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Old 05-04-2007, 11:19 PM   #51
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Basically, going off of what Mike said above, they take issue with people saying, "Yeah, well I could throw that MMA guy by redirecting his energy." And they respond, "Okay. Why don't you and him have a sparring match so you can demonstrate this?" Aikido people typically just shut up at that point. Having seen nothing to change their minds, the BS.Net people retain their view that aikido is ineffective, and call the aikido person a twit for making ostentatious claims.
I'd like to clarify that I've never actually seen such an exchange happen in precisely those terms. Rather, I think it's more that BS.netters take issue with aikido people who talk about their art and training being "effective" without any repeatable evidence. On the other hand, the arts they consider legit have, in their view, proven their utility time and again.
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Old 05-04-2007, 11:54 PM   #52
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Avi Feygin wrote: View Post
Also 1 more question why is it that bullshido constantly is picking on you guys???
Quote:
Maxwell Jones wrote: View Post
Bullshido.com is largely unmoderated, and its stated goal is to attack those schools that they view as inferior. As a result it's packed with individuals who insist on telling everyone how much more manly they are than everyone else. But if you're asking why they seem to target aikido specifically, the reasons seem to be that aikidoka are generally unwilling to "prove" themselves in mixed martial arts competitions, honor odd Japanese traditions, and deemphasize the the use of force in favor of the use of ki.
Take the jackasses at Bullshido, and any martial arts forum for that matter, with a grain of salt. Anyone can be a "virtual tough guy." The reality is, they're all bluster and you never know if they're speaking from personal experience or talking out of their ass. Deal with real live people who challenge you in person, they're the people you should concern yourself with. How many of those BS.net dorks acually go to those "throwdown" events? A mere fraction of a percent of the active posters, I'm sure. Perhaps I'd be impressed with the trolls at BS.net if they begin posting "street fight" videos of themselves proving their own mettle. Or, better yet, candid footage of themselves going into their local aikido dojo and issuing challenges. We all know that none of these things would occur on even an occasional basis. However, everybody is entitled to their opinions...

Quote:
Mike Haftel wrote: View Post
It's because Aikidoka generally try and argue with them and try to justify how effective they think Aikido is....

People won't pick on you over at bullshido.net as long as you have no grand illusions about what your own abilities are and about what you think your art represents or embodies.

But, I've never met anybody who could really defend themselves by relying SOLELY on the principles and techniques learnt in the typical Aikido curriculum around today.

I think that is what a lot of people are implying when they argue about an art's effecitiveness.
Fair enough. I'd agree in large part with what you're saying. The issue isn't the curriculum...it's how it's practiced and what level of intensity is involved in training.

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
BS.net's big thing is aliveness and empirical demonstration. Aliveness means training with an actively resisting partner who has a way of "winning" the interaction. As for empirical demonstration, well, they generally favor arts that people have trained in and showed in cross-art sparring matches. E.g., they like judo, because people who know judo have demonstrated that it "works" in a freestyle competition. They like Muay Thai for the same reason. And so on.

Basically, going off of what Mike said above, they take issue with people saying, "Yeah, well I could throw that MMA guy by redirecting his energy." And they respond, "Okay. Why don't you and him have a sparring match so you can demonstrate this?" Aikido people typically just shut up at that point. Having seen nothing to change their minds, the BS.Net people retain their view that aikido is ineffective, and call the aikido person a twit for making ostentatious claims.

Regarding the topic of this thread, though, BS.net has much the same complaint about hapkido as it does about aikido.
Yours truly began a thread about this very issue a few weeks ago...
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12360
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Old 05-04-2007, 11:55 PM   #53
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
BS.net's big thing is aliveness and empirical demonstration.
Don't forget anonymity.
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Old 05-04-2007, 11:56 PM   #54
Dewey
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
I'd like to clarify that I've never actually seen such an exchange happen in precisely those terms. Rather, I think it's more that BS.netters take issue with aikido people who talk about their art and training being "effective" without any repeatable evidence. On the other hand, the arts they consider legit have, in their view, proven their utility time and again.
Yes, I'd concur with this. I read your clarification after I posted my previous response. For some folks, video evidence is sufficient. For others, a broken joint or limb...sometimes both!

Last edited by Dewey : 05-04-2007 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 05-05-2007, 12:08 AM   #55
Aikibu
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Mike Haftel wrote: View Post
It's because Aikidoka generally try and argue with them and try to justify how effective they think Aikido is. While, on the other hand, Iaido has no real claim to "street effectiveness" because the art's focus is not on combat, but on drawing the sword and use of kata.

That, and you can't exactly carry a sword around and use it in a fight in today's society.

People won't pick on you over at bullshido.net as long as you have no grand illusions about what your own abilities are and about what you think your art represents or embodies.

I love Aikido. I really do.

But, I've never met anybody who could really defend themselves by relying SOLELY on the principles and techniques learnt in the typical Aikido curriculum around today.

I think that is what a lot of people are implying when they argue about an art's effecitiveness.
LOL...Look...Again having been there and done that I find Bulshido to be the exact opposite of how you portray it... There are very few redeeming qualities with regard to the behaviour of most of the folks there for anything not "Combat Ninja Viking MMA approved" One of the Moderators wanted to challenge me to a back ally "No holds barred fight to the finish" because he could not stand it when anyone presented a dissenting point of view in regard to Aikido. If you have never met anyone who has been able to defend themselves with Aikido well then you simply have not been around that much or perhaps you misunderstand what Aikido's purpose is.

I am cool with that...If some of the folks want to put in serious work dissing Aikido or other Gendai/Koryu Arts more power to them.

The whole theme of Aikido is that destructive violence is not the answer to anything and one trip to the Local VA Hospital or Prison will prove that to anyone.

If you think for a second otherwise well....Been there...Done that...You may come around to seeing Aikido's purpose as I have or you're just another ticket waiting to get punched. The choice is yours.

William Hazen

"Blessed are the meek...For they shall inherit the earth"
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Old 05-05-2007, 02:30 AM   #56
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Aikido is supposed to be an internal art. Internal to me is learning about yourself and what makes you tick and respond. It really is about overcoming the external aspects of life and realizing that we cannot effect what others do or say directly, but that we can choose our responses to what they do or say.

The choices we make may be skillful or unskillful.

As such, I think we walk a fine line between our concern for the external...that is we cannot totally ignore it or we become so focused on "us" that we do not respond appropriately.

Most of the time though we focus way to much on the external things that do not matter, such as what someone says on a website, or perversions such as defending our honor, reputation, etc. These things become distractions to our growth and development.

Anyway, we have to learn to pick through the static and garbage to find the elements of truth out there that we can learn from. Bullshido and Aikiweb are both like that for me.

Effectiveness is an emotional and slippery term. Not easy to define, nor to prove and it is subject to everyone's paradiqm and perspective. What we need to do with the term of effectiveness is really seek hard to see what are all the various angles, truths, and perspectives of what effectiveness can mean.

I have found that my definition of what is effectiveness (or aliveness), has expanded and changed over the last several years. In that respect it has not invalidated much of what I have learned in my past TMA or aikido dojos...but it has changed how I viewed the applications or appropriateness of it in many ways.

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Old 05-05-2007, 10:13 AM   #57
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Avi Feygin wrote: View Post
yeah i know but as a fellow martial artist i was insulted for you. So i though Aikidoka should get a chance to answer it.

Also 1 more question why is it that bullshido constantly is picking on you guys???
Honestly...this is beginning to sound trollish to me. Anyone else?
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Old 05-05-2007, 10:23 AM   #58
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

if i am being a troll i apologize i am not trying to be inflammatory intentionally.
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Old 05-05-2007, 11:00 AM   #59
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Dan Botari wrote: View Post
Honestly...this is beginning to sound trollish to me. Anyone else?
Raising the issue of why group X with art-evaluation method A thinks aikido is "wussy" or "unproven"/"ineffective" is not, I don't think, trollish. It's a legitimate question.
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Old 05-05-2007, 11:25 AM   #60
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Raising the issue of why group X with art-evaluation method A thinks aikido is "wussy" or "unproven"/"ineffective" is not, I don't think, trollish. It's a legitimate question.
Not to join in on the 'trollish' thoughts here.......(however thanks for that new language term for me as I think it applies in a lot instances, otherwise)

About the above quote.....This is the crux of Jitsu (sp?) and Do.

Is it really their 'art' that they are evaluating or their combat ability. In terms of artfulness and craft, if you find a well practicing aikidoka, you will find a tactician, a moving philosopher, and a supreme protector who inhabits the grace and power of nature. In terms of combat, you will find a battlefield allie who will carry you when you neeed to be carried, walk with you when you need to be accompanied, and fight for your body if the circumstance should arrive, and love your family if you should lose your life. Is it possible ,that in combat , we forget that there are nurses, priests, doctors, communicators, bridge builders and peace forces all of whom operate in the bloody realm of war. All of whom provide human support, and often love.

Everything else we call combat may very well just be sport.

It's a case by case issue.

thanks for the chance to voice my thoughts.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 05-05-2007 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 05-05-2007, 11:26 AM   #61
Mike Haftel
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
LOL...Look...Again having been there and done that I find Bulshido to be the exact opposite of how you portray it... There are very few redeeming qualities with regard to the behaviour of most of the folks there for anything not "Combat Ninja Viking MMA approved" One of the Moderators wanted to challenge me to a back ally "No holds barred fight to the finish" because he could not stand it when anyone presented a dissenting point of view in regard to Aikido. If you have never met anyone who has been able to defend themselves with Aikido well then you simply have not been around that much or perhaps you misunderstand what Aikido's purpose is.

I am cool with that...If some of the folks want to put in serious work dissing Aikido or other Gendai/Koryu Arts more power to them.

The whole theme of Aikido is that destructive violence is not the answer to anything and one trip to the Local VA Hospital or Prison will prove that to anyone.

If you think for a second otherwise well....Been there...Done that...You may come around to seeing Aikido's purpose as I have or you're just another ticket waiting to get punched. The choice is yours.

William Hazen

"Blessed are the meek...For they shall inherit the earth"
I think you vastly misunderstood my point.

My point was, that most Aikidoka have "grand illusions" about what their own abilities are and about what their art embodies. And this is why a lot of people criticize Aikidoka.

I'm not criticising the art, itself. I like Aikido and I've been studying it for about six years.

I am criticising the average Aikidoka, not Aikido.

For example:

One day, at practice, a 2nd dan Aikidoka came to train with us. This particular person drops by from time to time.

For the life of him, he couldn't do a single joint lock on me. I wasn't even resisting him. He actually blamed me (the attacker) for his own inability. He said I wasn't being a good Uke. That I wasn't "blending properly." And that Aikido's goal was to promote harmony and such; and that because I wasn't taking the fall or giving in to the technique I was somehow at falt. One of his justifications he gave was that my tendons and ligaments were too strong and joint locks were hard to do on me. That's just ridiculous.

He basically scolded me becaue he lacked the ability to properly utilize the principles which had learnt...or had NOT learnt.

I know you're going to say that it's just him, or just me, or that I just haven't been exposed to "real Aikido" before. That's just a lame excuse, to me.

This same type of Aikidoka are the ones going around arguing with people about how effective Aikido is and about how skilled they are.

They have "grand illusions."
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Old 05-05-2007, 11:32 AM   #62
Mike Haftel
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post

Fair enough. I'd agree in large part with what you're saying. The issue isn't the curriculum...it's how it's practiced and what level of intensity is involved in training.
Yes, I agree. I should have been more specific. The IDEAL curriculum of Aikido is fine. It's how it is practiced that is the issue.

Maybe I'm just jaded.
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Old 05-05-2007, 12:57 PM   #63
Aikibu
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Mike Haftel wrote: View Post
I think you vastly misunderstood my point.

My point was, that most Aikidoka have "grand illusions" about what their own abilities are and about what their art embodies. And this is why a lot of people criticize Aikidoka.

I'm not criticising the art, itself. I like Aikido and I've been studying it for about six years.

I am criticising the average Aikidoka, not Aikido.

For example:

One day, at practice, a 2nd dan Aikidoka came to train with us. This particular person drops by from time to time.

For the life of him, he couldn't do a single joint lock on me. I wasn't even resisting him. He actually blamed me (the attacker) for his own inability. He said I wasn't being a good Uke. That I wasn't "blending properly." And that Aikido's goal was to promote harmony and such; and that because I wasn't taking the fall or giving in to the technique I was somehow at falt. One of his justifications he gave was that my tendons and ligaments were too strong and joint locks were hard to do on me. That's just ridiculous.

He basically scolded me becaue he lacked the ability to properly utilize the principles which had learnt...or had NOT learnt.

I know you're going to say that it's just him, or just me, or that I just haven't been exposed to "real Aikido" before. That's just a lame excuse, to me.

This same type of Aikidoka are the ones going around arguing with people about how effective Aikido is and about how skilled they are.

They have "grand illusions."
I have had a account there for 3 years now though i have not posted in a long time (what is the point) Like I said and as has been pointed out by some other posters here. The gambit of the posts reflect the age of and experiance of the posters which IMHO is about 13 or perhaps 16 on a good day. VERY RARELY will you see an "Aikido Troll" go over there and pick fights with folks about the supposed superiority of Aikido versus "Throwdown proven." Combat Viking Ninja MMA (which has nothing to do with street effectivness.) Since all that most of these kids do "on the street" is throw the occasional punch at some obnoxius drunk at a kegger. I don't see what value Bullshido gains in promoting "realistic" anything considering MMA is no different than anything developed in the last 2000 years and would be better served to grow and promote itself as a legitimate discipline (which it is).

I have been cross training in MMA for about 5 years now and I highly value what it brings to my Aikido. I have" the Aikido is for wusses" verbal exchange at least once every couple of weeks or have some sparring partner grab my wrist and ask me "what am I going to do about it." I just laugh most of the time and say, "Nothing." The guy lets go and we hang out and have a good time training and he is completely unaware that I have just performed an Aikido "technique" on him.

I am of the opinion pitting Peanut Butter versus Honey is a complete waste of my time... or as a wise Sensei once said to me, Life is a smorsgasbord. Some folks like peanut butter, some like honey, The key to enjoying it is to let the other folks have all they want of what they like, and not to hold it against them if they don't have your taste in food. There is plenty enough to enjoy for everyone. That is Aikido.

William Hazen
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Old 05-05-2007, 01:08 PM   #64
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
About the above quote.....This is the crux of Jitsu (sp?) and Do.

Is it really their 'art' that they are evaluating or their combat ability.
(Aside: Jitsu is a perfectly legit spelling, though the standard romanization is jutsu.) I think it's absolutely on-topic to mention this. Do I take more (for myself and to give to others) from the jutsu or the do of aikido? Well, while being a costumed superhero beating up muggers would be fun, I don't think it's going to be my contribution in life. Rather, it's all the things you mention above: being strong in hard times, supporting others, being a good person. People more eloquent than myself have expounded on this theme countless times.

However, I'm also reminded of something the late Kensho Furuya said in his book "Kodo": jutsu is a part of do. You don't do one or the other. A do contains a jutsu, a skillset at the core of the study. Someone who wants to study chado needs to know the jutsu of how to serve the tea, how to bring it to the right temperature, how to greet the guest and make them feel welcome. Learning to do those things is not why they study their art, but rather they pursue their do in part by polishing these jutsu to the fullest.

For this reason, I believe that aikidoka must develop clean, effective, and internalized aikijutsu. I'm not referring to the separate art (Daito-ryu), but rather to the literal term: "aiki techniques", which are a critical part of the "aiki way." I'll turn to Mike Haftel's anecdote for an example.

Quote:
Mike Haftel wrote: View Post
One day, at practice, a 2nd dan Aikidoka came to train with us. [...] For the life of him, he couldn't do a single joint lock on me.
Sometimes I see BS.Netters who have this crazy idea that they're studying "for the street". This is an absurd reason to study martial arts for most people nowadays. However, a budoka who cannot fight is like a chajin who makes bad tea or agitates the guest.

Quote:
Mike Haftel wrote: View Post
Yes, I agree. I should have been more specific. The IDEAL curriculum of Aikido is fine. It's how it is practiced that is the issue.
Which brings me back to the original topic. The reason why some people think that both Hapkido and Aikido are "for wusses lol" is I think given a more intelligent expression in the following video:

Matt Thornton on "Aliveness" in Martial Arts
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AWfK6aqWiNU

Some people (perhaps understandably) find his evangelizing tone silly. I sure found it goofy when he claimed that kata were "oppressive", like "the Catholic church". But I think he's got a good basic point.

Do I think we should throw out kata? No; I think he's being pretty myopic there. But it's a useful perspective to consider.

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 05-05-2007 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 05-05-2007, 02:16 PM   #65
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

I seem to recall that most of the founder's of the various TMA's all had this common sort of background story of being a "wuss" who needed to strengthen themselves.

Quote:
Avi Feygin wrote: View Post
true on one hand that even mma isn't true street fighting but isn't it somewhat closer to it?
When MMA fighters are allowed to strike people in the back of the head, gouge eyes, bite, strike vital areas, hit with a bat or a pipe, cut someone with a blade while they're trying to clinch or grapple, and so forth, it'll be more like the street fighting I've experienced.

To compare it (or aikido) to street fighting is really ludicrous.

MMA is a highly skilled sport with very specific parameters that are nothing like street fighting. If you tried half the things I see people do in MMA fights on the street against someone who really really wants to hurt you and is skilled, you will die.

If you're comparing a skilled fighter against the average schmo on the street, we're not speaking the same language.

The same observations hold about many people's aikido training (particularly against the knife). I believe that the common complaint on BS is the self-confident martial attitude of many who really are unprepared.

In any art or mixture of arts you choose, you will find adherents who are unconsciously incompetent, consciously incompetent, consciously competent, and unconsciously competent (is that the right progression?).

So...

Define your goals. Find a place to train where you can meet your goals. End of story.

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:
Do I take more (for myself and to give to others) from the jutsu or the do of aikido?
I don't see it that way at all. They are inseparable in my training.

Jutsu is what I do on the mat. I study technique and all the physical, emotional, psychological, and spiritual (sic) ramifications of that.

Do is the way I live my life. It is informed by the problem solving skills I learn and apply to my training on the mat while practicing jutsu.

I understand that many people teach and try to apply the principles of 'harmony' (which is just about the poorest choice of possible words for translating 'ai', IMO) on the mat, but I think that they are trying to apply an outside concept onto a real interaction without first understanding the interaction and so a lot of training I see as getting misdirected and not seeing the real underlying (deeper) issues and principles.

To rephrase, my understanding of 'harmony' is fed through my training and understanding of what makes a technique really operate in the most efficient, least harmful fashion instead of the other way around. The other way around is the way I perceive many people's practice.

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:
Do I think we should throw out kata? No; I think he's being pretty myopic there. But it's a useful perspective to consider.
I fundamentally agree with your posted video except for one item. You HAVE to train the patterns; you just have to apply the aliveness concepts to those patterns or they become as useless he describes. If you train without the patterns with a resistant opponent, only the 'geniuses' will get any good at this.

I think that's one of the problems in much modern aikido practice; they throw out 'kata' on the basis of a single quote of the Founder's. Actually, very arguably, they mostly only practice kata, but refuse to acknowledge it or practice it as such. But any practice where the each partner knows the intended technique and who is going to attack and who is going to fall is practicing kata and they are doing it without the aliveness described since they know who will always fall down.

I have found the training when practiced without acknowledged kata becomes less informed because so few people really know why a particular form of a technique is different than a similar form or technique and even why it might be performed a certain way and usually can only say: "this is the way we do it" and speculate on the details.

For myself, I'm changing my training and focusing on kata training to inform and educate my basic fundamental coordination and to learn specifically WHY various techniques are designed the way they are designed. When I hit the technique correctly, yes, I'll know who will fall down, but if I leave any opening, my partner will inform me as happened last week, by launching me across the mat to land on my ass.

With that kind of base, I'll be able to deepen my randori training and make it more 'alive'.

Regards,

Last edited by tarik : 05-05-2007 at 02:28 PM.

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 05-05-2007, 02:37 PM   #66
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

here's my thing about MMA guys. If you want a realistic defense system that is modern, learn to shoot a gun.
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Old 05-05-2007, 02:45 PM   #67
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
The guy lets go and we hang out and have a good time training and he is completely unaware that I have just performed an Aikido "technique" on him.
Love it!

I always think that when my friends ask how an Aikidoka would fair in a MMA fight. I say, "Have you ever seen one lose?"

Perhaps not getting into the 'cage' in the first place is the aiki victory.
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Old 05-05-2007, 02:59 PM   #68
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
I seem to recall that most of the founder's of the various TMA's all had this common sort of background story of being a "wuss" who needed to strengthen themselves.

When MMA fighters are allowed to strike people in the back of the head, gouge eyes, bite, strike vital areas, hit with a bat or a pipe, cut someone with a blade while they're trying to clinch or grapple, and so forth, it'll be more like the street fighting I've experienced.

To compare it (or aikido) to street fighting is really ludicrous.

MMA is a highly skilled sport with very specific parameters that are nothing like street fighting. If you tried half the things I see people do in MMA fights on the street against someone who really really wants to hurt you and is skilled, you will die.

If you're comparing a skilled fighter against the average schmo on the street, we're not speaking the same language.

The same observations hold about many people's aikido training (particularly against the knife). I believe that the common complaint on BS is the self-confident martial attitude of many who really are unprepared.

In any art or mixture of arts you choose, you will find adherents who are unconsciously incompetent, consciously incompetent, consciously competent, and unconsciously competent (is that the right progression?).

So...

Define your goals. Find a place to train where you can meet your goals. End of story.

I don't see it that way at all. They are inseparable in my training.

Jutsu is what I do on the mat. I study technique and all the physical, emotional, psychological, and spiritual (sic) ramifications of that.

Do is the way I live my life. It is informed by the problem solving skills I learn and apply to my training on the mat while practicing jutsu.

I understand that many people teach and try to apply the principles of 'harmony' (which is just about the poorest choice of possible words for translating 'ai', IMO) on the mat, but I think that they are trying to apply an outside concept onto a real interaction without first understanding the interaction and so a lot of training I see as getting misdirected and not seeing the real underlying (deeper) issues and principles.

To rephrase, my understanding of 'harmony' is fed through my training and understanding of what makes a technique really operate in the most efficient, least harmful fashion instead of the other way around. The other way around is the way I perceive many people's practice.

I fundamentally agree with your posted video except for one item. You HAVE to train the patterns; you just have to apply the aliveness concepts to those patterns or they become as useless he describes. If you train without the patterns with a resistant opponent, only the 'geniuses' will get any good at this.

I think that's one of the problems in much modern aikido practice; they throw out 'kata' on the basis of a single quote of the Founder's. Actually, very arguably, they mostly only practice kata, but refuse to acknowledge it or practice it as such. But any practice where the each partner knows the intended technique and who is going to attack and who is going to fall is practicing kata and they are doing it without the aliveness described since they know who will always fall down.

I have found the training when practiced without acknowledged kata becomes less informed because so few people really know why a particular form of a technique is different than a similar form or technique and even why it might be performed a certain way and usually can only say: "this is the way we do it" and speculate on the details.

For myself, I'm changing my training and focusing on kata training to inform and educate my basic fundamental coordination and to learn specifically WHY various techniques are designed the way they are designed. When I hit the technique correctly, yes, I'll know who will fall down, but if I leave any opening, my partner will inform me as happened last week, by launching me across the mat to land on my ass.

With that kind of base, I'll be able to deepen my randori training and make it more 'alive'.

Regards,
Perhaps I'm off subject, but I'm inspired to continue the conversation.

I haven't yet heard your specific tales of streeet fighting in the all of the years I've known you. And, upon reflection, I realize that in all of that time you haven't heard mine either [ although at a potluck dinner we once were at together a couple of years back I was chastised by members of our previous community for relating a story where I stopped on the street to intervene in the bloody pummeling of a young man who had been 'jumped' by gangsters who thought he was black ( it was dark out, as it was 12:00 a.m.) I was told, "sounds like your hanging out in the wrong neighborhoods." The young man whose life I saved didn't feel that way, I'm sure.]

Personally, I have used the practice of Aikido to trancend the street. I don't need anyone talking to me about how 'it works on the street' never having asked where did I come from, first( a question Tarik has humbly asked me in the past) and never having been there themselves. For me, the street, my life and the dojo are the same. The quality has significantly improved.

We've had some engaging study together and it sure has been a fruitful practice. I'm thrilled you are continuing in your integrous inquiry of the art.

jen

Thanks for your post Tarik.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 05-05-2007 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 05-05-2007, 03:11 PM   #69
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Just one quick thought about character.

O'Sensei instructed us never to criticize other teachers or traditions as it pulls us away from our own effective practice and inquiry of ourselves. He was firm about this for the cause of our characters and progress along 'the way'. When other people are critical I understand that they have not embodied this practice ( at least at the moment). Period. So don't be so distressed about others criticism.

'Aikido is for self-correction and not for the correction of others'.
- O'Sensei

Easily said; a lifetime practice.
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Old 05-05-2007, 03:41 PM   #70
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
When MMA fighters are allowed to strike people in the back of the head, gouge eyes, bite, strike vital areas, hit with a bat or a pipe, cut someone with a blade while they're trying to clinch or grapple, and so forth, it'll be more like the street fighting I've experienced.
Indeed, maybe the thing is to imagine that aikido waza (and the jujutsu waza from which it came) were meant for a situation where you don't want to clinch up with the opponent, or employ grappling maneuvers that leave you open for, say, a knife strike.

On the other hand, it seems to be the consensus that aikido waza are no good for taking a knife from a person who actually has it out.
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Old 05-05-2007, 03:47 PM   #71
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Indeed, maybe the thing is to imagine that aikido waza (and the jujutsu waza from which it came) were meant for a situation where you don't want to clinch up with the opponent, or employ grappling maneuvers that leave you open for, say, a knife strike.

On the other hand, it seems to be the consensus that aikido waza are no good for taking a knife from a person who actually has it out.
Forgive me, but 'consensus' meaning whom?
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Old 05-05-2007, 04:14 PM   #72
Roman Kremianski
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
It's not possible to safely or ethically replicate "street" conditions in training. MMA nuts often believe the fight ring does, but it doesn't any better than anything else.
Opinions like that baffle me the most. MMA is not street fighting. But it's the closest you're going to get to unarmed street fighting. Much closer then regular sparring or kata or cooperative opponents.

The Bullshido guys think we're dorks because Aikidoka are always bringing swords, knives, guns, and eye gouges into the equation every time the effectiveness of Aikido in an un-armed situation is brought up.
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Old 05-05-2007, 04:53 PM   #73
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Forgive me, but 'consensus' meaning whom?
You needn't ask forgiveness. This isn't the Catholic Church or anything. (Oh, wacky Matt Thornton. )

One example: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=577

The closest I've heard someone come is well-summarized by Christopher Wilson in that thread: "In a knife fight, the winner only gets cut." Alternately, I could believe that if you're assuming both people are in feudal Japanese armor, and only "strong" attacks count (ruling out quick slashes)...okay, maybe it's doable then.

But I've never heard an aikido person claim (let alone convincingly demonstrate) that aikido "tantodori" has anything to do with disarming a knife-wielding opponent actually out to cut you (in an unarmored context). Put another way, I've never heard anyone claim they could handle the classic "put on white coveralls and give uke a marker" test.

Of course, it'd be stunning if they did. Even practitioners of arts like Eskrima, whose training is focused on knife techniques, do not claim to be able to reliably handle a knife-wielding opponent. I'm sure they'd feel mighty stupid if they learned that aikido people, who spend far less time on knife techniques, could outdo them in their own specialty.

If you can reliably take a marker from me, I'll drop my current aikido plans and become your student right then and there.

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Opinions like that baffle me the most. MMA is not street fighting. But it's the closest you're going to get to unarmed street fighting. Much closer then regular sparring or kata or cooperative opponents.

The Bullshido guys think we're dorks because Aikidoka are always bringing swords, knives, guns, and eye gouges into the equation every time the effectiveness of Aikido in an un-armed situation is brought up.
And I think they're right to complain, honestly. Nobody can really handle a determined ("primary objective: kill you ASAP") attacker with one of the first three. At least, not very reliably. As for eye gouges...well, wear some goggles and award a victory to anyone who can deliver a strong gouge. I don't think it would change results very much. It would make it more dangerous, but the same techniques would be useful. Put another way: who's in a better position to apply back-of-neck hits, throat strikes, eye gouges, and other dangerous strikes (which, by the way, most aikido schools do not exactly drill extensively)? Probably the same person who can win with "safer" strikes or submissions, because they've got the upper hand.

Put another way: sure, MMA is not exactly true fighting, and certainly isn't "combat". But what makes kata practice closer to "real fighting" than MMA?
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Old 05-05-2007, 05:18 PM   #74
Roman Kremianski
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Put another way: sure, MMA is not exactly true fighting, and certainly isn't "combat". But what makes kata practice closer to "real fighting" than MMA?
I'm a bit confused. Are you for or against what I said?

The whole point of my post was to argue that MMA is the closest thing on recorded video we have that comes close to a fight. My post was NOT intended to argue that MMA is in fact just a sport that has nothing to do with real fighting. (Like some people on here are claiming)

I think a lot of people try to ignore MMA because it's their personal fantasy breaker. No one practicing Aikido exclusively likes to admit that they would probably not stand a chance against a knowledgeable well rounded opponent.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 05-05-2007 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 05-05-2007, 05:28 PM   #75
Mark Uttech
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

martial arts fantasies aside, aikido is an art, like ikebana or tea ceremony.You work on yourself, and you deal with the enemies within. O Sensei has said that the only way to cover your openings is to stand and acknowledge your fear of death. The late Terry Dobson sensei once taught a seminar with the theme that 'the uke brings your death'.

In gassho,

Mark
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