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Old 05-30-2007, 08:10 AM   #51
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Value of atemi

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I don't believe that one can say that an attacker is "off balance" by virtue of his attack. A competent attacker can be quite balanced, in fact a good attack requires being balanced and centered.

It is, however, impossible to attack another without creating a suki or "opening". Using the principle of "irimi" we use that opening to occupy the space which the attacker wishes occupy in order to complete his attack.The action of the irimi will serve to cause the attacker to disrupt his balance.

In other words, you must take the attacker's balance. If he is competent he will not just give it to you. There is nothing inherently "off-balance" about an attack, no matter how erroneous the thinking may be behind the violent action.
ya sure, i agree. but there is an inherent inbalance in the musubi with natutal principle when one has the mind to attack. you could probably trace this chemically. I happen to perceive it and feel it with my eyes. I simply do. I can read imbalance with a remarkable degree of perception. like reading a book.I can even 'hear the story' .
Boxers entering into a ring are off balance, in a particular sense, but they are both in agreement about their sport, so the playing ground equals again. The imbalance occurs in the psyche or the body or the strategy and then one of them succumbs to the other.
fight over.
I'm a fan of boxing . I'm a fan of sports. I'm a fan of imbalancing games. I'm a fan of natural principles. together my observations have culminated in this process for viewing and understanding balance (or the lack there of) and in my experience and application and spiritual training this observation and process has remained steady and true. It is an experience that many other people have not yet experienced or articulated and that can make translation arduos.
O'Sensei said that to have the mind to attack one is already defeated. To have the mind to attack is to be outside of universal accord. My experiences tend to back this up. That's all.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:10 AM   #52
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Value of atemi

Quote:
Edward Karaa wrote: View Post
Quote:
George Ledyard wrote:
I don't believe that one can say that an attacker is "off balance" by virtue of his attack. A competent attacker can be quite balanced, in fact a good attack requires being balanced and centered.
It is, however, impossible to attack another without creating a suki or "opening". Using the principle of "irimi" we use that opening to occupy the space which the attacker wishes occupy in order to complete his attack.The action of the irimi will serve to cause the attacker to disrupt his balance.
...
In other words, you must take the attacker's balance. If he is competent he will not just give it to you. There is nothing inherently "off-balance" about an attack, no matter how erroneous the thinking may be behind the violent action
IMHO, an attacker is not off balance by virtue of his attack, but he is off balance because he expected to hit a certain target, and the target vanished at the moment of impact.
I would put it this way. I have come to this understanding of the relationship between the attack process and the action of aikido. It helps me, so it may help others -- or -- if it is thoroughly and soundly trashed -- it will certainly help me to be corrected in any error of understanding.

So -- here you go.

An attacker with an apparent opening is looking for a certain sequence of physical cues/events.

1) Grounding 2) Launch 3) Connection 4) Resistance/impact

In a well-trained person these blend almost seamlessly (as do the kuzushi-tsukuri-kake progression). Any interruption in the sequence reverts back to the beginning, and commences a secondary attack.

A trained person does not lose balance when they attack, but they do lose their grounding. They are using that stability platform to create their energy, and cannot (without reversing their energy) pull back into ground and increase stability while siumultaneously expending it. Their balance is not actually sacrificed -- but a degree of stability is converted into the strike -- in rough proportion to the amount of power committed to the strike. I would characterize this condition as prior to kuzushi (balance breaking) in the kuzushi-tsukuri-kake progession.

If Grounding is interrupted no effective attack will be launched, -- it will have little power behind it.

If Launch of the attack is interrupted then it will not make connection to the opponents structure.

If Connection is interrupted it will have little or no impact or create much resistance in the opponents structure.

If Resistance/impact is interrupted damage to the target is reduced or eliminated.

Most arts rely on the interruption of these process of at one or stage of the progression. Aikido, it seems to me, does not interrupt any given stage in its functions ( as other arts often do) but can act in ways that defeat the progression as a whole --- by essentially continuing or extending any given stage -- rather than stopping or interrupting it. Stopping an attack at any stage merely resets for a secondary attack. Aikido's goal is to defeat the possibility of attack, and the progression is not stopped -- the attack simply evolves into something impossible and the progression ceases of its own accord.

A most singular way to accomplish this is by defeating the opponent's Grounding. This requires a very coherent structure in order to consistently enter and completely occupy the space in connection to the attacker that he needs to Ground in order to launch an effective attack. It seems to me that most of the erstwhile "internal power" debate is directed to this element (or to the last one -- at the point of impact). My first teacher calls this using "KI on the downside. As I view it, it is more critical to the first and fourth stages, while what he calls "Ki on the up side" is more critical to the middle two.

At the first stage, Grounding, if a person is already grounded, one can remove their groundedness, without necessarily taking their balance, as such. The state of balance is converted from a subcritical stable form to a supercritically stable form, like balancing the ball in the bottom of a bowl versus on the top of another ball. At that point kuzushi can easily be accomplished by moving them just slightly off the top of the ball. Judo tends to elide these two functions into one action of kuzushi, whereas, in my view of aikido they seem more distinct, in part because we are trying to draw out the process, making the distinction more observable.

But Aikido functions at every other stage as well. The critical element is achieving connection at some stage of the attack progression and then maintaining that connection to continue, extend and convert it without actually interrupting the action at the stage at which it occurs. The next step in the progression is at least delayed and may or may not occur, but since the progression is not actually stopped, it does not instinctively reset to another attack.

Unlike the attacker who needs to Ground in order to Launch, the Aikidoka only needs critically coherent structure, (strong internal structure or internal power, in the language of some) to occupy that ground WHILE in connection to an attacker who is seeking to ground at the same time in that place. If he is connecting at the periphery of the attacker's expression of power, (in the middle two stages of Launch and Connection), then mobility and thus supercritical stability (highly responsive) is more important than the grounded coherence of structure, and subcritical stability (innately restoring tendency).

At the stage of Launch, the aikidoka needs to be in the line of the launch to invite it (solving a part of the Grounding stability problem), but not in line at the point of connection. Many describe this as "getting off the line." But the element often missed is the connection that must occur to make this aikido instead of mere evasion. Evasion just interrupts the launch -- and thereby merely resets the attack machine to the secondary attack. Achieving connection WHILE removing oneself from the line of Launch moves the line as much as it moves you, all without stopping its intended progression.

At the stage of Connection, the aikidoka and the attacker can agree on the goal but not on the trajectory in arriving at or departing from that point. Connection can be achieved without resulting impact or resistance to the attack, and without defeating the launch, and as long as the Connection is maintained with perceived possibility of an incipient impact, the sequence of attack is not interrupted and the attack machine does not reset. Most kokyu nage operates well in this area. Because connection is the indispensable part of dealing with attack at every stage -- this stage is fundamental to understanding the root function of the art, and its emphasis on mobility tends to color the perception of the uses of "KI on the downside."

Lastly, there is the Resistance/impact stage, this is where the connection and the body structure skills are simultaneously most critical. The difference of position between effective impact and no effective impact is literally a matter of a finger's breadth or less. Any error of form in receiving the energy in that connection will result in impact felt.

If you allow the Grounding, Launch and Connection to occur without significant disruption one can convert the energy of the attack connecting in irimi-tenkan to his structure, just as he is trying to convert it into the impact resistance in the target's structure. Like the first stage, this requires the most coherent body structure as well high sensitivity to perform, and the results are among the most dramatic displays in this art.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 05-30-2007, 10:07 AM   #53
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Value of atemi

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
ya sure, i agree. but there is an inherent inbalance in the musubi with natutal principle when one has the mind to attack. you could probably trace this chemically. I happen to perceive it and feel it with my eyes. I simply do. I can read imbalance with a remarkable degree of perception. like reading a book.I can even 'hear the story' .
There are different "balances". One is internal, the other is physical and largely external. No question that someone who is violent is not "in balance" with the flow of change around him. Violence is essentially about trying to force some element of the system to be other than it is. That isn't the same as physical balance which is largely about proper use of the body and physical conditioning.

Quote:
Boxers entering into a ring are off balance, in a particular sense, but they are both in agreement about their sport, so the playing ground equals again. The imbalance occurs in the psyche or the body or the strategy and then one of them succumbs to the other.
fight over.
Once again, I understand what is being said about there being an "imbalance" in any kind of fighting. The problem is that for most "spiritual" types, their ability to perceive the balance or imbalance is completely disconnected from their ability to manifest that internal balance which they have achieved spiritually in the material realm of physical technique.

Quote:
I'm a fan of boxing . I'm a fan of sports. I'm a fan of imbalancing games. I'm a fan of natural principles. together my observations have culminated in this process for viewing and understanding balance (or the lack there of) and in my experience and application and spiritual training this observation and process has remained steady and true. It is an experience that many other people have not yet experienced or articulated and that can make translation arduous.
O'Sensei said that to have the mind to attack one is already defeated. To have the mind to attack is to be outside of universal accord. My experiences tend to back this up. That's all.
To have the mind of attack one is only "already defeated" if ones opponent understands "aiki", both in an internal sense and also in the external, physical sense. There are plenty of people who are violent and merely exterminate their opponent. There have been many very spiritually advanced folks who were killed by spiritual dolts.

The concept that one is "already defeated" is dependent on the aggressor being up against an opponent who is in a state of connection with the larger "universal accord" as you put it (i.e. connected to the whole to the point at which they simply have no fear of an encounter and can maintain the sense of connection even when they are threatened.) It also requires that this person has trained and has mastered the techniques of self defense on a level in which these techniques function according to that "accord" and finally, that this same person has done enough physical training that his physical structure can successfully manifest these techniques against an opponent with his own skills and strong intention (Dan Hardin, Mike Sigman, and Rob John posts elsewhere).

Perceiving an imbalance, being able to see how someone is "open" is only one component in a larger whole when it comes to the martial interaction. It's quite possible to perceive all sorts of things about an opponent and still not be able to do anything about it due to ones own lack skill. It is quite possible to be in the highest state of connection with an opponent when he knocks you out.

So the idea that an opponent is defeated in the instant that he forms the intent to attack, while true, is nothing more than an unverifiable theory for most practitioners because they don't have the skills which O-Sensei had to be able to manifest the truth of the theory in reality.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 05-30-2007 at 10:09 AM.

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Old 05-30-2007, 10:32 AM   #54
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Value of atemi

Excellent post George. Very well grounded.

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-30-2007, 10:45 AM   #55
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Re: Value of atemi

I agree with Ron. It is easy to theorize and talk about this sort of thing but unless we "test" ourselves/each other appropriately the real thing is often very elusive.

Good job George, very well done.

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Old 05-30-2007, 10:52 AM   #56
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Re: Value of atemi

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
I agree with Ron. It is easy to theorize and talk about this sort of thing but unless we "test" ourselves/each other appropriately the real thing is often very elusive.

Good job George, very well done.
Hmm.. "test ourselves" what a great and novel idea for some. Getting back to the "Meaning of Competition" thread again.

Brilliant post George. It was a pleasure to read.
Quote:
It is quite possible to be in the highest state of connection with an opponent when he knocks you out.
That was a gem.
Domo.
LC

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Old 05-30-2007, 11:32 AM   #57
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Re: Value of atemi

Nice Analysis, Erick.

I would say that the attack can be disrupted at the grounding/launching stage by an omote/irimi action, while an ura/tenkan action is more appropriate at the connection/impact stage.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I would put it this way. I have come to this understanding of the relationship between the attack process and the action of aikido. It helps me, so it may help others -- or -- if it is thoroughly and soundly trashed -- it will certainly help me to be corrected in any error of understanding.
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:39 AM   #58
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Re: Value of atemi

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
The way I read that comment suggests that the attacker overextends his balance because he expects to hit the target. Is that what you mean?
I mean that every target presents some kind of resistance, be it a wooden door or a human body or a pile of bricks. I believe the amount of power put in a strike is proportional to the amount of resistance the attacker expects to receive. When the encountered resistance is nil, there must be some kind of loss of balance even by the most experienced martial artists.

A Karateka can hit the air while performing a Kata with great power without loosing balance because he did not expect resistance, but the same Karateka if he's trying to break a pile of bricks will surely loose his balance if the bricks were to suddenly disappear just before the moment of impact.

But I could be wrong.
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:49 AM   #59
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Re: Value of atemi

Quote:
Edward Karaa wrote: View Post
I mean that every target presents some kind of resistance, be it a wooden door or a human body or a pile of bricks. I believe the amount of power put in a strike is proportional to the amount of resistance the attacker expects to receive. When the encountered resistance is nil, there must be some kind of loss of balance even by the most experienced martial artists.

A Karateka can hit the air while performing a Kata with great power without loosing balance because he did not expect resistance, but the same Karateka if he's trying to break a pile of bricks will surely loose his balance if the bricks were to suddenly disappear just before the moment of impact.

But I could be wrong.
It really depends on the attack. Such loss of balance could be useful in a setup. This is why many arts such as mauy thai and boxing throw combos instead of the one shot one kill mentality in many asian arts. For example, I could throw a hard leg kick and miss, but you would be careful to enter because a back fist might be coming your way. Another example is I might throw a less powerful leg kick to setup a punch such as an overhand right. I do not care if the kick lands or not, it has enough power to cause some minor damage, but its real purpose is to allow me to enter into punching range while keeping your strikes at bay.

Another example would be in judo. I grab to pull. Every grab is a pull. I have been told by a few japanese jj guys and aikido guys that grabs are pushes, but I really feel they are pulls. If you move I lose no balance. If you enter I lose no balance, and I am fully prepared to move with you and continue to attempt to take your balance. This is because I am not reaching out to make the grab. I move my body to the proper distance to make the grab work. This is where a good strike could upset my balance. I grab you step in with the pull preventing your loss of balance. As you step in you strike to my face. Had you not struck I would probably adjust with no effort and continue my attempt to break balance and throw. But with the strike I can not continue my grab and protect my face. I have to choose one. My will allow you a chance to break my balance, either though striking my skull, or a technique based on my raising the hands to block and moving my head. Of course you will need to keep moving as I circle out of there.

Again this is chessboard martial arts, a way of working I hate. I prefer to make my points by encouraging sparing. But the main point I want to make is that not every strike is designed or meant to break a brick. A jab doesn't have to knock your block off to be very effective, it just has to make the opening you need for that big shot.

- Don
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Old 05-30-2007, 01:17 PM   #60
MM
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Re: Value of atemi

Quote:
Edward Karaa wrote: View Post
I mean that every target presents some kind of resistance, be it a wooden door or a human body or a pile of bricks. I believe the amount of power put in a strike is proportional to the amount of resistance the attacker expects to receive. When the encountered resistance is nil, there must be some kind of loss of balance even by the most experienced martial artists.

A Karateka can hit the air while performing a Kata with great power without loosing balance because he did not expect resistance, but the same Karateka if he's trying to break a pile of bricks will surely loose his balance if the bricks were to suddenly disappear just before the moment of impact.

But I could be wrong.
I take the opposite view. A good martial artist will have no loss of balance on any atemi, strike or action. When I hear people talk about "no resistance in Aikido", I actually view it as what you define above. That there is no internal resistance inside oneself. Which means, that when you go to hit something, you do not build up resistance inside in proportion to expectations. That's what I take the meaning of "no resistance in Aikido" to mean.

And from personal experience, I have felt what it's like to get hit by someone who doesn't lose their balance whether an object is there or not. On a not so personal experience, I imagine that what Ushiro sensei does in karate is a lot like hitting without losing balance or having resistance built up internally.

I veiw good atemi as a disruption to another person's structure without oneself losing structure.

Mediocre atemi is a disruption to another person's structure but with oneself losing some aspect of structure.

Bad atemi is no disruption to another person's structure and oneself losing some structure.

IMO,
Mark
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Old 05-30-2007, 01:21 PM   #61
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Re: Value of atemi

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A good martial artist will have no loss of balance on any atemi, strike or action.
Ahh...the perfect martial artist. Haven't met him/her yet.
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Old 05-31-2007, 07:29 AM   #62
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Re: Value of atemi

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Ahh...the perfect martial artist. Haven't met him/her yet.
I don't want to speak for Mark Murray, but I don't think that's at all what he was saying.

For my money, assuming that someone is competent and determined (unless obvious signs point otherwise) is the safest way to go (definitely in a real altercation and for many situations in the dojo).

In any of those instances, I'd much rather expect competence and be proven wrong than the converse . . .
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Old 05-31-2007, 03:58 PM   #63
tarik
 
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Re: Value of atemi

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Ahh...the perfect martial artist. Haven't met him/her yet.
I saw the word 'good', not the word perfect, and I agree with Mr. Murray. A good striker seldom loses their physical balance when striking, however, an opportunity certainly exists for it to be taken; just not when you're playing their game.

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Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:07 PM   #64
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Value of atemi

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
There are different "balances". One is internal, the other is physical and largely external. No question that someone who is violent is not "in balance" with the flow of change around him. Violence is essentially about trying to force some element of the system to be other than it is. That isn't the same as physical balance which is largely about proper use of the body and physical conditioning.

Once again, I understand what is being said about there being an "imbalance" in any kind of fighting. The problem is that for most "spiritual" types, their ability to perceive the balance or imbalance is completely disconnected from their ability to manifest that internal balance which they have achieved spiritually in the material realm of physical technique.

To have the mind of attack one is only "already defeated" if ones opponent understands "aiki", both in an internal sense and also in the external, physical sense. There are plenty of people who are violent and merely exterminate their opponent. There have been many very spiritually advanced folks who were killed by spiritual dolts.

The concept that one is "already defeated" is dependent on the aggressor being up against an opponent who is in a state of connection with the larger "universal accord" as you put it (i.e. connected to the whole to the point at which they simply have no fear of an encounter and can maintain the sense of connection even when they are threatened.) It also requires that this person has trained and has mastered the techniques of self defense on a level in which these techniques function according to that "accord" and finally, that this same person has done enough physical training that his physical structure can successfully manifest these techniques against an opponent with his own skills and strong intention (Dan Hardin, Mike Sigman, and Rob John posts elsewhere).

Perceiving an imbalance, being able to see how someone is "open" is only one component in a larger whole when it comes to the martial interaction. It's quite possible to perceive all sorts of things about an opponent and still not be able to do anything about it due to ones own lack skill. It is quite possible to be in the highest state of connection with an opponent when he knocks you out.

So the idea that an opponent is defeated in the instant that he forms the intent to attack, while true, is nothing more than an unverifiable theory for most practitioners because they don't have the skills which O-Sensei had to be able to manifest the truth of the theory in reality.
I'm only speaking for myself.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 06-01-2007, 12:25 AM   #65
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Value of atemi

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I'm only speaking for myself.
Hi Jennifer,
I don't understand this last comment...
- George

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Old 06-08-2007, 08:05 AM   #66
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Value of atemi

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Hi Jennifer,
I don't understand this last comment...
- George
Hi George-

It seems that sometimes words get in the way. For that reason I train in silence and let aikido speak for itself through my training. Here, words can lead down strange paths and it seems to me, in this case, they have. Like aikido at times, the story is in between the lines.

I feel the points you brought up are excellent in a general sense. The points you brought up don't relate to what I need to newly incorporate into my practice, although I understand they were inspired by my post. Along with many amazing teachers, I have been in the process of training in these "key" concepts for my entire life. I've met these lessons in many forms and many voices. Your points are beautiful and good reminders.

Motomichi Anno Shihan (8th Dan Dojo-Cho, Kumano Juku Dojo, Shingu; for those who don't know this incredible human being) my primary teacher, insisted that I lose my form completely 6 years ago when he was certain I had absorbed the above lessons in body, mind, and spirit. He said "You're good now". Since then, it has been free form and an open ability to maintain the lessons within me, through all the amazing and unusual places I roam (including boxing gyms, pubs, and the occassional rodeo). He still says, "You're good now. You be yourself. Aikido is you."

I hope other people are as lucky as I am to have such an amazing instructor and human being in their lives. An instructor who can see when we've crossed the threshold and a person we can witness, love, and respect who has crossed it before us. A person who's shoulders we can stand on.

Thanks for your patience in reply, George.

Namaste

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 06-08-2007 at 08:19 AM.

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Old 06-08-2007, 08:28 AM   #67
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Value of atemi

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Hi George-

It seems that sometimes words get in the way. For that reason I train in silence and let aikido speak for itself through my training. Here, words can lead down strange paths and it seems to me, in this case, they have. Like aikido at times, the story is in between the lines.

I feel the points you brought up are excellent in a general sense. The points you brought up don't relate to what I need to newly incorporate into my practice, although I understand they were inspired by my post Along with many amazing teachers, I have been in the process of training in these "key" concepts for my entire life. I've met these lessons in many forms and many voices. Your points are beautiful and good reminders.

Motomichi Anno Sensei, my primary teacher, insisted that I lose my form completely 6 years ago when he was certain I had absorbed the above lessons in body, mind, and spirit. He said "You're good now". Since then, it has been free form and an open ability to maintain the lessons within me, through all the amazing and unusual places I roam (including boxing gyms, pubs, and the occassional rodeo). He still says, "You're good now. You can now be yourself. Aikido is you."

I hope other people are as lucky as I am to have such an amazing instructor and human being in their lives. An instructor who can see when we've crossed the threshold and a person we can witness, love, and respect who has crossed it before us. A person who's shoulders we can stand on.

Thanks for your patience in reply, George.

Namaste
Anno Sensei is one of the great gems. The Kami smiled on me and allowed me to prevail at a fund raising auction at Kimberly Richardson Sensei's new dojo. I got a beautiful "Take Musu Aikido" calligraphy done by Anno Sensei which I have had framed and placed at my dojo. It makes me smile every time I look at it. I wish I could get down there to train with him but I have my own frantic schedule...

Anyway, I know what you are saying... it's just important that we not confuse letting go of the form with not being in absolute accordance with the principles involved. The form can be almost infinite at a certain point but only if the principles are so ingrained that they are really a part of you. Too many people try to go formless in imitation of what they perceived O-Sensei doing but they have never understood the principles at work. So you get people whose movement is beautiful, their hearts are open, they love everybody but they can't actually do their waza. Now on some level, that may not matter... what's more important, how your training shapes your life and your relationships for the better, or how well you can hurl somebody who attacks you? That's pretty clear.

But the waza is a true measure of how one really understands the principles and for someone like O-Sensei, who is the model we strive to imitate on some level at least, there was no disconnect between the spiritual and the martial. He manifested the principles both within and without. That's why I always try to keep refining my understanding of the principles at work so that I don't go too far into the stratosphere in my Aikido.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 06-08-2007, 08:35 AM   #68
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Value of atemi

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Anno Sensei is one of the great gems. The Kami smiled on me and allowed me to prevail at a fund raising auction at Kimberly Richardson Sensei's new dojo. I got a beautiful "Take Musu Aikido" calligraphy done by Anno Sensei which I have had framed and placed at my dojo. It makes me smile every time I look at it. I wish I could get down there to train with him but I have my own frantic schedule...

Anyway, I know what you are saying... it's just important that we not confuse letting go of the form with not being in absolute accordance with the principles involved. The form can be almost infinite at a certain point but only if the principles are so ingrained that they are really a part of you. Too many people try to go formless in imitation of what they perceived O-Sensei doing but they have never understood the principles at work. So you get people whose movement is beautiful, their hearts are open, they love everybody but they can't actually do their waza. Now on some level, that may not matter... what's more important, how your training shapes your life and your relationships for the better, or how well you can hurl somebody who attacks you? That's pretty clear.

But the waza is a true measure of how one really understands the principles and for someone like O-Sensei, who is the model we strive to imitate on some level at least, there was no disconnect between the spiritual and the martial. He manifested the principles both within and without. That's why I always try to keep refining my understanding of the principles at work so that I don't go too far into the stratosphere in my Aikido.
To me, you and I are in a beautiful and rare boat together. Let's keep rowing and now and again let the sails take the wind.

I'm grateful for your company.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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