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Old 06-07-2007, 03:01 PM   #26
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Technique of running around nage

Quote:
Uke has an active role in the technique
Absolutely

Quote:
and is responsible for blending with nage's technique.
I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. A) my own instructor always asks "what is this 'blending'??" and B) even if it is awase that you are looking for, nage should be doing it...not uke. Otherwise, where is the challenge?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 06-07-2007, 05:03 PM   #27
senshincenter
 
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Re: Technique of running around nage

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
I don't think the posted clip of Seishiro Endo is a good example of "running around nage". His uke's are extremely nice and over-responsive, but they are responding to being physically unbalanced by Endo. They are not (and that's the topic of this thread, I think) running around nage because they are holding nage's wrist and nage is turning. This does indeed happen quite a lot and it's a poor excuse for aikido.
What Endo is doing is quite good, his uke's are just trying really hard to make him look good in too much of a puppet/dummy-like fashion. And perhaps the teachers who prefer the "running around" are just doing their best to do aikido like Endo does. Unfortunately, visual emulation is a dead end; without analysis, thought and understanding you'll get nowhere.
Well there are two ways of looking at this from my point of view:

1) The video IS demonstrating an "uke running around nage"

or,

2) The video is demonstrating the very thing I meant when I said, "uke running around nage".

Either way, the video is relative and holds as an example of what I was being critical of from a martial perspective.

As I said, my experience is that most folks around the world train this way. If if that majority was silent here, it has to be because they either do not want to acknowledge that they train that way (which I doubt), or they do not see what they do as what I was being critical of (here's where my money lies).

Again, please let me say, I understand that there is a specificity to what we are seeing, as there always is with anything we do, but at the same time there are underlying training assumptions that allow for any given specificity. Therefore, one may very well not always do these kinds of things, in these kinds of manners, but one will, for example, always demonstrate the same underlying understanding of kuzushi, of irimi, or groundedness, of the rear-foot, of nage and uke's role, etc. This was my point in the other thread from which this one branched off. This is why even when the uke does not run around the nage, we still see in nage's opted-for tactical response the same basic understandings that supported such a training culture. As I said in the other thread, this is why the nage's irimi does not resemble that of an irimi from someone else that would never do this type of training (i.e. have uke run around him/her).

That said, regardless of what all else one supposedly does, if we can grant that in spite of what I just said, this "running around" stuff is not made more understandable and/or more martially viable because of something else one may or may not do or by how much less one can actually do of this when they are doing it but are not on stage. From that perspective, for me, I think it is more respectable (i.e. it makes more sense to me) if someone does this kind of training and says, "Yeah, it's not martial. It's about two folks looking to harmonize with each other - fluctuating naturally between yin and yang energies as their sensitivity allows for and inspires." In that sense, this video, for me, is more understandable - much more than simply saying "well, we do more," or "well, we are being overly-polite to make one look good here - normally we do less of this.":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OqMLzVKAJs

dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 06-07-2007, 05:31 PM   #28
Janet Rosen
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Re: Technique of running around nage

(sigh) since I"m the person whose posting inspired this thread I guess I should chime in...I cannot watch videos on line because I live on dialups.

The technique in which I found myself running around nage was indeed an ushiro attack. I have, as nage, had ukes run around me, while I stood there nonplussed and rather shocked (but with a very stable center, grinning) watching them, on what was supposed to be a simple katatetori iriminage (from the front).

In the case of ushiro it was by no means a slow training simulation. The very thing that made it so silly to me was that nage was toweringly taller than me and as I grabbed the first wrist he was turning so fast that the only was I could try to get the second wrist was by forgetting about "attack" or his center or anything other than literally sprinting around him. This was not a one-time event. This was the preferred scenario.
I did not then, and do not to this day, understand what meaningful lesson I was supposed to take from it. I maintain that only bad pointless habits would have been ingrained had I continued that exercise.
In the case of my running ukes....working w/ a junior student, I made my wrist available, it was grabbed and the uke immediately started off in a circle around me, like a burro around a mill. I stopped him and we started again. He did it again. I asked him what he thought he was doing. He told me he thought he had been taught that he's supposed to do that. Fortunately it was a dojo where it was acceptable for sempai to correct kohei, so I did my best to simply (few words, hands on example) demonstrate attacking nage's center.

Feel free to take my comments with many grains of salt. I make no claims to being an expert in aikido. At this point I can't train in aikido. Just reporting on what I was asked to do many yrs ago, and how it felt to do it.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 06-07-2007, 05:54 PM   #29
MM
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Re: Technique of running around nage

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Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
Impossible for me to say since Koichi Tohei Sensei disagreed with it and would state that it came out of misunderstanding and he taught that it was an incorrect practice. So I have never had to think of any justification for it.
Hmmm ... would you happen to know what the misunderstanding was? That's really interesting and I'd never heard it before.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 06-08-2007, 01:08 AM   #30
jss
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Re: Technique of running around nage

Can someone please post a link to the thread fron which this one branched off? That would clear up a lot of the confusion as to what this thread is about.

Thanks,
Joep
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:56 PM   #31
jss
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Re: Technique of running around nage

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David Valadez wrote: View Post
Well there are two ways of looking at this from my point of view:
1) The video IS demonstrating an "uke running around nage"
or,
2) The video is demonstrating the very thing I meant when I said, "uke running around nage".
Thanks for encouraging me to read better and think harder.

Quote:
As I said, my experience is that most folks around the world train this way. If if that majority was silent here, it has to be because they either do not want to acknowledge that they train that way (which I doubt), or they do not see what they do as what I was being critical of (here's where my money lies).
I regularly train with uke's that run around me, but I know it and am critical of it. (When a technique becomes too easy, I ask myself is this me or is it my uke? Most of the time it was my uke.)
Basically I like two kinds of ukes:
1) Ukes that as in the first (Endo) clip attack and then try to maintain their posture, but nothing more.
2) Ukes that attack and keep trying to regain a position from which they can launch new attack, but this without actively trying to reverse the technique (that's no longer an uke, but a sparring partner).
As one advances in aikdio, one should train less and less with ukes in mode 1 and more and more with ukes in mode 2. Unfortunately, a lot of training is done with ukes in mode 0 (the run around you-type), which only makes sense for beginning beginners.

Quote:
Therefore, one may very well not always do these kinds of things, in these kinds of manners, but one will, for example, always demonstrate the same underlying understanding of kuzushi, of irimi, or groundedness, of the rear-foot, of nage and uke's role, etc.
Great point and well phrased. Thank you.
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