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Old 05-04-2007, 10:12 AM   #26
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Avi Feygin wrote: View Post
with his kote on? HAHAHAHAHAHAH priceless
No, bare fisted. Even funnier.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 05-04-2007, 10:20 AM   #27
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
I hate doing this because it might appear rude, but my honest/scientific side compels me: evidence of (your personal) kotegaeshi being an effective and reliable counter to a jab, please. If you think you can provide that evidence yourself, maybe go to a Bullshido.com throwdown in your area sometime, participate in some friendly sparring, and get it on video. (I don't think you're lying, but I've picked up the habit of "video or it didn't happen". It's not a bad ethic for handling forum claims.)
It does appear rude. I have zero desire to provide evidence and publish it on the internet. My desire to feed the idiots and trolls over on bullshido.net is far far far below zero.

It is a bad ethic for handling forum claims because it assumes guilt in the first instance rather than innocence, I don't like the society I live in to function that way. But cos you at least tried to be nice about it I'll explain it to you as best I can (no video, not interested, sorry). At no point in countering a punch or strike of any kind do you ever try to grab the wrist which is the fastest moving part of the strike. Always go for the shoulder and you'll always find a wrist on the end of it unless something is seriously wrong with the guy. It's pretty hard from a jab but easier from a proper punch (they're easier to read). There's more to it than that but I can't really be bothered to explain, and in any case it'd do no good to do so in writing.

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 05-04-2007, 10:30 AM   #28
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

I can understand that. Maybe I'm letting said "idiots and trolls" have too much sway over my approach to things. They can be very persuasive at times; their methodology can sound quite appealing to an aikidoka with anxieties about "being untested".

As for the kotegaeshi, thanks for the advice. I'd realized that snatching a wrist out of the air is ridiculous, and had some notion of catching the forearm and sliding down. But the shoulder: that actually makes more sense to me in terms of depth of entry. I appreciate you sharing that.

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 05-04-2007 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 05-04-2007, 10:43 AM   #29
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
I can understand that. Maybe I'm letting said "idiots and trolls" have too much sway over my approach to things. They can be very persuasive at times; their methodology can sound quite appealing to an aikidoka with anxieties about "being untested".

As for the kotegaeshi, thanks for the advice. I'd realized that snatching a wrist out of the air is ridiculous, and had some notion of catching the forearm and sliding down. But the shoulder: that actually makes more sense to me in terms of depth of entry. I appreciate you sharing that.
No problem

The shoulder is the slowest moving part of the punch (other than the hips) if you extend your arm towards it you can often catch a jab by preventing the upper arm moving forwards (or at least slow it down). Depending on your entry though you need to be careful not to leave yourself open to your partners other hand. The last thing you want is to stop a jab only to open yourself up for a left-hook.

Have fun playing with that. I do

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 05-04-2007, 11:08 AM   #30
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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John Riggs wrote: View Post
2nd Lynn.
Could be said for any dicipline or art.

Aikido is for everyone. Wusses and all. Learning to deal with that and all people is a measure of Agatsu, the product of our training.

Further musings are:
But how does one define 'strong'? I had to be strong through the death and loss of many friends in the last year and Aikido has been my srength. I don't recall kicking anyones @$$ during that time. Although death didn't seem to have the same agenda.
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Old 05-04-2007, 12:52 PM   #31
Roman Kremianski
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
I hate doing this because it might appear rude, but my honest/scientific side compels me: evidence of (your personal) kotegaeshi being an effective and reliable counter to a jab, please. If you think you can provide that evidence yourself, maybe go to a Bullshido.com throwdown in your area sometime, participate in some friendly sparring, and get it on video. (I don't think you're lying, but I've picked up the habit of "video or it didn't happen". It's not a bad ethic for handling forum claims.)
While that's a good idea, I seriously doubt it would mean anything to the Bullshido people. Already a cliche on their forums, they would simply say "Well it wouldn't work on a more skilled opponent".

Every single fight video I've seen always had some Bullshido folks point out that "The opponent sucked. Put Feodor in his place..." etc

In all honesty, even if you put up a video of an Aikidoka controlling an aggressive MMA guy, they would find a million things to rip it up about anyway. That's just the mindset over there.
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Old 05-04-2007, 01:12 PM   #32
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
In all honesty, even if you put up a video of an Aikidoka controlling an aggressive MMA guy, they would find a million things to rip it up about anyway. That's just the mindset over there.
I dunno. The whole thing's rather hypothetical. I think a good number might switch over to, "Well, maybe it works in casual matches, but if it were really a useful art, you'd see professionals cross-training in it." I think at that point those people could be easily accused of retreating to the pseudo-reality they claim TMAers inhabit.

Still, for all it's problems, I kind of like the (at least nominal) attitude of evidence-based judgment.
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Old 05-04-2007, 01:24 PM   #33
Alfonso
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Best you can do is try it yourself and work on your problem with the technique.

Try this; enter to touch the jabbing shoulder (for a right hand jab use the left arm to tap which puts your right arm as cover and slide your hand down the crook of the elbow (tegatana) ; from there you can continue entering or tenkan into uke's elbow when uke recovers balance by stepping forward and turning you should have the wrist for kotegaeshi all served up and ready to go. no wrist catching in that move, and a snapped punch won't be a problem either.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 05-04-2007, 01:35 PM   #34
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
It does appear rude. I have zero desire to provide evidence and publish it on the internet. My desire to feed the idiots and trolls over on bullshido.net is far far far below zero.

It is a bad ethic for handling forum claims because it assumes guilt in the first instance rather than innocence, I don't like the society I live in to function that way. But cos you at least tried to be nice about it I'll explain it to you as best I can (no video, not interested, sorry). At no point in countering a punch or strike of any kind do you ever try to grab the wrist which is the fastest moving part of the strike. Always go for the shoulder and you'll always find a wrist on the end of it unless something is seriously wrong with the guy. It's pretty hard from a jab but easier from a proper punch (they're easier to read). There's more to it than that but I can't really be bothered to explain, and in any case it'd do no good to do so in writing.

Regards

Mike
Actually I do not believe it assumes guilt. Simply stated it is impossible to prove a negative. I can not prove you can't do a wrist lock on a jab. I can not prove I did not rob that store. It is up to the person making a claim to prove what they say is true. This is how science works. Even in the court, the prosecution is saying this guy robbed a store. Now the burden is on them to prove it. If I say I can knock you out over the internet with my chi, it is up to me to prove it, not for you to disprove it. You said it is possible to apply a wrist lock on a arm used to jab. It is up to you to prove it.

However your description on how to do this (by going though the shoulder) is sufficient to me because I already do this. I do not feel this is applying a lock to a jab however, it is simply an easy way to get to the wrist, one that is used in MMA today, namely clinch and grab the wrist. Of course they usually don't wrist lock from there. But the logic is sound.

The problem I see is you feel someone is calling you a liar for challenging you to prove your statements. This is not so.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-04-2007, 02:15 PM   #35
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
The problem I see is you feel someone is calling you a liar for challenging you to prove your statements. This is not so.
Yeah. Can't be bothered to get into it, it's a waste of effort to nitpick.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 05-04-2007, 02:51 PM   #36
maxwelljones
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

I have a confession to make, if it's any more or less relevant to the notion of Aikido being for wusses.

I *AM* a wuss. In each of my keiko thus far (and I haven't had many ...) I've had little issues, like splinters from my jo, my knees when I first sit down, my toes doing shikko sabaki, and especially my keikogi which fits my very atypical body shape poorly, the trousers constantly falling down, etc. I press on, but I groan and whine, so I'm still a wuss.
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Old 05-04-2007, 03:02 PM   #37
Basia Halliop
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
I am not taking aikido yet but i plan to start in the next few months
So, find a dojo that you think you'd like to practice at and try it for a few months, and see what you think yourself. If it doesn't suit you, either because you personally find it 'wussy', or for whatever reason, then stop. If you try it and don't find it wussy (or even if you find it kind of wussy but like it just fine anyway) then go ahead and keep doing it and don't worry about your friend.

It's not like you're asking him to take it up himself or anything.
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Old 05-04-2007, 03:24 PM   #38
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
I dunno. The whole thing's rather hypothetical. I think a good number might switch over to, "Well, maybe it works in casual matches, but if it were really a useful art, you'd see professionals cross-training in it." I think at that point those people could be easily accused of retreating to the pseudo-reality they claim TMAers inhabit.

Still, for all it's problems, I kind of like the (at least nominal) attitude of evidence-based judgment.
You don't know what BS.net is about, isn't it?
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Old 05-04-2007, 03:31 PM   #39
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You don't know what BS.net is about, isn't it?
Maybe I'm a shade too credulous. So far, though, I mostly buy into their logic. It's pretty convincing. "A good martial art should be demonstrably effective against an active adversary."
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Old 05-04-2007, 03:36 PM   #40
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Maybe I'm a shade too credulous. So far, though, I mostly buy into their logic. It's pretty convincing. "A good martial art should be demonstrably effective against an active adversary."
What you mean like aikido is...?

What is it exactly that you mean by 'effective' (MMA types never define it as it is always the weakness in their logic and where there argument falls down) and 'active adversary'

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 05-04-2007, 04:06 PM   #41
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
What is it exactly that you mean by 'effective' (MMA types never define it as it is always the weakness in their logic and where there argument falls down) and 'active adversary'
I seem to recall aikido masters telling challengers, "Please come at me any way you like." That seems like a fair model.
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Old 05-04-2007, 04:31 PM   #42
maxwelljones
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

It's not possible to safely or ethically replicate "street" conditions in training. MMA nuts often believe the fight ring does, but it doesn't any better than anything else. And the notion that we shouldn't be using our art "on the street" without good reason should be obvious to children as well as adults. We *ARE* training for "the street," or rather we should, regardless of whether it's our primary concern, but it's impossible to verify the efficacy of our training methods in this matter.
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Old 05-04-2007, 04:32 PM   #43
Mike Haftel
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
No problem

The shoulder is the slowest moving part of the punch (other than the hips) if you extend your arm towards it you can often catch a jab by preventing the upper arm moving forwards (or at least slow it down). Depending on your entry though you need to be careful not to leave yourself open to your partners other hand. The last thing you want is to stop a jab only to open yourself up for a left-hook.

Have fun playing with that. I do

Mike
In my experience, the hips move quite fast whilst punching. At least, they should since the speed of one's hip movement directly affects the speed and efficiency of the strike.
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Old 05-04-2007, 06:26 PM   #44
pugtm
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

true on one hand that even mma isn't true street fighting but isn't it somewhat closer to it?
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Old 05-04-2007, 07:00 PM   #45
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
So, find a dojo that you think you'd like to practice at and try it for a few months, and see what you think yourself. If it doesn't suit you, either because you personally find it 'wussy', or for whatever reason, then stop. If you try it and don't find it wussy (or even if you find it kind of wussy but like it just fine anyway) then go ahead and keep doing it and don't worry about your friend.

It's not like you're asking him to take it up himself or anything.
yeah i know but as a fellow martial artist i was insulted for you. So i though Aikidoka should get a chance to answer it.

Also 1 more question why is it that bullshido constantly is picking on you guys???
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Old 05-04-2007, 07:15 PM   #46
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

I certainly hope Aikido is for wussies. Why should they be excluded from practicing such a fine and fun martial art?

However, it is weird that such a complaint would come from a Hapkido practitioner. He sounds as ignorant about his own art as he is Aikido!
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Old 05-04-2007, 07:20 PM   #47
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Also 1 more question why is it that bullshido constantly is picking on you guys???
they're afraid of us?
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Old 05-04-2007, 07:22 PM   #48
maxwelljones
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Avi Feygin wrote: View Post
Also 1 more question why is it that bullshido constantly is picking on you guys???
Quote:
Maxwell Jones wrote: View Post
Most of the people I hear making such remarks are supporters of a specific body art, and/or believe that MMA is the ultimate determination of who's a badass and who's a wuss who's wasting time with some art that's too pitiful to show its pimply face in the ring.
Bullshido.com is largely unmoderated, and its stated goal is to attack those schools that they view as inferior. As a result it's packed with individuals who insist on telling everyone how much more manly they are than everyone else. But if you're asking why they seem to target aikido specifically, the reasons seem to be that aikidoka are generally unwilling to "prove" themselves in mixed martial arts competitions, honor odd Japanese traditions, and deemphasize the the use of force in favor of the use of ki.

Incidentally, I've wondered why they don't have the same ire for, say, iaido. It's not because they're afraid of getting cut in half.
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Old 05-04-2007, 10:48 PM   #49
Mike Haftel
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Maxwell Jones wrote: View Post
Bullshido.com is largely unmoderated, and its stated goal is to attack those schools that they view as inferior. As a result it's packed with individuals who insist on telling everyone how much more manly they are than everyone else. But if you're asking why they seem to target aikido specifically, the reasons seem to be that aikidoka are generally unwilling to "prove" themselves in mixed martial arts competitions, honor odd Japanese traditions, and deemphasize the the use of force in favor of the use of ki.

Incidentally, I've wondered why they don't have the same ire for, say, iaido. It's not because they're afraid of getting cut in half.
It's because Aikidoka generally try and argue with them and try to justify how effective they think Aikido is. While, on the other hand, Iaido has no real claim to "street effectiveness" because the art's focus is not on combat, but on drawing the sword and use of kata.

That, and you can't exactly carry a sword around and use it in a fight in today's society.

People won't pick on you over at bullshido.net as long as you have no grand illusions about what your own abilities are and about what you think your art represents or embodies.

I love Aikido. I really do.

But, I've never met anybody who could really defend themselves by relying SOLELY on the principles and techniques learnt in the typical Aikido curriculum around today.

I think that is what a lot of people are implying when they argue about an art's effecitiveness.
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Old 05-04-2007, 10:52 PM   #50
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Avi Feygin wrote: View Post
yeah i know but as a fellow martial artist i was insulted for you. So i though Aikidoka should get a chance to answer it.

Also 1 more question why is it that bullshido constantly is picking on you guys???
BS.net's big thing is aliveness and empirical demonstration. Aliveness means training with an actively resisting partner who has a way of "winning" the interaction. As for empirical demonstration, well, they generally favor arts that people have trained in and showed in cross-art sparring matches. E.g., they like judo, because people who know judo have demonstrated that it "works" in a freestyle competition. They like Muay Thai for the same reason. And so on.

Basically, going off of what Mike said above, they take issue with people saying, "Yeah, well I could throw that MMA guy by redirecting his energy." And they respond, "Okay. Why don't you and him have a sparring match so you can demonstrate this?" Aikido people typically just shut up at that point. Having seen nothing to change their minds, the BS.Net people retain their view that aikido is ineffective, and call the aikido person a twit for making ostentatious claims.

Regarding the topic of this thread, though, BS.net has much the same complaint about hapkido as it does about aikido.

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 05-04-2007 at 10:59 PM.
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