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Old 05-02-2007, 10:51 AM   #26
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Quite agree. It also shouldn't be bolstered by unsubstantiated, overly romanticized, myth. Taken way out of context as well...

Best,
Ron
Those who think that "loyalty" in Feudal Japan is exemplified by the 47 Ronin should read up on the Battle of Sekigahara. Nasty reality check.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:19 AM   #27
Ron Tisdale
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Quote:
Cito Maramba wrote: View Post
Those who think that "loyalty" in Feudal Japan is exemplified by the 47 Ronin should read up on the Battle of Sekigahara. Nasty reality check.
Darn straight...always serves as a good reminder. Not to mention that people like Oda were quite...vicious.

Best,
Ron (hope I've got the right battle...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:48 AM   #28
Dennis Hooker
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

One of my sandans fell in love with the way Endo Shihan teaches and has taken a path in that direction. When they had a seminar with one of Endo's top students and their dojo was not big enough they used the Shindai Dojo. I really don't see a problem here. Heck if all my students would find someone else I could go fishing!

Dennis

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Old 05-02-2007, 11:54 AM   #29
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Quote:
Mike Logan wrote: View Post
I would suggest re-reading posts# 5,6,15,16

While the internet looks like a really big place, in some situations it isn't. Publicly insinuating upon the quality of someone's loyalty to another, or to a group as a whole, is rash at best.

Learn from the example of James Smith

michael.
Who is James Smith, please?
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Old 05-02-2007, 12:19 PM   #30
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Darn straight...always serves as a good reminder. Not to mention that people like Oda were quite...vicious.

Best,
Ron (hope I've got the right battle...)
Good example, but wrong battle, I'm afraid... Oda Nobunaga was quite vicious and tactically skilled... His troops slaughtered the Takeda forces at Nagashino with excellent use of muskets... his skill as a tactician didn't save him from betrayed and murdered by his supposedly LOYAL retainer, Akechi Mutsuhide...
At Sekigahara, Tokugawa Ieyasu's forces won when the army of the Kobayakawa Clan betrayed the Toyotomi forces led by Mitsunari Ishida... this victory paved the way for the establishment of the 260+ year Tokugawa Shogunate...
Here endeth the history lesson

Cheers,

Cito

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Old 05-02-2007, 12:38 PM   #31
Ron Tisdale
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

And a good lesson it was!

Thanks,
And Best,
Ron

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Old 05-02-2007, 01:51 PM   #32
Bronson
 
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Ok, so my grasp of Japanese feudal history isn't nearly as impressive as Cito's but I seem to remember reading that this whole samurai-loyal-to-only-one-lord thing is a part of that "overly romanticized, myth" that Ron was talking about.

I really can't remember where I read it, but it was the idea that if the Lord couldn't pay the samurai's stipend, or if another lord was offering a bigger stipend or better chances at advancement that samurai would often switch allegiances. Not so different from any of us in the current work-force.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-02-2007, 02:09 PM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Who is James Smith, please?
Cough...if you are really interested, look here...

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/search...earchid=275837

If you don't look, you won't miss much.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-02-2007, 03:13 PM   #34
crbateman
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
If you don't look, you won't miss much.

Actually, if you don't look, you won't miss anything...
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Old 05-02-2007, 08:10 PM   #35
Chris Li
 
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
I will make this my last post on this subject, because we all seem to have a very different view on this subject, and for the most part i am greatly out numbered, which is a shame because i dont see how you can truly train in an art and not try to adhere to all that it should encompass, i geuss we should all take our GI's off, not train in suwari waza, and no more bowing, hell why even call your intructor Sensei, just call him teacher or by his name, lets take out all of the tradition about the training in AIKIDO, maybe i am wrong about this, or maybe i am the only one on here that is correct, that is subject to debate, which has already happened, and i do apprciate the banter, as this is what i asked for, Thanks all
How loyal was Morihei Ueshiba to Sokaku Takeda?

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-03-2007, 12:31 AM   #36
Christopher Gee
 
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

I think its interesting this concept of loyalty to ones teacher. I have recently left a teacher that I great admire based on the fact that I no longer want what I once did.

Does this make me a bad person....? Probably. However, rather than back biting and causing problems, I think that it is best to go and search for what you really want. There is no point being with a teacher that you dont agree with, it will only lead to resentment and this will show in your practice.

You cannot stay where you are unhappy and it is as simple as that.

Regards,
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Old 05-03-2007, 12:32 AM   #37
Christopher Gee
 
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

ps, seems this James chap has been erased from time itself!!
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Old 05-03-2007, 08:30 AM   #38
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
How loyal was Morihei Ueshiba to Sokaku Takeda?

Best,

Chris
This is a pretty good example of what we are talking about, actually. O-Sensei clearly felt the need to go in his own direction and did so. But from all accounts of the deshi, he always referred to Takeda respectfully and whenever Takeda visited, O-Sensei treated him as his teacher and acted accordingly. The virtual disowning of Takeda and Daito Ryu was done buy the Aikikai under Kisshomaru, Osawa, and company (at least as I understand it).

Also, in terms of loyalty going both ways, as Chuck Clark Sensei pointed out, Takeda did some questionable things such as walking in and hi-jacking the Asahi Newspaper training program.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 05-03-2007, 09:22 AM   #39
Ron Tisdale
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

All good examples of how complicated relationships are, and why "loyalty" is often in the eyes of the beholder. And perhaps why these questions should be left to the people most closely involved.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-03-2007, 09:54 AM   #40
Chris Li
 
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
This is a pretty good example of what we are talking about, actually. O-Sensei clearly felt the need to go in his own direction and did so. But from all accounts of the deshi, he always referred to Takeda respectfully and whenever Takeda visited, O-Sensei treated him as his teacher and acted accordingly. The virtual disowning of Takeda and Daito Ryu was done buy the Aikikai under Kisshomaru, Osawa, and company (at least as I understand it).

Also, in terms of loyalty going both ways, as Chuck Clark Sensei pointed out, Takeda did some questionable things such as walking in and hi-jacking the Asahi Newspaper training program.
It does appear as if Ueshiba was always respectful in face to face meetings. That Takeda hi-jacked the Asahi News dojo is both a symptom of the problems between them and an interesting example of how Japanese deal with difficult problems, IMO.

In any case, my point was that even in "traditional" Japan, it was common for people to go off and open dojo on their own, change teachers, etc.. If it is good for "traditional" Japanese, then arguing against it on the basis of a tradition of loyalty in budo seems, to me, to make no sense.

As for disowning, I'm not sure how far that really goes. If you look back at Kisshomaru's books published in Japanese, even those quite far back, Takeda was always prominently mentioned in the history sections.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-03-2007, 10:28 AM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Quote:
...Takeda was always prominently mentioned in the history sections.
Yes, mentioned, but in what way? I can't read Japanese, so I can't say myself. I do know that many of the books available in English seem to portray Takeda negatively even when he is prominent.

Is it the same or different in Kisshomaru's books?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-03-2007, 10:34 AM   #42
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
All good examples of how complicated relationships are, and why "loyalty" is often in the eyes of the beholder. And perhaps why these questions should be left to the people most closely involved.

Best,
Ron
My teacher helped me in this dept. "loyalty to the Art above all."
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Old 05-03-2007, 11:37 AM   #43
Ron Tisdale
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Exactly...and if your teacher's impression of the art and your own impression of the art should develop in different ways, it would be perfectly reasonable, under those circumstances, to look for a teacher whose vision is more closely aligned with your own.

A wise caveat would be that no one's vision will be exactly the same as your own (if you are at all developed as an individual human being), and simply blowing around from teacher to teacher is not likely to be productive, either.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-03-2007, 12:17 PM   #44
Christopher Gee
 
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Same as the story of Tesshu.... I believe? Didnt he leave his sensei also?

I agree with Ron, concrete your core principles, develop them, train hard and love the art. There is nothing more exciting than getting to know new people through Aikido and visiting the old ones, especially after they have seen how you have changed and improved.

Regards,
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Old 05-03-2007, 12:22 PM   #45
Chris Li
 
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Yes, mentioned, but in what way? I can't read Japanese, so I can't say myself. I do know that many of the books available in English seem to portray Takeda negatively even when he is prominent.

Is it the same or different in Kisshomaru's books?

Best,
Ron
I don't think that I ever saw Kisshomaru himself say anything negative, but some of the pre-war students who met Takeda had negative stories to tell - even Tokimune admitted the truth of some of them.

OTOH, the reason why Sagawa decided not to take up Morihei's invitation to teach at Aikikai hombu was that he (Morihei, not Kisshomaru) had made some negative comments about Takeda in an interview. Anyway, sniping at other martial artists is sort of a popular past-time in Japan, in all arts, and from all sides.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-03-2007, 12:27 PM   #46
Ron Tisdale
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Thanks for the reply! Most interesting situations...

B,
R

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Old 05-03-2007, 01:14 PM   #47
aikishrine
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Apparently i am wrong, though i dont in any way think so.
Maybe that is the hopeless romantic in me, i guess i just wish that this was the way things were. thanks all
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Old 05-03-2007, 02:32 PM   #48
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

I don't see how wishing others to conform to your wishes is romantic or a virtue. Dictators prize loyalty highly. You might even argue that they prize it as the highest virtue.

It's fine to feel loyalty but honesty is a virtue also.

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Old 05-03-2007, 02:42 PM   #49
Ron Tisdale
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Brian, if I had a nickle for everytime I was wrong (or someone else thought so) I'd be a wealthy man. Don't sweat it...just being open to the possibility gives us more options in life.

Best always,
Ron

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Old 05-03-2007, 04:15 PM   #50
heathererandolph
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue

Brian:

I can sort of understand your thinking, anything that happens within a dojo that challenges the value you put on it can be disturbing. When a student becomes a fixture in the dojo and then has to leave for some reason, things change, but then when a new student walks in the door things change again. It's all part of the growth process. Students at different levels tend to see things differently, and everyone sees the dojo from their own perspective. I suggest you try to recognize this as a potentially negative but yet potentially positive change in the dojo. Personally, I try to stay out of dojo politics, or not have them! I think you've accepted that this change threatens you. The next step is to realize the value of conflict in our art. I don't know what level you are at within the dojo, but every child has a time when they idolize their parents, then later start to see them as so boringly human!
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