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Old 04-15-2007, 09:00 AM   #151
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Quote:
Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
Hi Mike,

So by my count you've presumed 3 times that I'm saying "this stuff isn't in Aikido", when I never said it. That's called a strawman. If I believed that, I wouldn't be on Aikido forum having this discussion (about the deepest aspects of the art, in the Non-Aikido forum ). What I said was that the percentage in Aikido is likely tiny as it is in Taiji, particularly with the size of the population and the existence of a large organization like the Aikikai. If I'm not mistaken, Mike's encounter that set him off on the road to seek this stuff out was a particular Aikido instructor from Japan. I don't know why it's necessary to repeat over and over the belief that this stuff is hidden and not many people have it as a result. That's been the position for many many posts not just from me, so I'm not sure where this "it's not in Aikido" stuff is coming from. You may not agree, but I don't think anyone has been unclear.

The simple reason that I am not as optimistic is that I have seen this very argument in various forms many times, with people being sure they do it, or their teacher does it, and nothing that's said or pointed to sounds any different than what they already have. Then when they actually go and visit, it's always "oops - guess not." Not 40% of the time, or 65% of the time, but 100% of the time. So I'm not telling you what you know or performing a cold reading over the net, but my experience says it's likely you aren't on the same page. I might be wrong, but if so you would be the first.

I think it's time to abandon this discussion, and abandon the hope that anyone would want to post deep insights, as I see the maggots crawling toward this thread (not meaning you or anyone else who has been decent, to be clear). At this point I think the discussion will already have resonated with, and piqued the curiosity of, those possessing the qualities that would make anyone want to show them something and help them go further down the path. As the old saying goes, when the student is ready, the master will appear.
Think you may be right there. Let's just assume I'm the first in your experience then Only way to test that is to meet up in person at a seminar sometime. If I ever visit the US for such a purpose y'never know Thanks for the discussion. It's forced me to clear my head of some cobwebs.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 04-15-2007, 10:09 AM   #152
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Quote:
Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
this stuff is hidden and not many people have it as a result.
Is an example of "this hidden stuff", the exercises that Akuzawa is teaching openly (in a non-hidden way)?

What do you mean by hidden? There's some secret training method that the high level taiji and aikido exponents are hiding from 99.9% of their own students?
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Old 04-15-2007, 10:15 AM   #153
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Howard Chan wrote: View Post
Is an example of "this hidden stuff", the exercises that Akuzawa is teaching openly (in a non-hidden way)?

What do you mean by hidden? There's some secret training method that the high level taiji and aikido exponents are hiding from 99.9% of their own students?
FWIW I don't think it's hidden at all Howard, I've seen it quite openly taught on many occasions. So Pete is either talking about something totally different from what I'm talking about (and I don't think he is because as far as I know we're talking about the stuff that Ueshiba and Tohei do and others such as Chen Xiao Wang), or he's putting it on a pedestal a little. I think it mostly just depends on perspective though.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 04-15-2007, 10:16 AM   #154
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Think you may be right there. Let's just assume I'm the first in your experience then Only way to test that is to meet up in person at a seminar sometime. If I ever visit the US for such a purpose y'never know Thanks for the discussion. It's forced me to clear my head of some cobwebs.

Mike
Mike,

Pleasure talking to you, and may your meeting with CXW take you further down the path. As long as you continue to seek, you'll be rewarded. Dan Inosanto was once struggling to learn something or other from some master, stopped, and remarked with a grin, "I love being a student!" All the best,

Pete
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Old 04-15-2007, 10:53 AM   #155
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Howard Chan wrote: View Post
Is an example of "this hidden stuff", the exercises that Akuzawa is teaching openly (in a non-hidden way)?

What do you mean by hidden? There's some secret training method that the high level taiji and aikido exponents are hiding from 99.9% of their own students?
Hi Howard,

I missed seeing this earlier. Dang, I am trying to bow out gracefully here since I simply don't have time to keep up on these things, and keep seeing more questions. If I don't respond in the future, it's because I don't have time, not that it isn't a good question.

Short answer: yes, most definitely. I have heard that Akuzawa's peers are not happy that he is sharing these things openly, which is precisely what I would expect. Bruce Lee was challenged as a result of teaching Westerners, and look what happened when Maeda taught the Gracies - who wants to be beaten with their own techniques? It's an old attitude. In some ways it doesn't make sense in modern times because few people have the time to devote outside of work and family to dedicate themselves to an art, and fighting is illegal anyway. So you have the occasional Akuzawa who doesn't see the point of keeping anything secret (though even he may keep many things in reserve, and likely does until you've proven yourself). But the rule is not to show the "real deal".

Because of the nature of internal movement, it really is "internal" in that you usually can't see what's going on by looking at it. As I said before, I could visually copy Akuzawa's exercises, but without knowing about the contradictory tensions and the details of how to do it right, I would likely do everything wrong. You also have to feel what you are going for. I confess I'm amused that people can watch some video of him and people always see what they want to see. For my part, I can see Rob's head snap back as Akuzawa moves his arms, and having felt some things I have a pretty good idea of what it feels like, it's much more power than you expect and it doesn't feel like normal strength. In any case I can copy funakogi undo and get nothing real too. The amount of things that can be done in the body is remarkable, and unless you are specifically told and corrected on it, it's very unlikely you'll get the benefit. So most people don't see the point, and do it as a warmup or something. And those are the known exercises, there are likely many that are not shown, and those would tend to be the most productive.

I've heard about some pretty unusual things, people who feel like they have saran wrap moving under their skin when you touch them (i.e. extreme levels of special conditioning to unify the body), things that people were shown privately that they won't disclose even on private channels out of respect for their teacher, etc. There are levels and then levels of this stuff, which is why it's amusing to see people talk about it as if it's nothing, or commonly available. But even if I had levels and levels to share (I wish!) I wouldn't do anything detailed in public either. You have to seek it out, and if you're a jerkoff, don't bother.

The normal order of things would be for someone like Akuzawa to show what he can do, you feel how powerful he is, and he just says it's ki and you should just copy him. You end up assuming that if you just do 500,000 repetitions you'll get what he has. Meanwhile his power comes from all these exercises you would never know about, and even if you saw him do them, you would get nothing by visually copying them nor are you likely to understand the point and how they give him the results you want. You'd put it down as generic exercise, and go back to the gym to lift weights hoping to get more power that way, which virtually guarantees you won't get it due to the specificity principle.

It's not just that there are secret trainings per se, but the secrets are a part of every motion. In other words they are also hidden in plain sight, not just hidden.

Skill aside, if you are not doing specific exercises with the intent of achieving a certain conditioning, knowing how to do them in detail with the proper visualizations, and why, and what you are trying to achieve with them, you will never get far.

At this point everything will be repeats. If you're curious, you've been given more than enough information to go seek. There's a lot more out there than you think. Good luck in all your training.
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Old 04-15-2007, 11:07 AM   #156
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Before Pete disappears completely. It is worth adding that I am familiar with the idea that these things have been hidden and that those who openly teach them have sometimes been rebuked, but I find that the notion is a tad romanticised sometimes. Koichi Tohei developed his method of teaching specifically to make these skills easily available to anyone who wished to learn them. In the beginning he even left out aikido waza and set up ki only classes outside of aikikai hombu.

My own teacher has said to me a number of times that when he has been to another dojo that does not teach Tohei style exercises he is often told that what he is doing is 'advanced secret stuff' and 'only the masters do it'. He said that this is the sort of thing he tends to hear at karate dojo and other places, less than at aikido dojo. His usual comment after telling us this is 'if it's advanced stuff and only the masters do it, why did I start learning it from the beginning then? And why do I start teaching it to white belts rather than wait until they are yudansha or higher?'

I suspect Pete may not have much experience with the Ki Society and it's offshoots, that's just a suspicion though I could be wrong.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:15 PM   #157
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Aran Bright wrote: View Post
Hi Pete,
I am always going to keep my mind open and assume that everyone has something to offer as a teacher or otherwise, but 100% of the time, come on, Mike Sigman often sights Tohei and Shioda as having the skills, so there must be some of their students that got it and past it on. Of those there is a likelihood they could be in England (or Australia for that matter) I mean Mike and yourself have got to experience these skills and must be able to do it on some level. Don't you think its more likely that some people have some skill but it just may not be as well developed as it could be?
Personally I'll take Pete's 100%....so far. I think many folks have "some skill." Just as many can discuss "some things" till the cows come home. Saying and doing are 10,000 repititions and years of trial apart.
In fact what these arts have demonstrated CLEARLY to me is that most people didn't get the goods and probably never will. The discussion is beyond single arts or styles.
As for wondering where those who have these skills are and what proportion they may have? If you had these skills-you would stand out like a sore thumb in any Dojo. In direct proportion to the depth of your understanding-you could not exist in a dojo without standing out. If we argue our "group" all knows, then they will stand out.
And what group know it all? There are many expressions in the arts. Variations on a theme.

Quote:
Aran Bright wrote: View Post
Don't you think discussions of how we use and develop these skills are useful?
No, not any more.
Men will doubt it till they felt them. I have now come to accept the fact that many from here have felt these skills and wrote about their experiences-and they are ignored as well.
It is intellectually dishonest and a damning statement about the true intent of these discussions here. The doubters have no choice but to ignore the many men and women who have gone out to test those with these skills. The doubters are openly ignoring an ever growing contingent from here -right here- at aikiweb, all from varied backgrounds who have felt these things. Were they, as a group, to be engaged, they would have to be believed. Or, as a group, called fools, liars, or incapable of discerning real applicable skills. That is much to difficult to do and would essentially fail. So , as a group they are ignored. It's.


[u]Aikido]/u]
I think it highly appropriate that discussion of these skills exist here being discussed as "a thing" outside of Aikido, non-Aikido related. While it is hilariously wrong, and stupifyingly ignorant to think so-it is just as well.
It is perhaps very appropriate and good that folks in Aikido are convinced that they have all they need.... in the art already.

Last edited by DH : 04-15-2007 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:50 AM   #158
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Personally I'll take Pete's 100%....so far. I think many folks have "some skill." Just as many can discuss "some things" till the cows come home. Saying and doing are 10,000 repititions and years of trial apart.
In fact what these arts have demonstrated CLEARLY to me is that most people didn't get the goods and probably never will. The discussion is beyond single arts or styles.
As for wondering where those who have these skills are and what proportion they may have? If you had these skills-you would stand out like a sore thumb in any Dojo. In direct proportion to the depth of your understanding-you could not exist in a dojo without standing out. If we argue our "group" all knows, then they will stand out.
And what group know it all? There are many expressions in the arts. Variations on a theme.

No, not any more.
Men will doubt it till they felt them. I have now come to accept the fact that many from here have felt these skills and wrote about their experiences-and they are ignored as well.
It is intellectually dishonest and a damning statement about the true intent of these discussions here. The doubters have no choice but to ignore the many men and women who have gone out to test those with these skills. The doubters are openly ignoring an ever growing contingent from here -right here- at aikiweb, all from varied backgrounds who have felt these things. Were they, as a group, to be engaged, they would have to be believed. Or, as a group, called fools, liars, or incapable of discerning real applicable skills. That is much to difficult to do and would essentially fail. So , as a group they are ignored. It's.

[u]Aikido]/u]
I think it highly appropriate that discussion of these skills exist here being discussed as "a thing" outside of Aikido, non-Aikido related. While it is hilariously wrong, and stupifyingly ignorant to think so-it is just as well.
It is perhaps very appropriate and good that folks in Aikido are convinced that they have all they need.... in the art already.
Well Dan I can say for me personally that I believe you, that there is much more to be learnt out there and that is at least one thing that will never change. I really look forward to the day that I get a chance to meet in person some of the people that I met over the internet. I have already learnt so much from people that have contributed to these discussions and it motivates me to search and keep an open mind about my training.
I hope that people take the opportunity to meet with you and anyone like you that can offer anything to aikido and budo.
For me, I'm on the other side of the world from pretty much everyone so I just try and extract as much as I can from these discussions and then put it to work.
For the time being though I am really satisfied that I do have access to a teacher that is worth his salt and then some. If Tohei has anything then I know he has it too. That being said, I now know there is more out there.

Thank you Dan.

http://brisbaneaikido.com

Brisbane Aikido Republic
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:41 AM   #159
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Thanks Pete.

I don't think there is anything being deliberately withheld in Ki-aikido but I can see the value of checking out different styles whenever the opportunity is available. For beginners though I think focused training in one style for many years is a must so I'm staying focused but I've got an eye out.

So, does anyone know if Akuzawa keeps an updated online tour schedule?
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Old 04-16-2007, 03:07 PM   #160
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The doubters have no choice but to ignore the many men and women who have gone out to test those with these skills. The doubters are openly ignoring an ever growing contingent from here -right here- at aikiweb, all from varied backgrounds who have felt these things.
Let's not go on a witchhunt for skeptics, try and shift the burden of evidence, or ignore the fact that many people skeptical of your claims have backgrounds themselves.

Those that say they cannot be pushed over, etc., are the ones that have the burden of evidence. If one adds up reports, even by reputable people, that does still not constitute evidence.

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-16-2007, 05:13 PM   #161
DH
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
Let's not go on a witchhunt for skeptics, try and shift the burden of evidence, or ignore the fact that many people skeptical of your claims have backgrounds themselves.

Those that say they cannot be pushed over, etc., are the ones that have the burden of evidence. If one adds up reports, even by reputable people, that does still not constitute evidence.

Justin
Hmm...
You are the one who continually questions on several counts
a. Whether we can do what we say
b. Whether static testing has any value as a training tool
c. When we discuss and others offer testimony of active, live resistance-, , not even just grappling but kicking and punching as well, you arbitrarily ignore them and almost without hesitation say...
"What good is static pushing on a chest?
Of course you can read Justin, and of course you're an intelligent guy, so the "baiting" as a reply leaves most here convinced you have an agenda.

Personally, I question your real intentions. Were you a neutral person with no agenda and were just wondering about us or what you refer to as "our claims" you would question and ask the now dozens of men from Japan, Canada, and all over the U.S. who are willing to answer you and tell you "You're wrong."

Years of doubt
After years of discussion, mostly sincere doubts, and many interesting discussions, many men and women from all over the world have gotten out to feel these things.
For anyone to stand in the face of dozens of men and women who have come back to report on their findings would have to be fairly substantial. Why?
These men and women who have written back, for the most part do not know each other, they have come to train, and in some cases not too nicely to "test" men from here. The men they have met to test for a long time never even met each other. Yet, here we have folks, over and over and over again stating essentially the same things. For anyone to tell them -all- they are full of it and/or they are incapable of making judgements on effective, applicable skills, in their given arts makes anyone look like a fool. So?
They are ignored as a source. failing to engage them or consider their input as credible. Reveals that you think you are superior to them. That you consider your judgement and discernment to be the final arbitor over all.
It also clearly states that while we opened our doors to dozens from all walks fo life to resolve some doubts in a friendly way-and gave up so much of our time for free-you- are sticking it in our faces for the effort and for offerring to do it hands on in the first place.....and ignoring it. And the baiting continues with everyone's approval.

I did what I said I would do and gave it a good shot at opening the doors.

Trolling that killed Aikido Journal
Your type of continuous baiting, while not offering any substance in reply-Killed Aikido Journal forums. Stan allowed men to bait and harangue serious posters with no reprieve. It continued unabated till eventually everyone who really had something to offer left.
I've lost interest in convincing anyone here any more. Its starting to stink with aganeda and intellectual dishonesty. I've lost interest in posting "past" all the noise, to talk to those who are genuinely interested. So, in the end Justin you win. YOU WON!
You can openly state you shut me up and caused me to leave Aikiweb.
I'm sure many will think Aikiweb the better of for it.
So did AIkido Journal.
See ya.

Last edited by DH : 04-16-2007 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 04-16-2007, 05:43 PM   #162
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Hi Justin,
what is your background then we can get a better perspective.

stan
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:26 PM   #163
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Well I'm glad Dan and Mike started these discussions because I've got a lot more data now than I did before. Thanks guys. I'm glad I came in time to be able to ask questions and get answers from several perspectives.

Last edited by Haowen Chan : 04-16-2007 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:47 PM   #164
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
Let's not go on a witchhunt for skeptics, try and shift the burden of evidence, or ignore the fact that many people skeptical of your claims have backgrounds themselves.

Those that say they cannot be pushed over, etc., are the ones that have the burden of evidence. If one adds up reports, even by reputable people, that does still not constitute evidence.

Justin
Really?

So when you go to court testimony isn't considered evidence?

When you have "expert witnesses" in court, their testimony isn't considered?

You have more than a few people who have felt Dan/Rob/Mike in an alive enviroment.

Last edited by HL1978 : 04-16-2007 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:17 PM   #165
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You are the one who continually questions on several counts
a. Whether we can do what we say
When someone makes the claim of not being able to be pushed over, and doesn't give any information on what the actual parameters were, nor video evidence, yes, expect to not be believed.

Quote:
For anyone to stand in the face of dozens of men and women who have come back to report on their findings would have to be fairly substantial. Why?
It probably has something to do with not believing testimony over evidence, and not seeing any actual video of said claims.

Justin

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"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:22 PM   #166
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
So when you go to court testimony isn't considered evidence?

When you have "expert witnesses" in court, their testimony isn't considered?
Court testimony counts as 'evidence' as far as the technical court definition of evidence goes. It does not, however, count as evidence as far as science goes.

Quote:
You have more than a few people who have felt Dan/Rob/Mike in an alive enviroment.
Do any of them have a video camera?

Justin

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"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:01 PM   #167
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Before Pete disappears completely.

[snip]

I suspect Pete may not have much experience with the Ki Society and it's offshoots, that's just a suspicion though I could be wrong.

Mike
I'm barely an outline now...

Mike,

You are correct about the Ki Society, my Aikido experience is elsewhere. But Mike S. posted his review of a Ki Society seminar, and I'm pretty sure I didn't read that he couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting an expert. I think it was something along the lines of "good starting point".

That you are not sure fajin is part of Aikido is telling. Fajin is not some bolted-on extra trick that has nothing to do with the core movement (like Bruce Lee's inch punch, for example). Short power is an expression of the same principles. I think one of the main reasons this skill was developed was because having power without windup gives various advantages. You can get a lot of power with momentum-based external techniques, and it's easier to learn, but there is a downside to throwing a big punch, or having to spin around when you miss a kick, etc. The strategic use of this power is to maintain the required structure in movement so that it is always instantly available. It's one of the reasons Aikido doesn't kick, for example (although that can be done with internal movement), and doesn't attack. To go after someone UFC-style is often done by compromising such a structure and overcommitting. If you time it wrong, you're wide open. Philosophy aside, this is not the strategy of Taiji or Aikido, and internal movement makes a different strategy possible. The art is clearly geared for this power in every way, and if it has internal movement it has fajin. Tohei said Aikido can kill with one punch for a reason.

[in a fading echoing voice] You can't have a high level understanding of internal movement and not have fajin...keep looking....
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:35 PM   #168
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Howard Chan wrote: View Post
So, does anyone know if Akuzawa keeps an updated online tour schedule?
To answer my own question... dug up a schedule on the Aunkai website, English version, under class info->monthly schedule->scroll to the bottom.
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Old 04-17-2007, 04:21 AM   #169
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
That you are not sure fajin is part of Aikido is telling.

SNIP

Tohei said Aikido can kill with one punch for a reason.
I know what Tohei said and I know what he was referring to, I've seen it felt it and done it, it was not fa-jin, well not very exactly. Don't have time to mess around trying to explain it. I'll only add that re Mike Sigman's opinion of the Ki Soc, I'm not a member of the Ki Soc, nor have I ever been, but our stuff does derive from Tohei. I also don't quite trust Mike's view of the Ki Soc because I know little of who exactly he has practiced with, and going to one or two seminars doesn't guarantee you're going to find what I'm talking about.

Far, far too much work to do from now until the end of summer. Won't see you around here anymore.

Mike

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Old 04-17-2007, 07:44 AM   #170
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
Court testimony counts as 'evidence' as far as the technical court definition of evidence goes. It does not, however, count as evidence as far as science goes.

Do any of them have a video camera?

Justin
yep poke around youtube and they can be found.
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Old 04-17-2007, 08:27 AM   #171
Aran Bright
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
yep poke around youtube and they can be found.
c'mon Hunter you've got to do better than that, at least a search string!


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Old 04-17-2007, 09:02 AM   #172
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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It probably has something to do with not believing testimony over evidence, and not seeing any actual video of said claims.
S#$@w, the video...get off your lazy butt and go see for yourself...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 04-17-2007, 10:48 AM   #173
M. McPherson
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
S#$@w, the video...get off your lazy butt and go see for yourself...

B,
R
I don't know, Ron...seems like video is the farthest Generation Spoon Fed is willing to go. Too bad, when you consider that you can find these things yourself, if you're willing to make the effort.

Oh, and thankfully the rain has held off today.

Best,
Murray
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Old 04-17-2007, 11:22 AM   #174
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I've lost interest in convincing anyone here any more. Its starting to stink with aganeda and intellectual dishonesty. I've lost interest in posting "past" all the noise, to talk to those who are genuinely interested. So, in the end Justin you win. YOU WON!
You can openly state you shut me up and caused me to leave Aikiweb.
I'm sure many will think Aikiweb the better of for it.
So did AIkido Journal.
Just use the "ignore function" folks... the "noise" goes way down along with the stress.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 04-17-2007, 11:51 AM   #175
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

You are of course, correct George. My appologies to the board...

R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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