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Old 05-27-2007, 09:49 AM   #26
paw
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
I believe the best way to deal with them is on the ground. So I would use any technique from suri-waza.
Tactically, I would disagree. Groundwork is the strength of bjj, so choosing to engage on the ground with a bjj'er would be similar to wanting to box with a boxer. I wouldn't recommend that, myself.

In my own experience, swari-waza is not an effective way to counter bjj, nor would be attempting to apply submission holds from a inferior position which I think was suggested earlier. Of course, ymmv.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:12 PM   #27
Adam Alexander
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
*sigh* we've been round this block before neh.
Very true. Except, that was the last time when I accepted your "challenge" to go check out dojo. Then I found that ground guys couldn't take me down until after I was totally winded and was indifferent to going down. I consistently got holds that were initial steps in Aikido techniques. And I chose not to apply techniques because I had several individuals in very delicate positions and I was afraid to hurt them (I had their fingers/hands/wrists under control).

I consistently controlled distance with Aikido. As a result, I controlled the situation.

Apparently the problem with you is that your Aikido is weak and you've failed with it. Because your technique is weak, you think that no one else's Aikido is effective?

It's good that you didn't continue on with that post. I put up, I figure it's time for you to shut up... my Aiki-failure friend.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 05-27-2007 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:16 PM   #28
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I think the ultimate unstoppable technique that should have been used since the beginning of this thread is the Aikiweb Search Engine. Use words such as BJJ, shoot defense or any other BJJ specific terminology and you'lll find a host of very long threads dealing with almost everything to do with a BJJ/Aikido encounter.

For those of us here for some time, like Michael Fooks etc. this concept has been beaten to death, literally. Imho folks who compare style vs style instead of person vs person probably do not have very extensive experience/knowledge in fighting or sparring.

Gambatte.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:25 PM   #29
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Paul Watt wrote: View Post
Groundwork is the strength of bjj, so choosing to engage on the ground with a bjj'er would be similar to wanting to box with a boxer. I wouldn't recommend that, myself.
Totally agree. Aikido can work quite well but one has to understand Aikido and be able to apply it very well. If you end up on the ground with no ground skills... good luck.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 05-27-2007, 02:06 PM   #30
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote: View Post
Very true. Except, that was the last time when I accepted your "challenge" to go check out dojo. .
I call shennanigans on this. Please name the bjj school you went to and the level of the people you sparred with.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-27-2007, 02:38 PM   #31
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post

If you end up on the ground with no ground skills... good luck.
Indeed. And to be clear to all, ground skills involves actually training on the ground against resistance, not saying "I'll just do ikkyo from my back"

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-27-2007, 02:41 PM   #32
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote: View Post
I think what we really need is some sort of automated bot for the message board. As soon as it detects any sort of "Aikido vs BJJ" post it deletes it then forwards the poster the dozens of threads that already exist on the topic.
Great idea! And lets add to the bots duties by having it also post youtube links to video's of those that have trained "hard enough and long enough" using Aikido to thwart the attack of BJJ blue belts or highter.

Oh wait.....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-27-2007, 03:51 PM   #33
Keith R Lee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote: View Post
Very true. Except, that was the last time when I accepted your "challenge" to go check out dojo. Then I found that ground guys couldn't take me down until after I was totally winded and was indifferent to going down. I consistently got holds that were initial steps in Aikido techniques. And I chose not to apply techniques because I had several individuals in very delicate positions and I was afraid to hurt them (I had their fingers/hands/wrists under control).

I consistently controlled distance with Aikido. As a result, I controlled the situation.

Apparently the problem with you is that your Aikido is weak and you've failed with it. Because your technique is weak, you think that no one else's Aikido is effective?

It's good that you didn't continue on with that post. I put up, I figure it's time for you to shut up... my Aiki-failure friend.
Name the exact BJJ gym you went to, along with people who were blue belt and higher that were there. Almost any reputable BJJ will have a website as well so you should be able to link it for us. I call ultra-double-super-shennanigans if you were both wearing gi.

Keith Lee
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Old 05-27-2007, 03:55 PM   #34
Adam Alexander
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
I call shennanigans on this. Please name the bjj school you went to and the level of the people you sparred with.
Yeah, yeah. How about you post the names of the people you've trained under in Aikido who's technique is too weak to deal with BJJers?

Since my visit to that initial dojo that ended my questions I had on whether it was me who imagined I saw too much in the techniques or your blindness that prevented you from seeing the depth of the art, I've messed around with a handful more.

I'm not going to appear to brag or insult people who don't take it personally that I get the better of them on most occassions.

In the end, the case is closed for me. Your technique is immature, that's why you couldn't find the answers in Aikido.
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Old 05-27-2007, 04:03 PM   #35
Adam Alexander
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote: View Post
Name the exact BJJ gym you went to, along with people who were blue belt and higher that were there. Almost any reputable BJJ will have a website as well so you should be able to link it for us. I call ultra-double-super-shennanigans if you were both wearing gi.
Sure. What sandan Aikidoka have you tangled with to support anything that contradicts what I'm saying.

BJJ, JJ who cares? It's all JJ just like Aikido is all Aikido.

You guys play this game. If I head to a dojo, it's not the right dojo. If I name a rank, it wasn't the right rank. If I name a name, it's not the right name. If an Aikidoka won the UFC, it was the wrong time to win the UFC.

You're blinded by denial because you can't grasp it.
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Old 05-27-2007, 08:20 PM   #36
Keith R Lee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Well, one of my best friends is a sandan (we met at our Aikido dojo) and we train in BJJ together on a regular basis. So...pretty often.

No, the game is, you come on here and make wild claims and we ask you to back them up, you resort to ad hominem retorts. Which, tends to make everyone not believe anything you say. At this point, I'm fairly resigned to just regarding you as a very clever troll.

Keith Lee
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Old 05-27-2007, 09:36 PM   #37
Adam Alexander
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote: View Post
Well, one of my best friends is a sandan (we met at our Aikido dojo) and we train in BJJ together on a regular basis. So...pretty often.

No, the game is, you come on here and make wild claims and we ask you to back them up, you resort to ad hominem retorts. Which, tends to make everyone not believe anything you say. At this point, I'm fairly resigned to just regarding you as a very clever troll.
Yeah but was he a sandan before or after he started BJJ? If he wasn't a sandan, then he doesn't count. Then, what style is he if he was a sandan? Only two styles of Aikido matter and he's had to of trained in one for five years and the other for six months. However, the six months must of been during his third year of the first style. Of course, he had to of returned to the second after his five years of the first to pursue his sandan.

And let's face it, one sandan doesn't really represent Aikido as a whole.

You're right. I'm very clever. But if I'm a troll, it seems interesting that I'm an Aikidoka on an Aikido website responding to posts made by non-committed or non-Aikidoka.

Makes me wonder, who are the trolls?
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:23 PM   #38
miratim
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote: View Post
Yeah but was he a sandan before or after he started BJJ? If he wasn't a sandan, then he doesn't count. Then, what style is he if he was a sandan? Only two styles of Aikido matter and he's had to of trained in one for five years and the other for six months. However, the six months must of been during his third year of the first style. Of course, he had to of returned to the second after his five years of the first to pursue his sandan.
What does any of that mean?
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Old 05-28-2007, 01:41 AM   #39
charyuop
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

The real problem is that you ask a question to which very few Aikidoka's can answer.
You will see the usual defensive answers like "why you wanna know? Aikido is..." or "when a BJJer will attack you?". But this is to hide the fact that someone who does only Aikido has not a clue on what to do on the ground. In dojo's it is never practiced and so no way to tell you.

One thing I agree with what I read, if a BBJer wants to take the fight to the ground in the long run it wil happen. So if you wanna know what to do the only thing is taking your Sensei and train in dojo with him on avoiding being taken down. But most likely go to a BJJ gym and learn some ground work which won't hurt you to know.
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Old 05-28-2007, 01:45 AM   #40
Aristeia
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

who knows what I mean. I do remember that in the last discussion that Jean went on a bent about how rank doesn't matter. I predicted he'd change his tune on that and I see he has.

Sandans? Well I'm one, does that count? I was Nidan when I first walked into a BJJ club and got completely handled. My grades have all been confrerred by an Aikikai Shihan - so of course when you insult my level and ability you are also insulting that particular Shihan and indeed the Aikikai.

I noticed something odd in one of your responses. Can you confirm for us that the "dojo" you went to test yourself was *Brazillian* Jiu Jitsu and not japanese?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-28-2007, 02:07 AM   #41
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

oops that should read who knows what he (Jean) means - in response to Tim.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-28-2007, 02:09 AM   #42
Aristeia
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Gianluigi Pizzuto wrote: View Post
The real problem is that you ask a question to which very few Aikidoka's can answer.
Actually there are many Aikidoka that can answer becasue they have trained in BJJ. Several on this forum. But some people don't seem to like us - apparently because they don't like the answers we give.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-28-2007, 02:46 AM   #43
xuzen
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

What technique to use against BJJ?

1) Jo chudan tsuki
2) Jo ashi gake
3) Jo ashi gari
4) Jo shomen uchi
5) Jo yokemen uchi... all this or

learn to grapple.

p/s suwari-waza do not work against newaza player.. sadly from personal experience.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 05-28-2007, 02:52 AM   #44
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
What technique to use against BJJ?

1) Jo chudan tsuki
2) Jo ashi gake
3) Jo ashi gari
4) Jo shomen uchi
5) Jo yokemen uchi... all this or
Nah, I grappled with Joe, he's not as good as people think...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-28-2007, 05:12 AM   #45
Michael Varin
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Gianluigi Pizzuto wrote:
One thing I agree with what I read, if a BBJer wants to take the fight to the ground in the long run it wil happen. So if you wanna know what to do the only thing is taking your Sensei and train in dojo with him on avoiding being taken down. But most likely go to a BJJ gym and learn some ground work which won't hurt you to know.
It's surprising that so many people still believe that BJJ is the crown jewel of empty-handed fighting. I watched UFC 71 last night and the trends of MMA today continue. The techniques of BJJ don't have much more relevance than the techniques of aikido. This is really no big news. Both systems have their roots in Japanese jujutsu, which was developed by men who were always armed.

The evolution of the UFC is very interesting, because we are seeing what skilled empty-handed fighting looks like. The hands of western boxing, and the elbows, knees, and kicks of Muay Thai supported by the positional awareness of BJJ, the takedown and takedown defense of free-style wrestling, the throws of judo and Greco, and chokes. Submissions like juji gatame still pop up, but only sparingly, and don't make much sense when compared to ground-and-pound. Guard is much less of a way for a smaller man to win than it is making the best of a bad situation.

I don't say this to discourage anyone from studying BJJ or any other martial art, but just to keep things in proper perspective.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-28-2007, 05:34 AM   #46
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

you're somewhat correct on the trends. In the early UFC's very few people had any idea about the ground game, so you could win with just that (one eyed man in the land o fthe blind and all that). Then more ground skills came in, the wrestlers arrived, the stikers got good ground training, so the ground - while still a crucial element was no longer enough to win.

It's important to understand though that at the top level, and even many of the next tiers. those who look to be "strikers" are only able to strike because they have a strong enough ground game to allow them to do it.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-28-2007, 05:56 AM   #47
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

These threads always show how little the average AIkidoka knows about using Aikido in an actual engagement imho. The talk about using weapons against an unarmed BJJ person is just as bad as the "dirty tricks" (eye gouges etc.) approach imho. It shows a lack of understanding of both BJJ and Aikido for that matter.

If you want to defend against BJJ in a manner that works regardless of what style you train in, then learning BJJ or a comparable method that teaches you quality ground fighting is the best route imho. If one wants to respond using what is available within the Aikido paradigm alone there are very many options, but when one talks about "Aikido responses" and then says ground fighting it shows that one really doesn't get how Aikido operates as a "combative" art, especially against something like BJJ. The "ground" is a BJJ-er's home and "fighting" is something most Aikidoka are not trained to do quite well.

Gambatte.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 05-28-2007 at 05:59 AM.

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Old 05-28-2007, 09:34 AM   #48
charyuop
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

The fact is that BJJ is ground fighting. I have never watched UFC or stuff like that, but I have watched different matches of BJJ in internet to see why people is so attracted to it.

If the fight goes on standing in my humble opinion, of course speaking of even skilled fighters, the Aikidoka would have no problems to defend himslef. But all the matches I have seen every BJJer aims immediately to grab the legs to end the fight on the ground where the Aikidoka has close to 0% chances to win.

Here it not a matter of knowing what Aikido gives you, coz it gives you good tools to fight. The fact is that when the opponent keeps throwing himself at your legs sooner or later he will take you down. You might be lucky and avoid it once, twice, three times, but till when? You might be lucky and get the good timing in entering in irimi on the opponent shoulder and maybe do some damage there or step back or to the side trying to have the BJJer fall down.
What I mean is that you have to find the good timing 100% of the times, while for the BJJer it's enough you miss once and down he brings you. On the ground he will have all the time to find a way to gain victory coz on the ground he won't need to be 100% correct all the time, coz if he makes a mistake on the ground a pure Aikidoka will never be able to take advantage of it.
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Old 05-28-2007, 10:03 AM   #49
Keith R Lee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote: View Post
Yeah but was he a sandan before or after he started BJJ? If he wasn't a sandan, then he doesn't count. Then, what style is he if he was a sandan? Only two styles of Aikido matter and he's had to of trained in one for five years and the other for six months. However, the six months must of been during his third year of the first style. Of course, he had to of returned to the second after his five years of the first to pursue his sandan.
I can't even parse this.

Quote:
And let's face it, one sandan doesn't really represent Aikido as a whole.
So after I say I train with a sandan on a regular basis, you immediately change your tune. Just a minute ago you made it sound like a sandan is the end all, be all. Any more inconsistencies or hyperbole you'd like to throw out?

Quote:
But if I'm a troll, it seems interesting that I'm an Aikidoka on an Aikido website responding to posts made by non-committed or non-Aikidoka.
Non-committed?? Michael and I are both higher ranked and have trained longer in Aikido than you, so if we're comparing commitment than we both place higher than you on that totem pole.

Keith Lee
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Old 05-28-2007, 10:24 AM   #50
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Hello all! I see you are having a very good discussion, and I belive I have the answer. Before I started Aikido I had four years of Karate and som JuJutsu, and quite simply the easiest way to stop a grappler is too....Relax completely! One of Tohei's five ki principles, you see grapplers require resistance, if they were to do say a bear hug and you relax completely and do not resist, there isn't much they can do, and beside, why are you concerning yourself with your attacker? As O'sensei said, attackers will come in all shapes forms and sizes, but they are just energy to be harmonized with.
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