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Old 04-23-2007, 02:15 PM   #26
Budd
 
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Another good groundfighter quote:

"I am a shark. The ground is my ocean. And most people don't even know how to swim...."
Great post, overall and I particularly like the above quote - was that Rigan Machado? I'm pretty sure on it being one of the Machados, but couldn't remember for sure which one . . .

I don't blame people that don't want to train groundfighting. It's a choice. I think it's something worthwhile, but that's just me. Some people just don't like groundfighting/grappling/wrestling. Personally, I don't like getting hit, but that's why I'll occaisionally work out with boxers/kickboxers (where, believe me, I do get hit *ouch*) -- I like to think it ultimately improves my chances of not getting hit.
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Old 04-23-2007, 07:28 PM   #27
nikau
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Great post KIT. AND i agree whole heartedly with practically all of it.

I did security for years as well and while i always told my team NEVER to go to ground, more often than not it did. AND not because lack fo training, BUT because of the many factors you've mentioned.

ALSO i'd just like to agree with comments about the early UFC fights. I think people over estimate MAT situations and safe training simulation compared to Real Life encounters and the change in attitudes, fear, intent etc.

A lot of peopel forget their trianing when it comes to a RL situation compared to a mat. It is a lot harder to stay relaxed and use your well honed techniques when you realise your facing a 120kg rugby player who wants to take your head off and use it for a rugby ball.

well backed up comments. thanks for the post

Last edited by nikau : 04-23-2007 at 07:29 PM. Reason: wrong order for paragraphs
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Old 04-26-2007, 05:55 PM   #28
Peter Ralls
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Kit

Very good post and article. I have been in law enforcement for twenty four years, and my experience leads me to the same conclusions as you. I think one of the things that has been touched on this thread is that no matter what kind of martial arts you train in, the emotional impact of a violent confrontation is so strong, the person who has been in violent confrontations before and is psychologically used to violent confrontations, has a huge advantage over persons that have not had that experience. Though we know in law enforcement that the closer your training replicates a real life situation, the more likely you are to succeed, none the less, I know of no way to actually replicate the actual impact of a real life violent confrontation in any kind of safe training environment. But given that, in order to best prepare oneself for a violent confrontation, it's necessary to make training as realistic as possible, and that includes some kind of training for both attacker and defender on the ground, and attacker standing and defender on the ground. Kit, I want to thank you in particular for the article, which I made a bunch of copies of to give to my fellow DT instructors.

Peter Ralls
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Old 04-27-2007, 02:21 AM   #29
KIT
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Thanks Peter, I appreciate that coming from someone of your experience.

The FBI's new study on Violent Encounters has some very interesting information related to those criminal types who are what they term "street combat veterans," and the advantage they have over officers and citizens with less experience or no experience with the psychological impact of serious violent encounters.
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Old 04-27-2007, 09:07 AM   #30
Budd
 
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Kit, is there a link available to that study or does it need to be acquired via hardcopy? (or was it mentioned already and I just missed it)

Thanks!
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Old 04-27-2007, 11:28 AM   #31
MM
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Kit, is there a link available to that study or does it need to be acquired via hardcopy? (or was it mentioned already and I just missed it)

Thanks!
Hi Budd,

From the FBI:

Violent Encounters: Felonious Assaults on America's Law Enforcement Officers is available from the UCR Program Office, FBI Complex, 1000 Custer Hollow Road, Clarksburg, WV 26306-0150 or by calling 888-827-6427. Readers who wish to discuss the topic of officer safety but do not want to request copies of Violent Encounters should contact Mr. Charles E. Miller III, head of the Officer Safety Research and Training Program, at 304-625-2939.

Funny, because I'm right around the corner from this FBI complex.

However, I did find an online downloadable version at this site:

http://www.calgunlaws.com/article-480.html

Hope that helps,
Mark
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Old 04-27-2007, 12:06 PM   #32
Budd
 
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Thanks, Mark, much appreciated!
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Old 04-27-2007, 03:32 PM   #33
KIT
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Thanks, Mark, much appreciated!
BTW, lst I heard it is available to the general public. You can order their previous studies on LEOs feloniously slain via CD with the same phone call.

These cases are LE specific, but it takes little imagination to extract what is useful for non-LEOs. The "bad guys" in police encounters and criminal assaults are after all the same people.

Something that should also be cause for pause, and something I have long discussed on forums, is how a handgun, even .45, is a far cry from a "fight stopper" in many instances.
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Old 04-28-2007, 11:05 PM   #34
Franco
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Something that should also be cause for pause, and something I have long discussed on forums, is how a handgun, even .45, is a far cry from a "fight stopper" in many instances.
Kit:

Could you elaborate a bit on that?
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Old 04-28-2007, 11:39 PM   #35
Michael Varin
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

There are numerous instances where people get shot multiple times, even in the face, and are not incapacitated. Bullets, especially from handguns, aren't magic rays of death. Even if someone is mortally wounded, they can still be dangerous. Having said that, it's still better to have a gun than not. And even more reason to learn to use it well.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 04-29-2007, 05:21 AM   #36
Edward
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Quote:
Tim Mailloux wrote: View Post
Several years ago while at an aikido seminar I witnessed 2 younger (mid to late 30's) and very talanted / high ranking aikido teachers (one a 4th dan, the other a 5th dan)get into a fight during the seminar while training with one another. Aparently the two had a lot of "history" and hated one another.

Things got really ugly and puches started flying. Really sloppy wild punches I might add. They were both swinging for the fences. A few seconds latter they were both on the ground doing what looked like really bad ground and pound MMA until they were pulled apart. Not at any point did either one of these guys do or even attempt anything that vaugly resembled aikido.... and the fight also ended up on the ground.

Just though I would share
Somehow I am not surprised to read this. It's only natural. Aikido techniques are most effective when applied on an enraged opponent, at least in theory. Now if both opponents are enraged and want to hurt eachother, they couldn't possibly do any aikido, no matter the rank.

Also I remember from my Judo competition years that no matter how nice the techniques looked like during training, when doing randori or competition, it's a completely different story. 2 opponents doing the same art, who have been taught similar skills, who know eachother's weaknesses. This can only result in, well, a Judo match. 2 guys pushing and pulling and grappling, but rarely achieving any clean and decisive, esthetically appealing techniques.
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Old 04-29-2007, 02:55 PM   #37
pugtm
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

that article applied to police fights in which the basic premise is different and also the goal. with police, they need to restrain the person and arrest him so of course the floor is utilized. In a normal fight however you are trying to hurt your opponent or knock him out, if that is the case a whole new set of premises come about in which judo, jujutsu and aikido may not be as effective as say karate or kempo or some other martial arts that has nothing to do with grappling or throws.
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Old 05-01-2007, 12:15 PM   #38
garry cantrell
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

I'm not a Tomiki practitioner but I did visit Sensei Geis' Dojo in Houston a couple of times in 1980 or so. He didn't cite a statistic but said something along the same lines about most fights ending up on the ground. I got the feeling that there may have been some personal experience involved, but didn't ask. During the same discussion someone (don't remember who) noted that, often, whoever was on the losing end of a punching contest would get tired of being punched and take it to the ground. I don't know if that was from personal experience or statistical evidence, or just conjecture, but it seemed to make sense.
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Old 05-02-2007, 09:57 PM   #39
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Quote:
Tim Mailloux wrote: View Post
Things got really ugly and puches started flying. Really sloppy wild punches I might add. They were both swinging for the fences. A few seconds latter they were both on the ground doing what looked like really bad ground and pound MMA until they were pulled apart. Not at any point did either one of these guys do or even attempt anything that vaugly resembled aikido.... and the fight also ended up on the ground.

Just though I would share
They threw aikido out the window the moment they got angry with each other. Their balance was gone the moment they became consumed by their hatred. If one had the maturity to have a single reflective moment I doubt it would have ended on the ground or been such a sorry spectacle.

If both had reflective moments and regained their one point you would have never known an incident occurred. As usual the exception stands out. Rank doesn't equate directly to maturity in any martial art.

Aikido is not about training two people to go toe to toe in a grudge match so the result is not surprising.

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Old 05-02-2007, 10:14 PM   #40
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

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Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
The fact that being on the ground is so much more dangerous than remaining standing in a real fight should go without saying. But its all the more reason that anyone truly serious about self defense should dedicate a significant portion of their training time to ground strategies, if mainly extricating oneself from bad spots and getting up. That means against skilled opponents - wrestlers, BJJ guys, Judoka - NOT some friends in the dojo who "roll around" every Saturday at open mat and think they understand groundwork.
I find it interesting that wrestlers, BJJ, Judoka are such a bad crowd as a group that one can expect to find them in high proportion in street fights.

I wonder in ten years on the beat how many trained wrestlers, BJJ, Judoka drunk, drugged out, in domestic violence, or up to just no good in gangs on the street ?

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Old 05-03-2007, 08:20 AM   #41
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

I'm not sure what Craig's point is here (the sentences are a bit garbled to my mind, sorry), but it should be self-evident that going to the ground with the best guys is good for training. It puts one in a different class compared to the guys one is going to face, at least. Of course, it does not prepare one for weapons and the usual dirty things people do in fights (i.e., so-called "unfair advantage"), but a solid basis is far better than assorted tricks -- after all, unless one plans to actually be a gangster, one is not generally going to have such weapons on one's person (on the other hand, if one lives in an area frequented by such people, it would be foolhardy to *not* carry something to even the odds weapon-wise, given that one is going to be disadvantageously attacked if at all).
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Old 05-03-2007, 08:41 AM   #42
ChrisMoses
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
I find it interesting that wrestlers, BJJ, Judoka are such a bad crowd as a group that one can expect to find them in high proportion in street fights.

I wonder in ten years on the beat how many trained wrestlers, BJJ, Judoka drunk, drugged out, in domestic violence, or up to just no good in gangs on the street ?
Was this an attempt at humor? What Kit was getting at is that you will only develop the kinds of skills that will work on the ground with people who are good on the ground. So if you want your martial arts to prepare you for many of the self defense situations that you are likely to face should it come to that, being at least comfortable with some newaza would go a long way towards becoming a well rounded martial artist. At least, that's how I take his comments, he's free to correct me if I'm missing something. I am terrible on the ground, I get tired extremely fast, I miss openings all the time and I never get my chokes in deep enough. But I've gotten a little better, and I can use my legs/feet a little better than a couple years ago. That said, when I play with my old aikido buddies, if I take them to the ground they are so disoriented that they have nothing for me. You don't do groundwork because you expect to be attacked by a ground fighter. You do it (at least if your intent is practical) because you want a HUGE advantage over whoever happens to fall down with you.

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Old 05-03-2007, 10:44 AM   #43
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Not joking, though it may not be PC for this thread.

I have played with some judoka, done some ground bjj, did some wrestling in school, dabbled in Systema. I have my doubts that it prepares you for an actual self-defense situation any more than rolling around with some buddies in the dojo. One-on-one newaza is fine practice, but I am skeptical of the 90% hype. It smells of marketing more than research.

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Old 05-03-2007, 11:34 AM   #44
DonMagee
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
Not joking, though it may not be PC for this thread.

I have played with some judoka, done some ground bjj, did some wrestling in school, dabbled in Systema. I have my doubts that it prepares you for an actual self-defense situation any more than rolling around with some buddies in the dojo. One-on-one newaza is fine practice, but I am skeptical of the 90% hype. It smells of marketing more than research.
Seems obvious to me, you need to train with skilled people to develop skills. I'd submit that based on your logic, there is no need to train martial arts, all you need is a buddy and you can just fight. Seriously though, training with unskilled people is going to develop your skills the slowest. Train with highly skilled people and your skills are going to develop quickly. If I want to be good at striking, I don't ask my judo instructor, I find a boxer, MT, etc guy to teach me how to strike. If I want to be good at throws I don't ask a cheerleader, I find a judoka or wrestler. If I want to control someone as quickly as possible on the ground so I can stand up safely and escape, I'll ask a wrestler, judoka, bjjer. Why? Because that is what they train to do. They know all the tricks your buddys won't know because they have done nothing but this for years.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-03-2007, 11:43 AM   #45
Ron Tisdale
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

ah, can *I* have the cheerleader then???

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Old 05-03-2007, 11:55 AM   #46
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

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ah, can *I* have the cheerleader then???

B,
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Save the cheerleader, save the world! Go Hiro!

Sorry I just had to add the Hero reference.
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Old 05-03-2007, 01:04 PM   #47
Budd
 
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Why, are you on the list?

*it's a compulsion, what can I say*

I train ninjutsu with people in my backyard using Pilates balls, I should be all set, right?
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Old 05-03-2007, 02:49 PM   #48
KIT
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
Not joking, though it may not be PC for this thread.

I have played with some judoka, done some ground bjj, did some wrestling in school, dabbled in Systema. I have my doubts that it prepares you for an actual self-defense situation any more than rolling around with some buddies in the dojo. One-on-one newaza is fine practice, but I am skeptical of the 90% hype. It smells of marketing more than research.
Did you actually read the article?? On this and another board it was posted at I am getting the distinct impression that people are simply commenting on the statement, not having read the article, or skimmed it a few paragraphs and assumed they "got it."

Chris nicely recapped the rather obvious point I was making regarding training.
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Old 05-03-2007, 02:51 PM   #49
KIT
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Seems obvious to me, you need to train with skilled people to develop skills. I'd submit that based on your logic, there is no need to train martial arts, all you need is a buddy and you can just fight. Seriously though, training with unskilled people is going to develop your skills the slowest. Train with highly skilled people and your skills are going to develop quickly. If I want to be good at striking, I don't ask my judo instructor, I find a boxer, MT, etc guy to teach me how to strike. If I want to be good at throws I don't ask a cheerleader, I find a judoka or wrestler. If I want to control someone as quickly as possible on the ground so I can stand up safely and escape, I'll ask a wrestler, judoka, bjjer. Why? Because that is what they train to do. They know all the tricks your buddys won't know because they have done nothing but this for years.
I dunno what yer talking about - my buddies and I get together all the time and practice wrist locks, tossing each other around on the mat. Its the same thing as doing aikido!!!!
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Old 05-03-2007, 06:21 PM   #50
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Re: 90% of all fights go to the ground..

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Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
I dunno what yer talking about - my buddies and I get together all the time and practice wrist locks, tossing each other around on the mat. Its the same thing as doing aikido!!!!
I'm calling my aikido instructor tomarrow and telling him I'm never coming back. I'll learn all I need about aikido from fighting with my cats.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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