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Old 04-29-2007, 08:01 AM   #26
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Alec Corper,

My dojo adheres more to the Yoseikan school of thought, although we are not officially register with there organization. We use some Judo and Jujitsu techniques in our workout, but the bases is Aikdio, what ever that means. Aikido means different things, to a lot of different people. So the point of trying to convince someone like myself and others about the traditionalist mindset is waste of time. We're pretty open minded and I'm glad our sensi is like this. It's great to see fellow Aikidoist explore other avenues for self defense. Perhaps some other blog where others think as you do will suit your fancy.

I knew sooner or later we would have some opposition to realistic fighting. I think you are probably arguing on the wrong blog for the traditionalist mindset. Sooner or later the natural progression of the martial arts will overcome those who want to live in the ancient Japanese times. The world will pass you by why you live in the rim of cultural, spiritual fantasy. A person will wake up some 50 years from now and see the world practicing martial arts that have evolved while long hair hippies practice there spiritual Aikido in some remote forest, intellectualizing there egos. For those Aikiodist who want to learn self defense, we will continue our quest for martial effectiveness. Let's leave those who prefer the open minded approach to there own development.
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Old 04-29-2007, 09:09 AM   #27
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Thank you Salim for your comments, we agree on one thing, aikido means different things to different people. I do hope , however, that you are not confusing me with someone else. After 30 years of martial arts, I don't have enough hair to be a long hair hippy, and I'm sure that some of the soldiers, police officers and bouncers I have worked with over the years would appreciate what you call "realistic fighting",
Ron Tisdale recently said to someone who got a touch fed up with juvenile responses, "If you cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen", and I guess I've reached the point of thinking that if there's no cooking going on he is probably right, so I will leave all you tough guys to it and retire to my "cultural, spiritual fantasy".
;-)

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 04-29-2007, 09:16 AM   #28
Bob King
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Thanks to all of you for your very insightful and honest responses, particularly from senseis Ledyard and Camejo! Being Tomiki/Shodokan stylists we were attempting keeping to the graduated approach. But it obviously fell apart a lot faster than I would have hoped for! It's quite different doing taisabaki against a gloved hand than a foam tanto thrust in a basically straight line. I agree with all that that our taisabaki sucked royally, both Jeff and I made frequent mistakes: turning our back, moving to the inside without controlling the back hand, being much too defensive and ending up on our heels and off balance, and definitely not owning the mat, not "attacking the attack" as Sensei Merritt Stevens used to admonish us to do and Ledyard so effectively pointed out. Keeping hands up at all times is also an excellent suggestion, thanks Don. I did try as much as possible to keep my techniques to Aikido only but instinct takes over and Judo type techniques snuck in, that discipline is hard to maintain once you tie up. We were keeping our attacks slower, simpler and mellower as we are still in the experimental stage and both still need to go to work the next day to pay the bills! For which reasons we will also probably continue to wear heavier gloves to ensure safety and keep the blood and broken bones to a minimum but having the defender wear MMA gloves to counterattack with atemi is another great suggestion. Headgear would also be boone to training and would allow for greater commitment to the attack. As to traditional versus non-traditional training, I think both methods are valid and necessary and have their place (I enjoy both for different reasons) but that is probably a discussion for another forum thread. Thanks again for all your input, I'm sure Jeff and I will be trying to implement the suggestions and put up more video for critique. As an aside, Camejo sensei, will you be attending the International Sport Aikido Festival in Ohio in August of this year? I will be and would enjoy meeting you in person. Keep the suggestions and criticism coming in, this has been a great and very enlightening discussion!
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Old 04-29-2007, 09:37 AM   #29
Amir Krause
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

While I find the exercise to seem like fun, and one which could be used as a good training experience, I do not think this is true for you yet. Neither person in the video demonstrated anything resembling Aikido. We practice against boxing attacks frequently (more often of the Karate style, but the difference is minimal), including evasion\movement "half-Randori" with Uke only doing Tai-Sabaki, though we do not normally use boxing gloves.

I have often seen the way you both moved among beginners, they forget all the Tai-Sabaki they have learnt in Aikido. The good news is you are past the first phase - most beginners stick in place and use their hands to deflect the attacks, you started moving. The bad news is your movements are full of basic mistakes. I do not know if it is your lack of experience - 1 year practice is a short time, or lack of experienced teacher to show you the way (you are experimenting, a teacher would have shown you the way).

I will give you two free advices:
1. SLOWER , keep the spirit, but at 10% speed so you will have the time to process the movement and decide on your route in time, the way you moved is typical for people who are late and feel they must get away. However, changing the speed must be done equally at both ends - not only by the attacker, and if an attack enters even though you could have outrun it, who cares.

2. Move TOWARDS the attack, not from him. Your purpose should be to hug your attacker before he is ready to give a second strike (if you can get to him before then, while the punch is being thrown, it is much better). You should move towards him, not from him. We often use the image of "sliding doors" to describe this concept. Note, this is a lower level physical explanation of the Aiki spirit Ledyard Sensei wrote about -- Irimi should be performed even earlier, responding to the intent to punch, but doing that to anyone is extremely difficult, and if he has some experience -- even more so (I know how often I fail).

Amir
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Old 04-29-2007, 12:11 PM   #30
mwible
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

i spar regularly with my taekwondo buddies (in taekwondo) and i can get a lock on them every now and then, i dont try to much since im supposed to be doing TKD, but id think they have about the spead of a boxer. so i can still see it as being entirely possible to get a lock on a boxer.
-morgan
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Old 04-29-2007, 12:45 PM   #31
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Finally the Aikikai World is waking up to the truth of practical application. I bet the Yoseikan guys catch a lot heat from the traditionalist Aikikai. Keep up the development of practical application of Aikido against real attacks. There are some many things in Akikai that even though they are fun, are really impractical for self defense. This is just great. Please continue the development, this is a tremendous boost to look at reality for the Aikido World.
I find very interesting that some folks assume this is something new. All the video did was show some dudes running around off balance backpedeling avoiding punches and somehow that is "reality" ???

I guess you you want to tire out your uke by forcing him to run around a ring it's ok.

"Reality" based Randori would have the boxer box and the Aikidoka execute techniques like Atemi and Irimi with perhaps a foot sweep or two to assist the nice boxer with his balance.

Of course I am assuming one wants to learn Aikido.

William Hazen
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Old 04-29-2007, 12:47 PM   #32
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
While I find the exercise to seem like fun, and one which could be used as a good training experience, I do not think this is true for you yet. Neither person in the video demonstrated anything resembling Aikido. We practice against boxing attacks frequently (more often of the Karate style, but the difference is minimal), including evasion\movement "half-Randori" with Uke only doing Tai-Sabaki, though we do not normally use boxing gloves.

I have often seen the way you both moved among beginners, they forget all the Tai-Sabaki they have learnt in Aikido. The good news is you are past the first phase - most beginners stick in place and use their hands to deflect the attacks, you started moving. The bad news is your movements are full of basic mistakes. I do not know if it is your lack of experience - 1 year practice is a short time, or lack of experienced teacher to show you the way (you are experimenting, a teacher would have shown you the way).

I will give you two free advices:
1. SLOWER , keep the spirit, but at 10% speed so you will have the time to process the movement and decide on your route in time, the way you moved is typical for people who are late and feel they must get away. However, changing the speed must be done equally at both ends - not only by the attacker, and if an attack enters even though you could have outrun it, who cares.

2. Move TOWARDS the attack, not from him. Your purpose should be to hug your attacker before he is ready to give a second strike (if you can get to him before then, while the punch is being thrown, it is much better). You should move towards him, not from him. We often use the image of "sliding doors" to describe this concept. Note, this is a lower level physical explanation of the Aiki spirit Ledyard Sensei wrote about -- Irimi should be performed even earlier, responding to the intent to punch, but doing that to anyone is extremely difficult, and if he has some experience -- even more so (I know how often I fail).

Amir
THIS is more like it... AND will lead you to the place you want to go...

William Hazen
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Old 04-29-2007, 01:56 PM   #33
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

William Hazen,

I was referring more to the concept of reality self defense more than the video itself. There are some who don't like the idea and discourage the principle altogether. They want Aikido to be philosophical to amuse there egos. We need more reality training at full speed with people who know how to really attach, not staged attacks.
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Old 04-29-2007, 01:58 PM   #34
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

forget the video......let's train for real self defense
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Old 04-29-2007, 02:06 PM   #35
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Hi Robert,

Kudos for the type of training you are doing up in Mansfield. It's good to get out of the box and see what the training method is capable of imho.
Quote:
Robert King wrote: View Post
it obviously fell apart a lot faster than I would have hoped for! It's quite different doing taisabaki against a gloved hand than a foam tanto thrust in a basically straight line. I agree with all that that our taisabaki sucked royally, both Jeff and I made frequent mistakes: turning our back, moving to the inside without controlling the back hand, being much too defensive and ending up on our heels and off balance, and definitely not owning the mat, not "attacking the attack" as Sensei Merritt Stevens used to admonish us to do and Ledyard so effectively pointed out.
Having tried this sort of thing myself I know it is quite difficult, especially if it is something that you are just embarking upon. It takes some time to allow the skillset from one type of training (e.g. tanto randori) to express itself in this format which is much more variable. I agree totally that dealing with gloved hands is quite different than what we typically do against straight tanto strikes for our tanto randori. This is why I think toshu randori may be a bit more applicable to the "clinch" aspects of the boxing style attacks, whereas the reaction and metsuke aspects of tanto randori may help with jabs and other quick strikes. Regardless of the base format one uses however, it will be difficult at first.

Use of tegatana (using tai sabaki while placing tegatana on the striking hand to parry and track the arm) helps a lot since it gives us a way of knowing where the attacker's arm and body is without needing to see anything. This minimizes reaction and entry time from my experience and helps with kuzushi since we are able to track the attacker's position through touch, allowing us to get in place for technique much sooner and adapt much quicker to any changes or reactive movements the attacker might make.

Quote:
Robert King wrote: View Post
Keeping hands up at all times is also an excellent suggestion, thanks Don.
Interestingly enough I've found that the "hands up" approach works well when I am dealing with boxing or kick and punch attacks in Jujutsu training. The reason for this is because I am at a ma ai that is a good bit closer than what I use for Aikido. At that close distance I don't hjave the time to raise my hands up. However, if I can maintain Aikido distance e.g. as we use in tanto randori (which I've found to be critical when engaging a boxer using Aikido since it forces him to come at me) my "hands down" approach keeps him guessing right up until I make contact on his jaw with shomen ate or aigamae ate, since it comes up right along his body in the blind spot on his centreline. If my hands are up he will always see my atemi waza on approach. So it depends on the ma ai you want to work with imho, everything is determined by your tactical approach. When executing Aiki waza I try to cut down in one stroke using Sen timing wherever possible (usually using atemi waza), hence I try not to give anything away.
Quote:
Robert King wrote: View Post
I did try as much as possible to keep my techniques to Aikido only but instinct takes over and Judo type techniques snuck in, that discipline is hard to maintain once you tie up.
This is difficult and requires a lot of mental compartmentalization imho. This gets worse the more structured training you have in other methods outside of Aikido. The only way to combat it is to keep the waza within the Aikido repertoire by stopping or not rewarding any waza that are not within the Aikido set. To me this is important since we will always tend to do what is easiest and natural in a given situation. The only way to cultivate a particular skillset is to reduce the "noise" from other things as much as possible. This type of training is to better ones Aikido in particular, when I teach pure self defence then instinctive waza is your friend as long as it works.

Quote:
Robert King wrote: View Post
As an aside, Camejo sensei, will you be attending the International Sport Aikido Festival in Ohio in August of this year? I will be and would enjoy meeting you in person. Keep the suggestions and criticism coming in, this has been a great and very enlightening discussion!
I am hoping to attend with the first ever contingent from this country. This depends a lot on sponsorship which seems to be iffy at the moment. However if we are successful in getting there I will definitely let you know.

Happy training.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 04-29-2007, 02:33 PM   #36
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
The only way to cultivate a particular skillset is to reduce the "noise" from other things as much as possible. This type of training is to better ones Aikido in particular, when I teach pure self defence then instinctive waza is your friend as long as it works.
This is a very cogent comment...

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 04-29-2007, 02:52 PM   #37
Bob King
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Larry,

I do hope you get to come to Ohio so we can meet in person. Thanks for your comments and observations. Though I've had lots of experience doing tanto randori (not that I'm good, just lots of experience), this was a first doing striking randori and keeping it just to Tomiki techniques. Your comment "The only way to combat it is to keep the waza within the Aikido repertoire by stopping or not rewarding any waza that are not within the Aikido set." is very pertinent to a side goal (long term) of developing a randori shiai system that based on striking, as an alternative to tanto/toshu and more appealing to the general public. Everyone loves to see someone get tagged!

Thanks again and I hope to se you and your contingent in August!!!
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Old 04-29-2007, 03:03 PM   #38
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

http://video.google.com/url?docid=62...R_06kNACGYq-bg

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 04-29-2007, 03:28 PM   #39
mwible
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

that was a great little video there, never thought about some of that stuff

-morgan
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Old 04-29-2007, 05:45 PM   #40
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

You can find out more about Kuroiwa Sensei in this blog entry by Ellis Amdur

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 04-29-2007, 06:02 PM   #41
Michael Douglas
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
A partner wearing gloves is usually a bit more willing to commit to an attack than one who isn't... Makes the practice better. It's the same reason I like doing tachi dori against someone with a shinai rather than a bokken. It's not for my safety, it's because I get a better attack..
Yes I think this is a great point,
hadn't really considered it before.
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Old 04-29-2007, 10:13 PM   #42
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Kuroiwa, has GREAT form. Some of his ideas I don't really agree with though.

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Old 04-29-2007, 11:55 PM   #43
xuzen
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Hey Jeff,

I recommend checking out Yoseikan Budo. You may be able to pick up some good techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z7N5Nt9-Q8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36igXLTOYV0

Darin
Yes yes yes...Love em' love em all....

One question though... how come we don't see this people in the UFC, Pride and MMA events? And aren't what they do called Mix Martial Art anyway?

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 04-30-2007, 02:55 AM   #44
darin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Yes yes yes...Love em' love em all....

One question though... how come we don't see this people in the UFC, Pride and MMA events? And aren't what they do called Mix Martial Art anyway?

Boon.
As far as I know Yoseikan Budo has its own MMA tournaments. I don't know if they enter into UFC, Pride or MMA events outside of their organization. Hopefully Phil Farmer can answer your questions if he happens to catch this thread.
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Old 04-30-2007, 07:38 AM   #45
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Yoseikan Aikido is awesome. I wish we had a dojo in our our. I would go there and train in a heart beat. I love it, simply awesome.
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Old 04-30-2007, 08:23 AM   #46
Keith R Lee
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Yes yes yes...Love em' love em all....

One question though... how come we don't see this people in the UFC, Pride and MMA events? And aren't what they do called Mix Martial Art anyway?

Boon.
Because that's a far cry from even amateur MMA competition, let alone the big leagues.

Keith Lee
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Old 04-30-2007, 10:25 PM   #47
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

The makiotoshi at 6:11 is kinda nice. I like it when people make videos like this. It may be sloppy and unaiki, but shows that performing techniques on people who refuse to "blend" is kind of...hard.
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:59 PM   #48
Michael Douglas
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Yeah, the video is entertaining and in great humour even after
he fell flat on his nose he was laughing!

Hurry up with part 2 fellas!
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Old 05-01-2007, 06:02 PM   #49
CNYMike
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
..... They want Aikido to be philosophical .....
News flash: Aikido is the most spiritual/philosphical of the martial arts, going all the way back to O Sensei who saw his martial training as "personal purification." It has nothing to do with how anyone wants it; that's how it is.

Quote:
..... We need more reality training at full speed with people who know how to really attach, not staged attacks.
News update: Every technique ever practiced in any martial arts school anywhere in the world is "staged," because you know who's attcking, you know what the attack is, and you are practicing counters that your partner will probably do to you within a few minute when you're attacking. That's true reagardless of whether it's katate dori -_______________ in Aikido or a focus mit drill in a kickboxing school. If you're sparring, well, you and your sparring partner know the same technques and counters to them and are pobably doing things to limit the risk of injury, such as wearing groin cups, head gear, and other padding, and that's after agreeing on the contact level. Same for grappling; I doubt anyone in any BJJ class anywhere is going to choke someone until their brains die from lack of oxygen. It would be all over the news if that happened! And you might have trouble finding students.

If "traditional" Aikido is "staged," well, it's in good company.

Last edited by CNYMike : 05-01-2007 at 06:04 PM. Reason: Left bracked IN
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Old 05-01-2007, 09:13 PM   #50
DonMagee
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
News flash: Aikido is the most spiritual/philosphical of the martial arts, going all the way back to O Sensei who saw his martial training as "personal purification." It has nothing to do with how anyone wants it; that's how it is.

News update: Every technique ever practiced in any martial arts school anywhere in the world is "staged," because you know who's attcking, you know what the attack is, and you are practicing counters that your partner will probably do to you within a few minute when you're attacking. That's true reagardless of whether it's katate dori -_______________ in Aikido or a focus mit drill in a kickboxing school. If you're sparring, well, you and your sparring partner know the same technques and counters to them and are pobably doing things to limit the risk of injury, such as wearing groin cups, head gear, and other padding, and that's after agreeing on the contact level. Same for grappling; I doubt anyone in any BJJ class anywhere is going to choke someone until their brains die from lack of oxygen. It would be all over the news if that happened! And you might have trouble finding students.

If "traditional" Aikido is "staged," well, it's in good company.
Ahh yes, argue the language and not the spirit of the message. We all know that sparing will not develop any skill kata can't.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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