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Old 06-17-2007, 11:35 AM   #26
russians in town
Dojo: ShinKiKan, Houston, TX
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Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

I would like to thank you all for your comments- I appreciate your opinion and time spent on reading my post. I may like or not like some of the replies, but you are more experienced people than me, so I respect that.
Here is just a little bit of clarification on my account:

I tried to carefully choose the words for my post, so when it's said that "sometimes I can give an atemi" it means sometimes not all the time. Even I'm not so stupid to do it on regular base.

In times when one's stuck in doing a technique because of good resistance or strength of your partner, one has nothing else left , but to punch or kick to distract or disbalance his/her uke and finish the technique. I don't want to say it's normal in my dojo, but it happens sometimes with everybody.

As for Janet Rosen's comment: from my very first day in dojo I got an idea what I should expect from the guys, and believe me I'm not so privileged to give atemi and not to get it back. We are equal in almost all ways.

My point was about the level of power in using kicks or punches. When my atemi is mostly just a pretence (no contact at all) or very light I will go "OK" with the same or even stronger one knowing the guy didn't mean to hurt me. Although, when I get something that knocks me down and I know it was done on purpose, the excessive use of power doesn't feel good.

When guys (black belts included) cannot perform the technique and get frustrated, some of them tend to become aggressive and use excessive power to bring the uke down-it's easier that way.

After my post and your replies I asked four of my dojo guys (all higher ranks than me) whom I usually train with if I really was a difficult training partner with my love to resist and give occasional atemi. They said that not at all-I just give them a little bit of challenge, but they don't mind.

Sometimes I have an opportunity to train with Sasha, my sensei, and it's very difficult to resist with him as he's just awesome. He never uses an excessive power on me (he usually says he's using only 10% of his strength) even when I do punch or kick him. Everything goes in a positive mode and mood.

Yulia

"Go for the moon. If you don't get it, you will still be heading for a star."- Willis Reed
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Old 06-18-2007, 05:41 AM   #27
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
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Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

Quote:
Yulia Putman wrote: View Post

When guys (black belts included) cannot perform the technique and get frustrated, some of them tend to become aggressive and use excessive power to bring the uke down-it's easier that way.
A black belt does not suddenly cause one to be above human, he (or she) can loose temper and misbehave just like anyone else.

Not being there, Forum members are bound to judge from your posts, hence the comments you have received.

One last pointer regarding resistance and openings: It is much easier to resist when Uke knows in advance the technique Tori is about to apply. It is even easier after a few tries, since you already know the process. Most people as Uke, perform supposedly minor changes in their movements after the 3ed to 4th round of a technique. Once those changes were made, the situation changes and suddenly you can find lots of "openings", most of those are not realistic since Tori should have changed his technique due to the changes, except he is bound to the Sensei demonstration while Uke thinks his changes do not change the Kata...

Amir
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:52 AM   #28
RoyK
Dojo: Nishin Kan
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Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

Quote:
Toby Kasavan wrote: View Post
I like David Valdez's answer
I liked it too! Last week, at a Q&A with Suganuma sensei, he said that it's very important to be fluid rather than resistive when being uke in kihon waza, not only for what David said, but also for the fact that the ability to connect to a technique and take it safely and fluidly, and perhaps even reverse it, you need allot of practice as well.
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Old 06-19-2007, 10:24 PM   #29
eric1235711
Location: São Paulo
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Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

Hey Yulia! How it's going?

Well, forgive me for not reading all the posts.

I don't know in which belt you are but I'd like to say something.
Forgive me if my words looks too serious, I still got a lot to learn.

He likes when you counter attack? Are you helping his techinque improvement or are you disturbing him? Is he acepting what you are doing or not? What're the reasons you do that?

would you like to others do with you what you do with them?

Hugs!

Last edited by eric1235711 : 06-19-2007 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:48 AM   #30
tarik
 
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Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
An eye for an eye.. makes the whole world blind....
-- Mohandus Ghandi
What'd you say? Can't read that.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 06-20-2007, 06:42 PM   #31
russians in town
Dojo: ShinKiKan, Houston, TX
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Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

Quote:
Eric Kinoshita wrote: View Post
Hey Yulia! How it's going?

Well, forgive me for not reading all the posts.

I don't know in which belt you are but I'd like to say something.
Forgive me if my words looks too serious, I still got a lot to learn.

He likes when you counter attack? Are you helping his techinque improvement or are you disturbing him? Is he acepting what you are doing or not? What're the reasons you do that?

would you like to others do with you what you do with them?

Hugs!
Hi, Eric! I'm still a white belt and believe me I have a big respect for our black belts-they are all great and awesome guys!

As for that particular guy (shodan), I do not train with him too often as he started teaching in our brunch dojo, so he and his students come to the main dojo once or twice a month. I don't know what he thinks of me or my behavior, but he never refused to train with me.

I do not mind other people doing it to me as fantom punches or kicks into your open side help to remember and improve your body posture and movement during attacks. So getting a punch or two into the same spot makes you think and turn your body to your advantage and keep you safe next time. At least that's how it works for me, although I don't know if it's good for others-my bad!

I never go difficult with lower rank training partner-I remember myself! I do sometimes attack higher ranks with full power and vigor (by popular demand!) as we were told by our sensei to practice honest and realistic attacks.

I also never go difficult with something new we are learning. Only in case we know the technique well enough to perform it without any big technical problems (although with no grace or flow ) I can get difficult to add more challenge. The guys do the same thing to me-no offence at all!

Aikido is my hobby and I'm having fun in dojo despite all those hidden or open problems and it's only me whom to blame on!

Have a good one, Eric!

"Go for the moon. If you don't get it, you will still be heading for a star."- Willis Reed
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Old 06-20-2007, 08:05 PM   #32
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

My dear,
Set yourself aside and learn something new. Sounds to me like you've already got the fight, resist, injury,and pain formula down to a science.

As for atemi, use it in the formal context of the technique being taught and you should be alright. It is when we get big ideas to start 'showing' and 'teaching' our seniors with random shots that we can find ourselves in the hottest of waters. Take the moment where you want to show someone else something to ask yourself what principle you might add to your own practice at that moment.

In my dojo, if you were to follow the behavior you have outlined in your original post, as I understand it, you may be well asked to leave for breach of etiquette. If you are unclear about the expectations for etiquette, you must ask. Otherwise, you will 'be told'. No fun.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 06-20-2007 at 08:14 PM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 06-21-2007, 11:47 AM   #33
Erik Calderon
 
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Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

Yulia, you have started a very nice thread and many people have already posted very good comments, even though you may not like some of them.

I enjoyed reading this thread and the responses. And, training with you is tons of fun! I think you must have had some kind of KGB training or you must be some kind of secret agent. You always know where I am open and where you could easily defeat me!

Erik Sasha Calderon
http://www.shinkikan.com
Aikido ShinKiKan.

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Old 06-21-2007, 11:56 AM   #34
Marie Noelle Fequiere
 
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Wink Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
My dear,
Set yourself aside and learn something new. Sounds to me like you've already got the fight, resist, injury,and pain formula down to a science.

As for atemi, use it in the formal context of the technique being taught and you should be alright. It is when we get big ideas to start 'showing' and 'teaching' our seniors with random shots that we can find ourselves in the hottest of waters. Take the moment where you want to show someone else something to ask yourself what principle you might add to your own practice at that moment.

In my dojo, if you were to follow the behavior you have outlined in your original post, as I understand it, you may be well asked to leave for breach of etiquette. If you are unclear about the expectations for etiquette, you must ask. Otherwise, you will 'be told'. No fun.
In my dojo, we have a very friendly atmosphere, that does not exclude mutual respect. Sensei often encourages a lower belt to give a LIGHT tap to a higher ranked partner when he is not happy with said higher belt's performance (we all have our good days and our bad days). This is done in a very friendly manner, and I have never seen a sempai get angry and retaliate with brutality. I myself once resisted a flawed sihonage by pivoting around sempai. Sensei was watching, and he was laughing. Sempai did not get angry. He tried again, managed to correct his mistake and sent me nicely to the mat. He never tried to brutalize me the next time he had a chance. I sincerely think that sending a partner flying just because of a light tap is a symptom of a personality problem. I did, in a previous answer advise to Yulia to try not to irritate this particular sempai. I also noticed that other sempais seem to enjoy training with her (see Erick Calderon's blog).
It is not Yulia's place to point to a sempai that something is wrong with his attitude. But this is a fact that he will have to face sooner or later.
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Old 06-21-2007, 12:02 PM   #35
Erik Calderon
 
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Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

Yulia, look at the picture I put as my avatar. It's me throwing you in Koshinage.....I know you love it!

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Old 06-21-2007, 07:08 PM   #36
russians in town
Dojo: ShinKiKan, Houston, TX
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Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

Quote:
Erik Calderon wrote: View Post
Yulia, look at the picture I put as my avatar. It's me throwing you in Koshinage.....I know you love it!
Oh-my, this is more embarrassing than anything else! And please note-I love it only after more than a year of training with you!

"Go for the moon. If you don't get it, you will still be heading for a star."- Willis Reed
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Old 06-22-2007, 09:27 AM   #37
Marie Noelle Fequiere
 
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Talking Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

Quote:
Erik Calderon wrote: View Post
Yulia, look at the picture I put as my avatar. It's me throwing you in Koshinage.....I know you love it!
I wonder if I will ever be able to take a fall like that. Yulia, I know now why this mean sempai treats you the way he does! He's jealous!
Wouaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahhahahah!
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Old 06-24-2007, 01:09 PM   #38
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

Quote:
Marie Noelle Fequiere wrote: View Post
I wonder if I will ever be able to take a fall like that. Yulia, I know now why this mean sempai treats you the way he does! He's jealous!
Wouaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahhahahah!

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 06-24-2007, 01:27 PM   #39
statisticool
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Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

If someone attacking me goes 'blind', say from an eye poke, long enough for me to get away from their aggression, I'm ok with that.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 06-25-2007, 09:50 AM   #40
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

Quote:
Marie Noelle Fequiere wrote: View Post
In my dojo, we have a very friendly atmosphere, that does not exclude mutual respect. Sensei often encourages a lower belt to give a LIGHT tap to a higher ranked partner when he is not happy with said higher belt's performance (we all have our good days and our bad days). This is done in a very friendly manner, and I have never seen a sempai get angry and retaliate with brutality. I myself once resisted a flawed sihonage by pivoting around sempai. Sensei was watching, and he was laughing. Sempai did not get angry. He tried again, managed to correct his mistake and sent me nicely to the mat. He never tried to brutalize me the next time he had a chance. I sincerely think that sending a partner flying just because of a light tap is a symptom of a personality problem. I did, in a previous answer advise to Yulia to try not to irritate this particular sempai. I also noticed that other sempais seem to enjoy training with her (see Erick Calderon's blog).
It is not Yulia's place to point to a sempai that something is wrong with his attitude. But this is a fact that he will have to face sooner or later.
What you say with here, I agree with. The environment that you outlined is similar to mine. I am the Sensei in my dojo and my teachers have taught me to train in the manner that I am outlining. I was probably quite a bit like Yulia when I started training and it is from this position that I am speaking. In giving thoughts to Yulia I can say that 'self-correction' is the first step, and by her own words, she is too hard and resistant. Given the different cultures of learning in Aikido, it is important to evaluate whether you are participating in the 'local standard' or whether you want to. If you are getting continually injured, insulted and harmed; then there is a problem that needs to be solved. One way of dealing with that issue is to adhere to strict etiquette; where we do not attempt to correct our sempai, which we might do in friendlier, more agreeable circumstances. There is a lot to be learned from sitting back in a certain respect and allowing the situation to reveal itself without further 'goading' or challenging. Even if that lesson is to learn to identify a 'hater'. In this way it does not become 'personal' and take us off course. If your sempai is out of control, then he/she will be out of control with others as well. The quality of patience is the receptive quality of aikido, an admittedly unbalanced skill in the confessions of our friend, Yulia. If you are always performing some version of Nage Waza or 'telling' and 'controlling' you will miss the lessons that aikido and the situation are attempting to communicate to 'you'.
Like many others I've cetainly dealt with my share of hard lessons; given and taken. And I've learned from them. What I've learned is there is no one 'right' answer. Only a process, based on training and O'Sensei's philosophy, that we can dependably follow. It may not appear that that we learn in that moment answers our questions today, but it always tells us something we need to know. Maybe even there is another way to go about training and learning than the one we came into the dojo with. Maybe not. But you have to listen to know and that means slow your previous patterns down and evaluate your progress.
This process includes everyone, especially Sempai. Something will certainly bring this other person into balance, it just may not be you and it may not be today.
Until then, quit hurting your body so that you can train for many years through many lessons and remain a benefit to your training community.
Good Luck. I know you will solve this well.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 06-25-2007 at 10:03 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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