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Old 05-29-2007, 10:12 AM   #76
Bronson
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

My favorite technique (which has worked every time that I've faced karate, kobudo, judo, MMA, tai chi, BJJ, JJJ, kali/escrima, JKD, kendo, kung-fu, ninjutsu, and other stylists) is to enter directly in, offer my right hand and say "Hi, my name's Bronson. I practice aikido and I think what you folks do is really cool, and I'd like to learn more about it" (or some variation thereof)

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-29-2007, 03:17 PM   #77
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
The only reason those slams worked is because he was unwilling to break his arm. Had he been willing to end that guys MMA career forever, he could of broke his arm before that slam ever happened. Instead he was trying to be nice and get the 'tap'.
It looked to me like he didn't even have time to get a good lock in (either time) before the much stronger person picked his whole body up and slammed him. If it was a good lock, the person would have tapped or have not been able to pick him up and slam him.

Quote:
However even then the slams did not really mess him up that much.
A large cut on the back of the head?

Hard enough for the other guy to stop because he knew it was a hard hit?

In a real encounter, the person on the bottom wouldn't be so lucky because the other person doing the slamming might not just stop like that.

Quote:
Breaking fingers, strikes to the throat, clawing the eyes, testicles etc, are all very low precentage.
I hear this all the time, but we never see the actual studies showing how these percentages were calculated. Will you show us your study?

Quote:
And blows to the back of the head are not really defensive moves, that means you are on their back raining shots. Hardly aiki if you ask me.
You can hit someone on the back of the head without mounting them.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 05-29-2007, 03:35 PM   #78
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
It looked to me like he didn't even have time to get a good lock in (either time) before the much stronger person picked his whole body up and slammed him. If it was a good lock, the person would have tapped or have not been able to pick him up and slam him.

A large cut on the back of the head?

Hard enough for the other guy to stop because he knew it was a hard hit?

In a real encounter, the person on the bottom wouldn't be so lucky because the other person doing the slamming might not just stop like that.

I hear this all the time, but we never see the actual studies showing how these percentages were calculated. Will you show us your study?

You can hit someone on the back of the head without mounting them.
I guess we just see things different.

At what point are you going to strike my head while I take you down? The harai goshi? Maybe the double leg? Where is your power going to come from? Maybe you think I'm going to turn around and let you take jabs at the back of my skull? I've been downward elbowed on the takedown, its not that bad. I'm in the MMA scene. I've see guys break their entire freaking hand and keep fighting like nothing happened, win and go to the hospital. They even keep punching with that hand. You think a finger is going to stop someone? Rich Franklin broke his hand, and damaged his ankle in a bad way in a title fight and kept fighting strong the entire 5 rounds. Look at it this way, I wont stop for a broken finger in a grappling match. Why would I stop when I really want to hurt you? Hell I know a guy who tore his ACL to win an amature MMA match. He sat right up through a heel hook. I've seen a guy break his arm to punch out a guy who was armbaring him.The ref called the fight because his arm was all screwed up. He was upset the fight was called, even though he had to go though months of physical therapy. These are not even real fights, they are sport fights. In a real fight you think they are going to let a trivial finger stop them?

I've personally needed to go to the hospital after a groin kick and still won the fight. New guys grab my fingers constantly, its not a big threat. Guys pinch me constantly, it leaves a huge bruise but doesn't hurt in the least. Noobs try everything to win, and I usually encourage them to. I'll gladly sacrifice a finger to break an arm or choke unconscious. Then I'll be upset at the pain and do far worse then I intended. So go ahead and clutch at my eyes while you slowly lose consciousness. Grab my fingers while I break your arm, pinch my legs while you take a long nap followed by stomps. Elbow my back while I drive your skull into the hard ground.

And yes, I know a good eye gouge is going to slow a guy down. I've seen it happen in MMA matches. But it is usually on a punch. Once the grappling starts it is really hard to defend yourself and gouge an eye. The man in the dominate position has a much better chance at gouging your eyes then you do. Reach for my eyes on the back mount, I'll tear your eyes out with my free hand while I choke you and tuck my head to protect. Reach for my eyes in the guard or mount and you are getting a broken arm, followed by a few stomps to the face.

It's not that I'm an unbeatable fighter. I freaking suck at fighting. Its that simply these techniques do not work. While you waste time inflicting almost no damage, you are going to get seriously hurt. Anyone promoting these ideas as an effective defense against anyone, bjjer or otherwise is simply unexperienced or a dreamer.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-29-2007, 04:18 PM   #79
Aristeia
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Anthony Towsley wrote: View Post
Yeah, Carlos Machado is the one I found in Farmer's Branch. Kinda pricey. But that's relative I guess.

Last year I believe they were charging $135 a month and $50 annual association fee. Granted, I guess if you really want to learn it's cheap. $50 a year for the association is reasonable.
$300/hr for private lessons with Carlos Machado!

Guess they charge what they can get.

http://www.carlosmachado.net/machado/instruction.jsp

Cheers,

Anthony
yes that is expensive. Myt personal opinion is that it's worth it. Training with one of the Machado brothers is roughly equivilent to training with someone like say, Shioda or Tohei in Aikido lineage. So they're right up there. But as a newb to the art it may well be that you would do just as well to find a blue belt teaching somewhere for $50 a month if all you're looking for is a flavour

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-29-2007, 04:22 PM   #80
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
Okay

When I asked the question at hand I was looking for Aikido techniques and I seem to have got alternatives like:

1) Use a weapon
2) Gouge the eyes
3) Learn BJJ/Wrestling

Frankly these answers (specially coming from Aikidoka's) concern me because it reflects mental desperation and panic when it comes to BJJ
I've said this before ad nauseum on other threads but guess you have not tracked them down.

1. Why is it so important to find an "aiki" solution to a problem Aikido was never designed to solve?
2. How do you define an Aikido solution? Does it need to be kote gaeshi and shiho nage or will it do to take the principals and strategies of Aikido and adapt them to the ground situation? I mean principals like blending, centering, leading, off balancing, focusing the unified power of your movement against their weakest points etc ertc.
3. If you are happy to use aikido strategies on the ground and call that an aikido solution - the good news is there is much that can be done. In fact a lot of work has been done in this area and it goes by the name of BJJ.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-29-2007, 04:24 PM   #81
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Aikido is love you know. So...

When your taken down by a BJJ'er, grab his arse and give him a big juicy kiss. Guaranteed to end the fight in an instance and he will probably never attack you again.

Ps. do not try this technique if your currently serving time.
waitaminnut. You're going to take guys that spend hours and hours a week rolling around with other guys between their legs, mounted on top, and back mounted (and lets not forget north/south) - and try and out gay them into submission?? Good luck with that.
;-)

Anyone got a link to the bjj is the gayest sport ever vid?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-29-2007, 04:25 PM   #82
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
The real question is: How do you defend yourself against an BJJ attacker on an internet forum?
don't bring up grappling, ground fighting or bjj and I think you'll find there is not attack ;-)
- newbs raising this topic is the equivalent to someone grabbing your wrist imo

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-29-2007, 04:27 PM   #83
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post

Basically, anything that their sporting/entertianment environment outlaws: strikes to the throat, back of the head, breaking fingers, clawing eyes, testicles, etc. Using weapons..
as I think don said, in a no rules environment you can use those "dirty tricks". But so can the other guy. And the person that can do it most effectively and with least risk to exposing themselves to a counter attack is the person with positional dominance...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-29-2007, 05:47 PM   #84
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Damn, go to Paris for a few days and I missed this thread!

Sorry to leave you hanging Michael!

Michael is dead on the money, along with Larry and Don as well.

As far as looking at engagements from a particular paradigm, be it aikido, bjj, judo...or what not is really limiting and sets up a situation in which you come up with illogical comparisons.

Aikido and the Dynamic sphere I believe (Westbrook and Rati) cover fighting situaitons pretty good in the beginning of there fight.

These are the common situations you should explore, not from a stylistic standpoint.

1. Both partners square off and wait for the attack. (Parity).
2. One partner attacks while the other is not aware (non-parity).
3. Both know, one has a weapon.
4. One knows the other doesn't...the one knows has the weapon.
etc, etc. you get the idea....

From there you can then explore what works and does not work. You really have to define the parameters and the rules of engagement to have a good dicsussion in this area.

Studying both aikido and bjj I have found both to be complimetary and to have advantages depending on situations being presented and through what filters and conditions you determine to set.

In some cases a BJJ paradigm does not work at all, especially if the guy is determined not to fight and runs away.

Niether bjj or aikido work very well if your opponents buddy shows up with a gun!

A beer bottle over the unaware head trumps both as well!

Training in both has opened my eyes only to show me that style is not so important as much as the willingness of the budoka to not accept excuses or definitions that limit his/her ability to be open and grow. Translation: If something bugs you...then you should go study it...if you don't or cannot find the time, well then I guess it just isn't that much of a priority.

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Old 05-29-2007, 06:40 PM   #85
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
as I think don said, in a no rules environment you can use those "dirty tricks". But so can the other guy.
Of course they can, but that is like saying the guy who doesn't train in arm bars can also arm bar in a real fight. Trivially true, but unlikely, since they don't train in that manner.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 05-29-2007, 06:50 PM   #86
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
Of course they can, but that is like saying the guy who doesn't train in arm bars can also arm bar in a real fight. Trivially true, but unlikely, since they don't train in that manner.
Luckly NO ONE trains to actually use eye gouges, or they would all be blind.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-29-2007, 11:02 PM   #87
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
Of course they can, but that is like saying the guy who doesn't train in arm bars can also arm bar in a real fight. Trivially true, but unlikely, since they don't train in that manner.
I hae not seen alot of training time in aikido dojos dedicated to eye gouging and finger breaking. Don't recall any pics or stories of osensei doin it either...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-29-2007, 11:11 PM   #88
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

just in case I've been involved in some weird aikido offshoot that's doesn't do the full syllabus I just checked both the "my favourite technique" and "my last class" threads. Surprisingly no mention of eye gouges in there. Odd....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-30-2007, 12:34 AM   #89
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
waitaminnut. You're going to take guys that spend hours and hours a week rolling around with other guys between their legs, mounted on top, and back mounted (and lets not forget north/south) - and try and out gay them into submission?? Good luck with that.
;-)

Anyone got a link to the bjj is the gayest sport ever vid?
Good point! Back to the drawing board....
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Old 05-30-2007, 12:52 AM   #90
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Aha.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 05-30-2007 at 12:55 AM. Reason: I didn't see what was going on there. Sorry Jun.

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Old 05-30-2007, 01:35 AM   #91
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
waitaminnut. You're going to take guys that spend hours and hours a week rolling around with other guys between their legs, mounted on top, and back mounted (and lets not forget north/south) - and try and out gay them into submission?? Good luck with that.
;-)

Anyone got a link to the bjj is the gayest sport ever vid?
JooZitZoo is T3H GH3Y lol

... North South...now that is a so H4WT.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:30 AM   #92
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
lol
That right thar is why I don't do bjj.
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:45 AM   #93
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

At least I've never been asked in bjj to extend more or enter deeper.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:45 AM   #94
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I have a friend who does BJJ and I make fun of him (in a joking way) about the gayish attitude of BJJ. He always says that it is ok unless you have eye contact hee hee.

Last week I was making fun of him as usual and he gave me an answer that made us both get on our knees for how much we laughed. I told him about a match I watched in iternet and the position they had assumed and how much BJJer like "pushing" against the other fighter behind...he turned to me and said "you don't do that in Aikido, you just grab by the hand and walk away together happily".
Man I still laugh whne I think the way he said that.

At least we can say Aikido is romantic, BJJ is rough LOL.
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Old 05-30-2007, 04:13 PM   #95
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
I hae not seen alot of training time in aikido dojos dedicated to eye gouging and finger breaking. Don't recall any pics or stories of osensei doin it either...
And this changes things how?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 05-30-2007, 04:16 PM   #96
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

The whole eye-gouging finger breaking thingy is a specious arguement. Nothing anyone says will change that.

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-30-2007, 04:31 PM   #97
Aristeia
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
And this changes things how?
Quote:
Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
as I think don said, in a no rules environment you can use those "dirty tricks". But so can the other guy.
Quote = Justin Smith
Of course they can, but that is like saying the guy who doesn't train in arm bars can also arm bar in a real fight. Trivially true, but unlikely, since they don't train in that manner.
Your implication was that someone like a BJJer would be less likely to call on things like eye gouges as they don't train them. My point is Aikidoka don't train them either. Which brings me back to my original point - both participants can employ those strategies and in fact the person most likely to be able to do so effectively and safely is the person that has positional dominance.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-30-2007, 04:32 PM   #98
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
The whole eye-gouging finger breaking thingy is a specious arguement. Nothing anyone says will change that.

B,
R
what Ron said.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:39 PM   #99
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
The whole eye-gouging finger breaking thingy is a specious arguement. Nothing anyone says will change that.

B,
R
I hate you, you made me learn a new word. You know how hard it is to find my dictionary?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:15 PM   #100
Keith R Lee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I hate you, you made me learn a new word. You know how hard it is to find my dictionary?
You know you can just type "define: X" (where X equals your word of choice) into Google, right?

Keith Lee
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