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Old 06-04-2007, 08:39 AM   #1
antonis paps
 
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Unhappy Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

I stumbled upon an article that was stating, that several serious injuries and deaths have been recorded in aikido.
I was intrigued to search more about it in aikido journal but didn't find anything.Only some articles referring generally about accidents.
It is only natural that some injuries will occur and i believe that in every dojo they have a small record.
But deaths?
If true it's really sad to hear..
If anyone knows more...

Regards,

Τὰ πάντα ῥεῖ , What Flows, Is.
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Old 06-04-2007, 09:14 AM   #2
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Quote:
Antonis Paps wrote: View Post
I stumbled upon an article that was stating, that several serious injuries and deaths have been recorded in aikido.
Antonis,
Would you please post a link to that article?
I'd be interested in reading it.
Thank You.
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Old 06-04-2007, 09:29 AM   #3
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Fumiaki Shishida
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=8

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-04-2007, 09:30 AM   #4
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

At a seminar with Chiba Sensei last year, he was talking to us about the importance of why he has us do ukemi a certain way. He stated that he had seen some people get seriously hurt and a few died because of hitting their heads really hard. I guess it can happen. Think about the power these Shihans could throw with if they really wanted to.

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Old 06-04-2007, 09:37 AM   #5
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Hello Ricky,
Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Antonis,
Would you please post a link to that article?
I'd be interested in reading it.
Thank You.
Here it is:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...ighlight=death

There is also a link to a summary table at the bottom of the article. This article is freely available from Aikido Journal in its entirety for both subscribers and non-subscribers.

It's worth noting that many of the injuries and deaths occurred during the intensive summer or winter training seminars at Japanese university aikido clubs. From what I have heard about these events, there is a tremendous pressure on new students to "prove themselves" by training far past exhaustion.

I hope this is helpful.

Sincerely,

Jim
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:56 AM   #6
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Thanks for the link.
I saw several shihonage's on that chart. Gots to be extra careful with that one.
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Old 06-04-2007, 12:26 PM   #7
Edward
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Accidents can and will happen in any kind of physical activity. Most deaths I've heard of in aikido were caused by cancer which can either mean that using KI too much and too often affects the body cells, or that the aikidoka have lived long and healthy enough lives that they had to die of something

When I was practicing Judo, I had two brain concussions during randori because of bumping heads with my partner or other players around while falling. In Aikido I have received many heels on my head due to careless Nage who throw their Uke without looking first. That's why I always stand up immediately after a fall to minimize the chance.

I've personally only heard about 1 person who died during practice because he was thrown by his partner and his head hit the wall, he had a hemorragie. But that incident was years before I took up Aikido.

I'm sure Fujita Shihan Ukes are very well aware about the discomforts caused by his rather energetic Irimi Nage, especially to the back of the head. To my knowledge, none of them has ever died.

Just a few thoughts.
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Old 06-04-2007, 02:30 PM   #8
aikidoc
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

I'm not sure if the article George cites was the one I originally read or not but it was connected to the University system. Students were apparently slamming people real hard -shihonage. Also, I think less skilled students were involved. It was an intolerable situation. Accidents sometimes happen but deliberately seeing how hard you can slam someone is inexcuseable.

I teach responsibility for protecting your uke.
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Old 06-04-2007, 06:40 PM   #9
Big Dave
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

I think that another possibility for injury is when both the Nage and the Uke are beginners. If the throw is not what the Uke expects, or is just poorly executed, he/she may not have the ukemi to handle it.
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Old 06-04-2007, 07:04 PM   #10
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Quote:
David Peling wrote: View Post
I think that another possibility for injury is when both the Nage and the Uke are beginners. If the throw is not what the Uke expects, or is just poorly executed, he/she may not have the ukemi to handle it.
This is especially when accidents shouldn't happen. Instructors and teachers should be watching and taking care of new students like they were small children until they have the skills to handle more dangerous ukemi. If ukemi is good and the tori is taking care of their uke accidents like those on that list are unlikely to happen.

Chuck Clark
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:14 PM   #11
crbateman
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Unfortunately, many people learn the throw before they learn the fall. Also, exuberant nage wishing to improvise or show off often do not take into account the training level (or lack thereof) of their ukes. Randori can also get out of control. But it isn't a quilting bee. Accidents can and do happen, and the consequences are often serious. That's why self-control, safety and focus are so important. We all know this, yet we still sometimes falter. Sgt. Phil Esterhaus (Hill Street Blues) said it best: "Let's be careful out there..."
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:53 PM   #12
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, many people learn the throw before they learn the fall. Also, exuberant nage wishing to improvise or show off often do not take into account the training level (or lack thereof) of their ukes. Randori can also get out of control. But it isn't a quilting bee. Accidents can and do happen, and the consequences are often serious. That's why self-control, safety and focus are so important. We all know this, yet we still sometimes falter. Sgt. Phil Esterhaus (Hill Street Blues) said it best: "Let's be careful out there..."
Requiring self-control, safety, and focus from relative beginners is like requiring maturity and good judgement from nine year old children. It is the instructor's, teacher's, and senior sempai's responsibility to provide good education, proper examples in regular practice, and continually monitoring and emphasizing safe training habits.

Obviously we don't all know this if these sorts of behaviors as described above are happening and condoned as acceptable because "sometimes we falter." Responsibility comes from leadership and flows down the ranks by example and good education.

Chuck Clark
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:56 PM   #13
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

I think an important point to note is stated directly in the findings of Shihan Shishida in the article.

Factors that increased the possibility of life endangering injuries included training to the point of exhaustion and beyond, which places even the most skilled in ukemi in a place where the exhausted mind and body does not respond as it would under normal conditions.

I think this is important, especially for things like seminars where training may go on continuously for many hours beyond that of the typical class. Combine this with Tori who are overenthusiastic in executing their technique and even some of the most skilled Aikidoka in the way of ukemi may have difficulty imho.

It comes down to maturity and compassion on the point of Instructors to keep their members in check and folks who train with a partner whose life is literally in your hands. Proper training ethic is crucial to minimize the dangers imho.

Just my 2 cents.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 06-04-2007, 11:37 PM   #14
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Yes that is the link..
mm..but it goes only until 1985
Didn't see the chart before though
Thanks for the post,

Regards,

Τὰ πάντα ῥεῖ , What Flows, Is.
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:43 PM   #15
crbateman
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
Requiring self-control, safety, and focus from relative beginners is like requiring maturity and good judgement from nine year old children.
Yes Sensei, I completely agree. But I don't feel that one can be content to wait for this (for some) advanced behavior to simply happen with training, but rather should stress its importance early and repeatedly. The teacher can stimulate the learning early on, and let the continued training take care of the remembering.
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Old 06-06-2007, 09:53 AM   #16
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

I've only heard of one person crippled in aikido, and that, like the majority of injuries in aikido, occurred when someone fell on her after she'd been thrown.

Saotome injured his knee once when someone flew into him as he walked around the mat during a class.

Aside from these, the only injuries I've seen reoccurring on a regular basis were at a dojo where the instructor, perversely in my opinion, demanded that students do standing forward rolls in the first class.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 06-06-2007, 02:35 PM   #17
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post

Aside from these, the only injuries I've seen reoccurring on a regular basis were at a dojo where the instructor, perversely in my opinion, demanded that students do standing forward rolls in the first class.
Oh my god that is cruel...
they should shut him down

At which point of his training should a student...learn to breakfall?

Τὰ πάντα ῥεῖ , What Flows, Is.
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Old 06-06-2007, 05:44 PM   #18
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Quote:
Antonis Paps wrote: View Post
Oh my god that is cruel...
they should shut him down
Actually, he's quite famous. (and quite good...Could never understand this compunction of his, though...)

Quote:
At which point of his training should a student...learn to breakfall?
I start my beginners on them the first day (judo does). I personally breadfalls are safer than rolls; that's been my experience, anyway.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 06-07-2007, 01:58 PM   #19
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

I will second breakfalls safer than rolls. Worst first day breakfall injury at my judo dojo was knocked knees. I would rather knock my knees than separate a shoulder. There is something to be said for teaching rolls and breakfalls as something easy and fun rather than building them up in beginners minds as something difficult and dangerous.
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Old 06-11-2007, 04:43 AM   #20
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

I think its normal that there have been such accidents, I mean people can die because they fall from standing position. It can go from a brain concussion that is not that serious (althought the brain suffers some damage) to a brain hemorrage and death, and all from falling from a standing position. And if to that you add cervical damage then it shouldnt be that uncommon in an activity that involves falling. Also I see there are a lot of akidokas a little out of shape so this can also affect seriously knees and back.
One of the things I like about akido is that if there are lesions they are accidents and and not because someone is trying to beat the hell out of you or KO you, I mean I want to keep my cognitive abilities.
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Old 06-11-2007, 11:48 AM   #21
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

I'm actually curious as to how forward rolls can be dangerous... perhaps it's just that I picked them up so easily myself and still find them the most consistent and hard to do anything wrong with for me personally, or how I was taught or something (from crouching, where there doesn't seem to be much you can do wrong except roll over on your side), but I'm not really seeing it.

Does it have to do with doing it from a throw or do people just sometimes dive head first or make first contact with their shoulder or something?
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:24 PM   #22
crbateman
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I'm actually curious as to how forward rolls can be dangerous...
Done right, not really dangerous... Done wrong, that's another thing entirely. Anytime one's entire weight may be forced down on their head and/or neck, there is danger, and if you screw up and don't tuck your chin, that can certainly happen.
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Old 06-11-2007, 01:06 PM   #23
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

In that case, how is that less true of breakfalls? Is it just me or aren't rolls so so so so much easier to get right (maybe it just is me... maybe some people find it the other way around?) I've bumped my shoulders and back many times learning to breakfall, and my head at least once, but I don't recall ever having any forward roll related injury.

Edited to add that on the other hand, once it comes to being thrown, the kind of throws you can roll out of are different from the ones that you need to breakfall... so at that point maybe it's as much about that as anything.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 06-11-2007 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 06-11-2007, 02:21 PM   #24
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
In that case, how is that less true of breakfalls?
I didn't say that was less true of breakfalls. I was responding to your statement that you couldn't see how rolls could be dangerous... Breakfalls can be dangerous for all the same reasons as rolls. There is also the additional risk after a breakfall that nage may fall on you, as you are still in close proximity. Rollouts usually take you out of range.

Last edited by crbateman : 06-11-2007 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 06-11-2007, 02:48 PM   #25
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Re: Serious injuries or deaths in aikido

OK, got it.
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