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Old 05-21-2007, 04:38 AM   #1
Murgen
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Ganseki Otoshi

We started learning this technique and I humbly submit this short clip of me performing ganseki otoshi. Any constructive criticism or thoughts are welcome.

http://youtube.com/profile?user=Aikithai1

I believe this is the correct way for the uke to land, on his feet. from what I understand any other way would be dangerous to uke.

Cheers!

Last edited by Murgen : 05-21-2007 at 04:41 AM.
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Old 05-21-2007, 07:30 AM   #2
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

http://www.tsuki-kage.com/mpegs/ganseki_otoshi.mpg

Above is another example of doing this waza. I suggest you use google and compare notes with the different versions that are out there. This waza has been discussed many times on many different boards, and the google search will highlight these. There are also clips from Saito Sensei of the Iwama dojo (sadly no longer with us).

In my mind, the comparison with different versions will yield much more information than any critisism I might have.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-21-2007, 08:18 AM   #3
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

Quote:
Anthony Towsley wrote: View Post
We started learning this technique and I humbly submit this short clip of me performing ganseki otoshi. Any constructive criticism or thoughts are welcome.

http://youtube.com/profile?user=Aikithai1

I believe this is the correct way for the uke to land, on his feet. from what I understand any other way would be dangerous to uke.

Cheers!
When we simply do a technique from the book, as it were, the results are fairly predictable for both nage and uke ( while the skill level rises to it's next pace). But the throws in a dynamic and free execution will have a spiral effect that is more unpredictable in terms of a 'diagramed fall'. Uke could end up in just about any position depending on the dynamic rotation. For safety, one would want to practice this with alot of 'diagram' and 'prescription'. But if you were simply thrust into a spiral of this nature you would really need to tap into your tanden activate your own resonant spirals and match the fury of the movement as it lives. Tuck your head on the way .
By the way, I seperated my shoulder doing this technique about 10 years ago and very nearly broke my neck (the shoulder was the 'sacrifice'). Nage can be a great support by enhancing the final spiral (like the second video in this forum) and blending with Uke even at the 'end'. That is a compromise to upright form, but it is a lot more connected to uke.

Looks like you guys have a lot of fun and that you have healthy respect for one another. I bet you'll get it to your satisfaction.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 05-21-2007, 12:15 PM   #4
Don_Modesto
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

Quote:
Anthony Towsley wrote: View Post
We started learning this technique and I humbly submit this short clip of me performing ganseki otoshi. Any constructive criticism or thoughts are welcome.

http://youtube.com/profile?user=Aikithai1

I believe this is the correct way for the uke to land, on his feet. from what I understand any other way would be dangerous to uke.

Cheers!
As with Ron, comparisons would benefit you more than any criticisms I would make.

FWIW, I have a terrific video set from CoolRain, Aikido in Training, and UKE lands on his knees with this technique.

Isoyama's version is what judo calls KATA GURUMA, i.e., UKE's belly is on NAGE's shoulders, not his back, but naming conventions are quite variable.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 05-21-2007, 01:02 PM   #5
Murgen
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

Thanks for the feedback and video clip. Any other's are welcome for comparison. It's a really interesting throw and fun to do.

Yes, I usually land on my knees as uke. Can't seem to get my legs tight enough going over. I may not have good knees for long if I keep landing on them.

Cheers

Anthony
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Old 05-21-2007, 03:07 PM   #6
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
As with Ron, comparisons would benefit you more than any criticisms I would make.

FWIW, I have a terrific video set from CoolRain, Aikido in Training, and UKE lands on his knees with this technique.

Isoyama's version is what judo calls KATA GURUMA, i.e., UKE's belly is on NAGE's shoulders, not his back, but naming conventions are quite variable.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/downloa...ia=video&id=91

George S. Ledyard
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Old 05-21-2007, 03:19 PM   #7
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

Quote:
Anthony Towsley wrote: View Post
We started learning this technique and I humbly submit this short clip of me performing ganseki otoshi. Any constructive criticism or thoughts are welcome.

http://youtube.com/profile?user=Aikithai1

I believe this is the correct way for the uke to land, on his feet. from what I understand any other way would be dangerous to uke.

Cheers!
It looks to me as if you are bent over too much. Definitely not the OSHA approved lifting method. I think the legs need to do more of the work or you risk throwing your back seriously out.

http://takemusu.org/patsensei/ss/80s.htm

If you look at this still shot of Saito Sensei (halfway down the page) his back is much straighter and his head is up, making his back much stronger.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 05-21-2007, 04:21 PM   #8
Murgen
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
If you look at this still shot of Saito Sensei (halfway down the page) his back is much straighter and his head is up, making his back much stronger.
I see your point. I'll keep that in mind the next time we try it. There is definitely a big difference now that it's been pointed out.

When practicing I did straighten up one time, and the UKE was about 6 feet off the ground. I think it scared him, and me, so I went back to stooping over. But, now that it's been pointed out and I look at Saito-sensei, it appears that was the correct way. I felt a lot stronger too being more straight. Plus it probably would allow the UKE more time to get his feet rotated under him.

Thanks everybody for your time and input!

Anthony
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Old 05-21-2007, 04:30 PM   #9
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

Quote:
Anthony Towsley wrote: View Post
I see your point. I'll keep that in mind the next time we try it. There is definitely a big difference now that it's been pointed out.

When practicing I did straighten up one time, and the UKE was about 6 feet off the ground. I think it scared him, and me, so I went back to stooping over. But, now that it's been pointed out and I look at Saito-sensei, it appears that was the correct way. I felt a lot stronger too being more straight. Plus it probably would allow the UKE more time to get his feet rotated under him.

Thanks everybody for your time and input!

Anthony
I have always remembered the story I read about in the news where some NFL lineman, some 300+ lb beastie boy, couldn't play in some game because he was injured, not in practice or in a game, but when he picked up his TV set and didn't use good posture. My back went out once when I was cutting a sheet of ply wood and leaned a bit too far out as I did the cut. So I am always conscious of back alignment. Nothing brings your practice to a dead stop like throwing your back out...

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 05-21-2007, 10:23 PM   #10
xuzen
 
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

Scary technique if I may add. I am so glad it isn't part of Yoshinkan standard syllabus... Phew! I would hate to be uke for this type of throw.

Boon.

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Old 05-22-2007, 07:26 AM   #11
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

Quote:
Phew! I would hate to be uke for this type of throw.
Actually, it's a blast, as long as you are healthy and shite is kind. But then I like head throws too...

Best,
Ron (can't take ukemi for those anymore...too much risk for my neck )

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-22-2007, 11:25 AM   #12
Don_Modesto
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

Quote:
Anthony Towsley wrote: View Post
When practicing I did straighten up one time, and the UKE was about 6 feet off the ground. I think it scared him, and me, so I went back to stooping over.
You can do it on your knees. You see judo guys do that with their KATA GURUMA.

I'd be more worried about my head's proximity to the mat as I spin downwards, though, than falling on my butt...

(Ron! Head throws?! Fie, fie!)

Don J. Modesto
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Old 05-22-2007, 12:09 PM   #13
Bronson
 
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

http://www.aikidojournal.com/media?media=video&page=3

In the video of Hiroshi Isoyama at the 1986 All-Japan Aikido Demonstration (3rd from top) are the techniques at 1:00, 1:05, 1:23 1:47, 2:10, 2:15, and 2:24 versions of ganseki otoshi or something else (we don't have ganseki otoshi in our syllabus so I'm not too familiar with it.... oh Ron, we don't have head throws either )

Bronson

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Old 05-22-2007, 02:02 PM   #14
Murgen
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote: View Post
http://www.aikidojournal.com/media?media=video&page=3

In the video of Hiroshi Isoyama at the 1986 All-Japan Aikido Demonstration (3rd from top) are the techniques at 1:00, 1:05, 1:23 1:47, 2:10, 2:15, and 2:24 versions of ganseki otoshi or something else (we don't have ganseki otoshi in our syllabus so I'm not too familiar with it.... oh Ron, we don't have head throws either )

Bronson
Ouch!! I guess I know now why most fatalities in Aikido are in Japan. I doubt most Americans would hang around being forced to take ukemi like that. Assuming they weren't put in the hospital on the first go. Different cultures for sure.

I would really have some reservations about getting tossed like that. Granted, it was sort up an up and down, and I think relatively easy to get into position. And there was a pause at the apex to give them time to orient themselves and he didn't drive them into the mat (at least it seemed like it). But still. YIKES.

Peace
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Old 05-22-2007, 02:20 PM   #15
Basia Halliop
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Re: Ganseki Otoshi

Quote:
I doubt most Americans would hang around being forced to take ukemi like that. Assuming they weren't put in the hospital on the first go.
Well, I'm Canadian, but I think it looks kind of fun. Makes me think of a couple of acrobatic people at my dojo .

I'm assuming it involves being properly and slowly taught how to take the ukemi, and you had a skilled and careful nage, and were always welcome to say 'no thanks I'll sit this one out', and so on.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 05-22-2007 at 02:23 PM.
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