had seventy year old black belts on it.

It's not just Aikido that has people doing fantastic things, you know!
A lot of the arts do. Imagine if you trained for forty or fifty years at something, The things you could do! I'm not saying that I could, but I'm prepared to believe others can
Alright...I'm lost and confused now. Are we dwelling into fantasy and delusion or are we still on humour and sarcasm?
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Old 06-30-2007, 04:45 AM   #19
CarlRylander
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

In reply to Roman, I'm forty.

My TKWD friend, who is a black belt and quite hard-headed, told me about the settee incident, which has been filmed. I've never seen the Russian film, but I have seen the force field incident.In addition, I've heard of people who can, blindfolded, sense what colour is on a printed page. There are also people and animals who can sense people coming up behind them. I've seen a dog do it. My great uncle could.

It isn't cynicism to not believe in things you have seen with your own eyes. Maybe you haven't seen the footage, Roman. If you did, but you couldn't explain, perhaps you should just settle with the statement ' It's unexplainable', rather than talk about fantasy. Perhaps there are phenonema that are unexplainable by our present science.

Perhaps it can all be explained by hyper-sensitivity, hypnotism, auto-suggestion and application of strength, I don't know, but I'm willing to accept that our science isn't the pinnacle of all knowlege.
Some of the things we can do would be seen as magic hundreds of years ago.

I've noticed there are a lot of people on this site who are a bit sceptical about Aikido. Why are they studying it, then? The higher reaches of all martial arts have theses elements. It doesn't matter where you go.
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:11 AM   #20
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

In addition, Roman:

'Extraordinary claims require extrordinary evidence.'

From what I can work out, you've at least seen some of the footage of Ueshiba. You've seen the evidence, haven't you?
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:13 AM   #21
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

I'm sorry Roman, it was Paul who said that.
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:22 AM   #22
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

On a related note, here's a demo by famous British mentalist Derren Brown of no-touch punch : http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...videoid=759170

The mental component of aikido is extremely important : perception of intent and openings, attracting and guiding the other's attention, among other elements. All of this is part of martial arts strategy and training, and aikido probably as much as any other. I read somewhere (sorry, I don't have the reference around) that O Sensei was very interested in sleight-of-hand tricks, and I relate it to the element of deception involved in both activities. A magician's main asset is his ability to manipulate their spectators and lead their attention away from where it really matters. To achieve this he must be in a state of total control of the spectator's perceptions and reactions, and keep his own mind centered. Does it sound familiar ?

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Old 06-30-2007, 05:35 AM   #23
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

My Great Uncle said that he's seen my Grandad drop someone with a 'One inch punch', a la Bruce Lee. My Great Uncle thought he'd killed him.

Actually, if you could hypnotise someone and just make them go away, you wouldn't have to fight them. It would be the ultimate in Aikido!!

I know someone who has an almost hypnotic stare. I had a dispute with him once. It was absolutely terrifying. It took all my willpower not to turn away.
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:43 AM   #24
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

That Derren Brown clip with the candle is 'inexplicable'.

Unless it's a camera trick.

I have read about the fields that surround a body and every living thing. Have you heard of Kirlian photography?Perhaps some people can project them. That's how Ueshiba said he could sense people behind him. He said that the field from electric trams disturbed him.

I don't know. Perhaps Derren is flicking his fingers faster than the camera can see.
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:00 AM   #25
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Re: Ueshiba on Youtube

For me when it comes to this "unexplainable" stuff Derren Brown and James Randi the the debate enders. Brown does all sorts of things that people claim as being supernatural powers but admits that it's trickery. If he claimed special powers, based on what he can do plenty would beleive him. If he can fake it, you have to accept that others can and likely are. It's more likely someone is doing a Derren Brown than usurping the laws of physics.

And of course Randi has a million dollars for anyone that can demonstrate "psychic powers" under test conditions. So if you know guys that can "see" colours blindfolded - why don't they go collect a million bucks?

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