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Old 06-07-2007, 02:58 PM   #1
charyuop
Dojo: Ponca Aikikai
Location: Ponca City, Oklahoma
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Yokomenuchi eplaination please

I want to say immediately I am not asking which one is correct, because I am sure every Sensei has his own method to teach.

When Sensei taught me Yokomenuchi he placed a bokken in front of him and he told me to hit him with a Shomenuchi. From there I learnt that according to the distance either I slide in with a very little angle and then step drawing my line through Nage and deliver the Shomenuchi or if closer I just step with a little side angle drawing my line through Nage and deliver the Shomenuchi (meaning in both cases strike starting from top of my head).

I have seen in many videos that some people deliver a Yokomenuchi stepping streight into Nage delivering a strike starting from the side of Uke's head and landing to the side of Nage's head.

Now my question. In both cases the final destination of the strike remains the side of the Hgae's head, but the position of Uke's body is very different. Will this deeply effect the technique to apply?
(Sorry if a beginner's question, but that's what I am hee hee).
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:27 PM   #2
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Yokomenuchi eplaination please

It will definately affect the nature of the technique, though all of the same techniques can be done...the amount of reaction time to learning the path of the strike as well. I personally prefer starting yokomenuchi from the forehead, and I am most familiar with that method. I have seen others...for what those instructors wish to accomplish, I assume it does just fine.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:59 PM   #3
ElizabethCastor
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi eplaination please

Quote:
I have seen in many videos that some people deliver a Yokomenuchi stepping streight into Nage delivering a strike starting from the side of Uke's head and landing to the side of Nage's head.

Now my question. In both cases the final destination of the strike remains the side of the Hgae's head, but the position of Uke's body is very different. Will this deeply effect the technique to apply?
Ummm, okay I'll try to take a stab at this one (pardon the pun)

From my understanding.... the MOTION OF THE ARM/sword in shomen-uchi and yokomen-uchi are the same; that is the strike begins at the TOP OF THE HEAD. This is or two reasons.

ONE: the strike has the optimum power of your hips driving it through uke (think about the sideways motion stike... almost baseball bat in its style... its driven by the shoulder and back muscles, which is not as effective)
TWO: the basball bat style strike is pretty easy to read and since its not centered from the hips its easy to counter

Now, the MOTION OF THE BODY is where the difference is seen. In my experience, SHOMEN-UCHI is direct... where uke steps in a straight line (as you described) to deliver the stike to the shomen (front of face). While YOKOMEN-UCHI begins from the back leg... uke takes a step off line as the striking hand raises. Think of a tiny tenkan... .Now that you are "outside" the strike lands but this time its on the yokomen or side of the face or temple. When we practice yokomen-uchi we aim to align with the diagonal collars of the uniform.

I hope that this info is helpful... and again this explination comes from my experience. I reserve the right to be wrong as you said above..."every Sensei has his own method to teach" and each student thier own style.

Elizabeth
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:59 AM   #4
xuzen
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi eplaination please

Quote:
Gianluigi Pizzuto wrote: View Post
I want to say immediately I am not asking which one is correct, because I am sure every Sensei has his own method to teach.

When Sensei taught me Yokomenuchi he placed a bokken in front of him and he told me to hit him with a Shomenuchi. From there I learnt that according to the distance either I slide in with a very little angle and then step drawing my line through Nage and deliver the Shomenuchi or if closer I just step with a little side angle drawing my line through Nage and deliver the Shomenuchi (meaning in both cases strike starting from top of my head).

I have seen in many videos that some people deliver a Yokomenuchi stepping streight into Nage delivering a strike starting from the side of Uke's head and landing to the side of Nage's head.

Now my question. In both cases the final destination of the strike remains the side of the Hgae's head, but the position of Uke's body is very different. Will this deeply effect the technique to apply?
(Sorry if a beginner's question, but that's what I am hee hee).
Let's get back to basics.

YOKO - Side
MEN - Head
UCHI - Strike/Hit

Therefore YOKO-MEN-UCHI is hitting the head sideways.

Whether your body move to an angle or not to hit... both are still YOKO-MEN-UCHI. Aim is to hit side of head.

To answer your question, final position of tori relative to uke will depend on whether if there are any pointy metallic or wooden object hindering your way or not. Either way, both are still YOKO-MEN-UCHI.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 06-08-2007, 01:28 AM   #5
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi eplaination please

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
It will definately affect the nature of the technique, though all of the same techniques can be done...the amount of reaction time to learning the path of the strike as well. I personally prefer starting yokomenuchi from the forehead, and I am most familiar with that method. I have seen others...for what those instructors wish to accomplish, I assume it does just fine.

Best,
Ron
I agree with Ron. I do it his way now. I did learn it the other way at first, but coming from the forehead is more in line with a sword cut.

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Old 06-08-2007, 04:57 AM   #6
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi eplaination please

Hello
For what it is worth here is my take on that.

I would say it really depends how martial you want it to be or what is the purpose of the exercise. You do not have to do it one way, it depends what you want to get out of it.
My understanding of yokomen is that we want to hit the high value target on the side.
(Temples, ear, inferior maxillary and side of the neck) so we can really afford to make the strike becoming yokomen later in the strike.
So that our opponent does not know if it is shomen or yokomen straight away

If we go back to sword, striking with a strike equivalent to yokomen starting from the side, leaves our centre line totally open to a vertical cut.
That vertical cut is safe because he just have to do a normal step and he will have create enough angle
To add time to our strike to hit him.
And control our ams with his strike to the head, basically stopping our blow.

And with empty hand our opponent can reproduce all that by delivering a straight strike to our face whilst absorbing the Yokomen and using the same body movement as if ha had a sword

Now if you tart that yokomen with the point of the sword or the hand on your centre line.
The above counter his not that appealing anymore.

As well striking yokomen from the side will in 99.9 % of the case result in us striking outside our space. (ie over extending, unbalanced, having the shoulder in font of the hips)
This make tenchin back and grabbing the wrist a very viable option for our oppoenet, as if we try to subtract our hand or retaliate effectively, we will need to rebalance in some way.
So I would say it is easier to give ourselves away striking yokomen like that .
So I think it is quite convenient to help kinonogare or to help isolating the "ki" aspect of a given exercise.

If you strike yokomen starting from the top of the head, you much more likely to stay within your own space (or still in posture), which can make tenchin back and grabbing he wrist a task on the par with butterfly catching with bare hands.
I think that way of doing it is more convenient for the martial aspect. The opponent surrenders nothing to us, we have to take his balance, posture and ability to retaliate away from him

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 06-08-2007, 07:23 AM   #7
charyuop
Dojo: Ponca Aikikai
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Re: Yokomenuchi eplaination please

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello
For what it is worth here is my take on that.

I would say it really depends how martial you want it to be or what is the purpose of the exercise. You do not have to do it one way, it depends what you want to get out of it.
My understanding of yokomen is that we want to hit the high value target on the side.
(Temples, ear, inferior maxillary and side of the neck) so we can really afford to make the strike becoming yokomen later in the strike.
So that our opponent does not know if it is shomen or yokomen straight away

If we go back to sword, striking with a strike equivalent to yokomen starting from the side, leaves our centre line totally open to a vertical cut.
That vertical cut is safe because he just have to do a normal step and he will have create enough angle
To add time to our strike to hit him.
And control our ams with his strike to the head, basically stopping our blow.

And with empty hand our opponent can reproduce all that by delivering a straight strike to our face whilst absorbing the Yokomen and using the same body movement as if ha had a sword

Now if you tart that yokomen with the point of the sword or the hand on your centre line.
The above counter his not that appealing anymore.

As well striking yokomen from the side will in 99.9 % of the case result in us striking outside our space. (ie over extending, unbalanced, having the shoulder in font of the hips)
This make tenchin back and grabbing the wrist a very viable option for our oppoenet, as if we try to subtract our hand or retaliate effectively, we will need to rebalance in some way.
So I would say it is easier to give ourselves away striking yokomen like that .
So I think it is quite convenient to help kinonogare or to help isolating the "ki" aspect of a given exercise.

If you strike yokomen starting from the top of the head, you much more likely to stay within your own space (or still in posture), which can make tenchin back and grabbing he wrist a task on the par with butterfly catching with bare hands.
I think that way of doing it is more convenient for the martial aspect. The opponent surrenders nothing to us, we have to take his balance, posture and ability to retaliate away from him

phil
Thanx Phil. With my question I didn't mean to start a discussion on which way it was the correct way to do the Yokomenuchi, but the difference. As Ron said it does affect the technique, but I couldn't see how.
The way you put it out it is to me very clear. I can see by the way you pictured it how in one way Uke gives away part of his center from the beginning, while in the other way it is completely to Nage to take away the center.
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Old 06-08-2007, 08:38 AM   #8
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi eplaination please

Quote:
Gianluigi Pizzuto wrote: View Post
Thanx Phil. With my question I didn't mean to start a discussion on which way it was the correct way to do the Yokomenuchi, but the difference. As Ron said it does affect the technique, but I couldn't see how.
The way you put it out it is to me very clear. I can see by the way you pictured it how in one way Uke gives away part of his center from the beginning, while in the other way it is completely to Nage to take away the center.
hahaa my mother was right i knew i would be usefull once in my life.
thanks, probably more senior people will make even clearer.

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 06-08-2007, 10:50 AM   #9
cguzik
Location: Tulsa, OK
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Re: Yokomenuchi eplaination please

Gianluigi,

We have not met, but I am sure we will... I will make it up for a Saturday practice one of these days.

Here is how I think of it: the horizontal component of the strike can range anywhere from zero to ninety degrees, where zero degrees would be straight down from directly overhead and ninety degrees would be a flat, horizontal, circular strike.

I have seen yokomenuchi executed at both ends of this range. Keeping the arc of the strike of constant radius and completely circular, as the horizontal component approaches ninety degrees, uke gives tori a flatter, more horizontal circle, which makes entering and taking the center correspondingly more straightforward.

This is mitigated by uke changing the arc such that it is no longer a circle, but rather an arc that straightens out as it moves, leaving only a very tight circle at the beginning of the movement. Done with proper maai this can be just as hard to enter into -- perhaps harder -- as the purely vertical strike.

With this understanding, I relate the (tight) horizontal version with the type of shomen uchi in which uke delivers a quick impact strike to his target, and the downward vertical cut to the larger cutting-through version. This is because for the tight version of yokomenuchi, the body mechanics do not readily lend themselves to a big follow-through -- but for a strike to the temple one doesn't need that. However if one is to cleave one's partner in two, something of a vertical component is useful..

As far as these two variations of shomen uchi go, my understanding is that technically speaking, the cutting through version is kiri oroshi (dropping cut) and that the quick impact version is more appropriately called shomen uchi. That said, I know we tend to practice the cutting through version more often and that it does not matter what it is called in the end.


Best,

Chris

Last edited by cguzik : 06-08-2007 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:14 PM   #10
charyuop
Dojo: Ponca Aikikai
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Re: Yokomenuchi eplaination please

Hi Chris,
I look forward to meeting you. I have met so far some people from Tulsa and they are all excellent Aikidoka, good people to learn from.
At the moment I am out of the mat coz of a surgery, but I am working my way back to practice as fast as I can...respecting reasonable times (hee hee, that's why I am too much on the forum, can't practice at home).
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