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Old 04-29-2007, 06:22 PM   #101
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
William,
What does this mean? I don't get it?

If I bought all of Nishio Sensei's videos (which I did) and then incorporated some of his ideas into my Aikido, did I "steal" something? If I went to some seminars with Endo Sensei and incorporated some elements of what he taught, did I "steal" something?

"Steal" implies that I have taken something I am not entitled to have. Nishio put out all sort sorts of videos and anyone could purchase them, not just folks from his lineage. He taught all sorts of seminars over the years which were open to people of all affiliations. Ostensibly he did this because he wished his "take" on Aikido to be widely dispersed.

So given the fact that no effort was made to keep things restricted, as they are in a koryu, how can you say that anything was stolen? Seems an odd term to use...
In retrospect an incorrect term at best for which I both retract and apologize to Larry, You and anyone else who may have been offended by it.

William Hazen
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Old 04-29-2007, 06:54 PM   #102
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
In retrospect an incorrect term at best for which I both retract and apologize to Larry, You and anyone else who may have been offended by it.

William Hazen
"What me worry?" I wasn't offended, I was just wondering what you meant by it. Sounded like one of those loaded terms we all have that carry a load from somewhere else.

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Old 04-30-2007, 03:43 AM   #103
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Quote:
Charles wrote:
Boon,
When I was at the Aikikai Honbu, there was a young man who worked there, probably a shihan or at least shidoin, who often had a black eye or two from acting as one particular major Shihan's uke in demonstration. I think he would diagree with your characterization of Aikikai being atemi-less.
Charles
You know, the problem with Aikikai is this. There is no consistency and no quality control. You can get the "tree hugging hippy granola crunching" version all the way to "I'm gonna make you wish yer Ma never give birth to you" type.

Hence, you were exposed to the latter, whereas I was exposed to the former, all still under the umbrella of AIKIKAI org.

Boon.

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Old 04-30-2007, 08:21 AM   #104
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Hello larry

I am really puzzled by you statement about you not using atemi.
Since the beginning of this thread people have said that you could use atemi
To hit him
To make him move
Or to prevent him to go somewhere

In http://www.aceaikido.com/IndyBackfist.mov

You plainly clearly use atemi to finish your partner off.
The offer on the table for him is I let my head go to where I am taken of balance or I take the strike that is coming.
You will surely argue that you never had the intent to strike him, hence it is not an atemi, but that his beside the point, and he reacted as if you were. And that is the point of using atemi.

Ultimately even if you never ever going to hit someone with an atemi, the "fear" of the atemi for lack of a better word, was what you used. From our younger age, we know that atemi hurts so we have learned that it is better not to be there even if we never have been hit. For example, I have never ever be kicked buy horse, but I have seen it, and that is precisely why I take corrective action when I pass behind a horse.

We can argue until someone can demonstrate that there is only one straight line between two points that actually smashing his head in is part of aikido, but that is another debate.

Phil

PS For the record I think that was martially sound, regardless the precived intent of uke (we need to bear in mind that video tends to slow thing down)
He attack out of distance/out of his space, so you where able to slip his attack which gave you a timing advantage.
As you drive/guide his am to the third point, you protect you movement of the fighting lie and with you right arms movement (whether we call it atemi or not) you deprive of him of mounting a counterattack.

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Old 04-30-2007, 08:29 AM   #105
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
"What me worry?" I wasn't offended, I was just wondering what you meant by it. Sounded like one of those loaded terms we all have that carry a load from somewhere else.
I was reffering to it from the old school Koryu sense however you're right George Nishio Shihan shared his Aikido with all... so it was a poor choice of words....

William Hazen
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Old 04-30-2007, 08:48 AM   #106
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

From "Modern Learning: A Decline in Stealing?" by Prof. Peter Goldsbury
"The Founder of aikido has been quoted as good-humouredly telling his deshi, “Don’t expect me to teach you. You must steal the techniques for yourselves.” The stealing of techniques, coupled with the relationship known as SHU-HA-RI, is sometimes regarded as the most traditional and appropriate method of learning in Japanese traditional arts."

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 04-30-2007, 03:06 PM   #107
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

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Cito Maramba wrote: View Post
From "Modern Learning: A Decline in Stealing?" by Prof. Peter Goldsbury
"The Founder of aikido has been quoted as good-humouredly telling his deshi, “Don’t expect me to teach you. You must steal the techniques for yourselves.” The stealing of techniques, coupled with the relationship known as SHU-HA-RI, is sometimes regarded as the most traditional and appropriate method of learning in Japanese traditional arts."
Thanks for this Cito...I forget that I have been around along time and when folks refer to stealing techniques I assume your citation from Professor Goldsbury ( and other Shihan over my long experiance) is what they mean. It was my fault for not being able to explain it better here.

William Hazen
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Old 04-30-2007, 03:15 PM   #108
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello larry I am really puzzled by you statement about you not using atemi. ... You plainly clearly use atemi to finish your partner off.
IMHO, if I understand Novick Sensei's position (yea, I know, fat chance of that), the movement he uses is to "let" the uke fall, not to "strike" or "take or break balance". It is a subtle distinction in intent, but since ki follows mind (intent) it may make for quite the difference in execution.

These subtle distinctions in thought are really very fascinating.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 04-30-2007, 03:57 PM   #109
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

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Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, if I understand Novick Sensei's position (yea, I know, fat chance of that), the movement he uses is to "let" the uke fall, not to "strike" or "take or break balance". It is a subtle distinction in intent, but since ki follows mind (intent) it may make for quite the difference in execution.

These subtle distinctions in thought are really very fascinating.
You got it Lynn,, well put. And to me, there ends up indeed being a difference in execution, on a few levels, including feeling. And in my experience, sometimes two things can look the same but in the end, are actually not. I've dealt with that for years.

LN

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Old 04-30-2007, 07:00 PM   #110
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
sometimes two things can look the same but in the end, are actually not.
Yep, looks (and words) are deceiving. Aikido has always been that way for me. How it looked was one thing, but when I felt the real thing, now that was a convincer.

I'm gonna give your reframe a try and see what happens.

Rei, Domo.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 05-01-2007, 12:44 AM   #111
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Sometimes, what looks like an atemi is not an atemi.
And sometimces, what doesn't look like an atemi is an atemi.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 05-01-2007, 05:23 AM   #112
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
You got it Lynn,, well put. And to me, there ends up indeed being a difference in execution, on a few levels, including feeling. And in my experience, sometimes two things can look the same but in the end, are actually not. I've dealt with that for years.

LN
Hello lynn larry

Yes that i, what i was under the impression Larry was saying, I was not really argumenting against that. May be I was not clear.
What I was trying to get at was that our intent only concerns ourselves our opponent can take it with a different meaning.
It is like written communication on a post I intend to mean something but when someone who reads it may very well understand something else.

The Newtonian expression of Larry intent is occupying the same physical space as one effect of an atemi.
Namely to To make him move and to prevent him to go somewhere

Larry does not mean it as an atemi but striking an atemi that do not make contact will produce the same result.
We will let Uke fall on his own accord.

Yes there is a difference in felling for us and may be for uke (but we can not guaranty that he got our intent right so ).
What I am trying to say is that I believe that the difference are at a subjective level for us but I do not believe that in the Newtonian physics world there is that much difference.

phil

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Old 05-01-2007, 07:02 AM   #113
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Francis Takahashi Sensei would say its all posture and position. If you are in the right posture and the right position (at the right time), the uke will do the rest.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 05-03-2007, 09:23 AM   #114
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Still enjoying this thread immensely....

Quote:
Many of the body/arm/hand motions that I use to complete the movement of a technique, are sword strike movements.
I know that my own instructor (Yoshinkan) uses sword strikes in many of his demonstration waza, especially if there are multiple attackers. He enters and cuts, enters, turns and cuts, over and over...if you aren't prepared for the ukemi, it can really hurt! And he is being careful...

I'd hate to receive one of those cuts when he wasn't being careful...

Best,
Ron (and I've been hit a fare amount...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-03-2007, 10:22 AM   #115
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Francis Takahashi Sensei would say its all posture and position. If you are in the right posture and the right position (at the right time), the uke will do the rest.
Lynn, with respect to Takahashi san, I would also add something that I think many people do not consider strongly enough. Along with being in the right posture, the right positional relationship at the right time with uke... a huge necessary element is INTENT. This, I think, is really part of posture along with metsuke.

I notice that often people assume that their intent is correct but often is filled with, "is this gonna work.. who's watching me that I want to please..." etc.

Another aspect of intent must include uke's intent... since once engaged, tori and uke are one. Even if uke's intent is weak, etc. it is part of tori's taking of the sente and keeping it.

If all of this is taking place, then the rest "just happens."

I have a suspicion this is most likely what Takahashi meant but many do not understand so they do not pay attention to it.

Chuck Clark
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Old 05-03-2007, 10:28 AM   #116
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Still enjoying this thread immensely....

Quote:
"LN: Many of the body/arm/hand motions that I use to complete the movement of a technique, are sword strike movements.
I know that my own instructor (Yoshinkan) uses sword strikes in many of his demonstration waza, especially if there are multiple attackers. He enters and cuts, enters, turns and cuts, over and over...if you aren't prepared for the ukemi, it can really hurt! And he is being careful...

I'd hate to receive one of those cuts when he wasn't being careful...

Best,
Ron (and I've been hit a fare amount...)
When I said I use sword strikes, in this case I didn't mean as atemi per se - I meant as the movement that usually finally completes the technique. Often, for me, the final movement of a technique is a dropping motion/releasing of the center followed by the arm(s)/hand(s). That's where the "sword strike" comes into play for me.

In my Aikido, what often looks like atemi is most likely a movement to make sure I have my hand/arm in the right place to protect myself from uke's other hand deliberately or wildly striking, not as likely to be an unbalancing move/strike. If I "need" an atemi to unbalance someone in every or most situations, then to me, I am not in the right position in the first place to execute a throw. If I am in the right position, I wouldn't/shouldn't necessarily need the atemi to unbalance in the first place. Now, an argument, I think, might be made that one needs atemi to get into the right position in the first place, but in most cases, not to me.

But, I have never said that I -never- use atemi. I do, sometimes, in various ways. I just feel that (1) it needs to be used very carefully, so as not to allow the roles to be reversed and nage becomes the attacker, (2) it is not overly-relied on to make one's technique successful, and (3) it is not used in a way that begins to motivate nage "doing something to" uke in the sense of how I use that concept.

I have mostly been responding to statements like (these are just examples, I'm not singling anyone out):

- "There is no Aikido without Atemi. that is of course if you practice Aikido as a Martial Art."

- "I frankly don't see how Aikido exists in absence of atemi."

- "You seem to be from the aikido as movement practice camp. Personally, I don't really consider that to be aikido, as it lacks any martial component."

- "If you take the atemi out of Aikido there is no Budo. It's just a dance."

I understand these kinds of statements, but I come from a different place, where these are Not necessarily always true in all cases, that's all.

I've never said that there is no place at all for atemi in Aikido. But the where, when, how, and intention behind it are all important to me.

LN

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Old 05-03-2007, 10:48 AM   #117
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Nice post...

Quote:
When I said I use sword strikes, in this case I didn't mean as atemi per se - I meant as the movement that usually finally completes the technique. Often, for me, the final movement of a technique is a dropping motion/releasing of the center followed by the arm(s)/hand(s). That's where the "sword strike" comes into play for me.
In the case of my instructor, I *believe* he would agree...my perception of the described waza is that balance is broken on irimi, zanshin is accompanied by atemi (sword strike), with the goal of being able to finish the attacker if needed. In other words, one attack, one waza. He is NOT hitting someone to break their balance, he is in fact hitting someone whose balance is already broken, working with the scenario being enacted of multiple attackers in a martial setting.

I've noticed from my days in kickboxing and from watching boxing, many, if not most knockouts occur once the opponant is unbalanced in some way...or if they do not see the blow coming. It can be difficult to prepare to receive a blow while flying upside down through the air with the ground rushing up at you...

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-03-2007, 04:18 PM   #118
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Larry:

I don't necessarily think that I am differing at all with you. I referred to George's piece on Atemi for a particular reason. A vital strike does not have to be a percussive blow. By moving in tune with the attacker so that we have changed our relationship to each other with the nage occupying the center line in a manner that forces the attacker to be off balance and move around the center line is a powerful atemi without the necessity of a punch. The vital strike is an unbalancing of the attacker through a variety of movements.

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Old 05-03-2007, 05:03 PM   #119
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
... a huge necessary element is INTENT. This, I think, is really part of posture along with metsuke.
...
I have a suspicion this is most likely what Takahashi meant but many do not understand so they do not pay attention to it.
Osu,

Yes, total agreement. Posture is the nonverbal behavioral manifestation of one's internal state, intent.

I am sure Takahashi Sensei offered many insights I did not (and still don't) understand. But I look forward to getting a glimpse.

Rei, Domo.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 05-03-2007, 05:04 PM   #120
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
But the where, when, how, and intention behind it are all important to me.
Osu,

And to many of us.

Rei, Domo.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 05-03-2007, 05:13 PM   #121
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Perhaps the subtle variations in how peoole characterize what Atemi is, makes it difficult to really fully know if one person is on the same page as another person. Hard to say.

LN

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Old 05-03-2007, 07:05 PM   #122
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
Perhaps the subtle variations in how peoole characterize what Atemi is, makes it difficult to really fully know if one person is on the same page as another person. Hard to say.

LN
Well it seems there is no real differance in our interpretation or application then and this is just a bit of semantic dithering over the interpretation of the word "Atemi"

William Hazen
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Old 05-03-2007, 07:38 PM   #123
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Well it seems there is no real differance in our interpretation or application then and this is just a bit of semantic dithering over the interpretation of the word "Atemi"

William Hazen
I suppose that's one way to interpret what I wrote, but that interpretation would have nothing to do with what I was actually discussing.

LN

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Old 05-04-2007, 12:15 AM   #124
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I suppose that's one way to interpret what I wrote, but that interpretation would have nothing to do with what I was actually discussing.

LN
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Old 05-05-2007, 03:28 PM   #125
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Re: Atemi waza: good or bad for Aikido?

If your aikido is good then you can do any thing you want why bother with atemi

stan
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