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Old 04-15-2007, 10:34 PM   #51
L. Camejo
 
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Hmm. Interesting, Larry. I do think that MMA contact will improve one's aikido methodology. But what I can't shake is the argument from the MMA types that really, the take-home lesson should be, "Aikido doesn't work; stop doing it!"

As an aside, I'd invite people here to take a look at this thread I just started, on just what sorts of rulesets aikido might work well in:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12369
Hi Paul,

I hear you bro. The thing is we have as many people inside Aikido who say pretty much the same thing that the MMA-ers do. In the end imho the only way to really resolve issues in Budo (since they came from Bujutsu and still hold the martial essence) is to at some point meet others and test what you think you know without letting ego get in the way and learn from every instant of the experience. The way I see it folks can talk only so long, after a while someone has to get dropped or pinned to see the light and remove all questions. This is why I like MMA-ers and their ilk, the serious ones are no-nonsense folks and if you have the skills and can execute it on them you have their respect and they don't jibe about Aikido (or at least your Aikido) any more. But they have to be convinced and many in Aikido are either incapable or unwilling to do it. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

My experience however is that Aikido can be scarily effective against quite a lot of what is out there in close quarters engagements if one really understands how it is supposed to work strategically, understands how power generation and distribution works (regardless of fine or gross motor skills) and develop base skillsets that provide a solid foundation for one to develop ones Aiki skills. The foundation for this is found in drills and kihon designed to develop instinctive basic reactions that put one in place to execute waza (tsukuri) and body alignment, coordination, sensitivity and nervous system connection drills that give one the perceptive ability to detect, create and instinctively exploit the openings for waza. This must all be tested with resistance training (have someone not cooperate) and when things fail don't give up but seek to find out why without looking outside of Aikido for the answer. So far it has not failed me while sparring in Judo and Jujutsu while using their rules or when attacked on a dark night.

Just my thoughts. For those who really want to understand it the answers are there in plain sight.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 04-15-2007, 10:37 PM   #52
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Larry -- I feel I agree with you on a lot of this. I personally have grown kind of fond of MMAers no-nonsense, empirically-driven attitude. It's a very likable "Doubting Thomas" approach that cuts through a lot of speculation. Hooray for scientific inquiry.

If you have any particular observations on aikido technique in an MMA context, I'd of course love to hear it. I'm just starting to experiment with this myself.
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Old 04-16-2007, 12:38 AM   #53
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

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Thanks, Don. I'm going to keep working at this myself, though since I'm at such a lower experience level, I appreciate the chance to "cheat" a bit and just ask someone who's been working at it longer. For my part, I wonder if perhaps there's some way to exploit tenkan/irimi in the clinch and pre-clinch stages. I have no clue about boxing or other MMA striking, though; I'm mostly thinking from a grappling perspective. Like, "aikido vs. judo". In theory, the aikido person wants to neutralize the judo person's attempt to close up and put hands on shoulders...or so it seems.

William -- I have heard of Jason DeLucia, but it doesn't sound like he's really managed to employ aikido techniques in the ring. If you have some video evidence to the contrary, I'd be fascinated to see it.

Morgan -- MMA fighters work very hard, using well-tested techniques optimized in the here-and-now for sportfighting. Now, are aikidoka also cultivating some sort of martial skill? I don't know, and that's part of what I'm trying to figure out. (I think I'll start a post on the "context" of aikido shortly.) But for example, Gozo Shioda remarked that in his view, most boxers would beat most aikidoka. And those are hardcore early days aikidoka, who often had a well-rounded martial background. His reason? Boxers have more practice with live timing. I am wondering what Shioda felt the training solution might be.
Interesting comparisons and I can see why you're confused. Aikido is a practice which takes a bit longer than boxing to master and it's objective are vastly different than a boxers would be... Does that mean Aikido doesn't work? Only if you prefer apples over oranges

As for Jason well like I said... drill down...the information is there. or better yet ask him yourself. He is very approachable.

I think you should put things into a better context with regard to your comparision especially when you talk about MMA "fighters" versus Aikidoka. I am not so sure (at least in my experiance) that an experianced & skilled Aikidoka is at such a disadvantage. Some forms of Aikido have been taught in L.E. for decades along with BJJ and boxing...All are "effective" in the right hands and in the right situation. Martial Awareness is the key. I do agree however that most beginning Aikidoka will not hold up against a beginning boxer for a completely different reason. In fact most regular folks won't either. The reason. Most Aikidoka have no experiance with "surviving" being hit hard in the face or the skill of centering and focusing DISPITE the aydrenaline dump that goes with full on conflict/contact. that takes a few years of Kumite at a minimum. Boxers learn this the second they start sparring. As Mike Tyson has said "Everyone has a plan until you hit them in the mouth." it's hard though to spar or go full contact without a set of rules or knowledge of proper Ukemi. Boxers are not focused on the "Killing Blow" in Karate for example, or taking out someone's knee in Judo, or putting someone on their head in Aikido.Heck those are just the "softer" Gendai Arts. Koryu is all about combat.LOL In general most Martial Arts are about DESTRUCTION with the noted possible exception of Aikido & Tai Chi (the softer forms). On the other hand MMA has evolved into mixing some different skillsets into a SPORT.

You said you don't know if Aikido helps folk cultivate some sort of Martial Skill. Well certainly there are some folks who have diluted Aikido to the point of where it seems like Yoga with a partner. However I assure you among Aikido's ranks are some serious Martial Artists. Thier intention is for Aikido to continue as BUDO FIRST... in the spirit of O'Sensei.

Here's a question back at you. Can you expain the "Martial" in Mixed "Martial" Arts? What meaning does "Martial" have for you? And if MMA is truely Martial then shouldn't MMA matches "evolve" to the point where they are to the death? (Brings to mind a dear friend of mine whom I worked with several years ago who teaches Hawaiian Kempo, and is a senior Yudansha with "The Pit" Dojo. Yup... Chuck Liddel's Dojo. He killed a man in a "sport" match without intending to, and I am told it has haunted him ever since)

Perhaps my question will help clarify things for you.

Respectfully

William Hazen
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Old 04-16-2007, 04:00 AM   #54
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Hmm. Interesting, Larry. I do think that MMA contact will improve one's aikido methodology. But what I can't shake is the argument from the MMA types that really, the take-home lesson should be, "Aikido doesn't work; stop doing it!"
despite lots of claims to the contrary - this really isn't a claim I see alot of people, MMA or otherwise making. There is sometimes discussion around what aikido is good for, what it is not good for. But rarely do I see anyone but the most rabid extremist suggest that aikido shold become extinct....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:51 AM   #55
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very interesting thus far!

I'm the original poster, so I thought it'd be time for me to chime in again. So far, good discussion! Thanks to all who have participated. This is indeed a hot topic, touching on matters that seem to be on many other peoples' minds as well.

My main concern is over the future of Aikido in America. As I mentioned in the beginning, I am curious as to who will "take over" Aikido once the Baby Boomer instructors/sensei retire and how it will change Aikido in light of the current "fad" in the martial arts community: the MMA?

Personally, I think that the overly-commercialized MMA fad will fall out of style in a few years, just as a previous poster noted. However, the so-called "challenge" of the MMA to Aikido will have further reaching consequences because previous martial arts fads didn't have the power of the internet to keep it alive.

To put it colloquially: Aikido doesn't suck. However, if enough people say Aikido sucks over and over again, it eventually becomes subliminal, a sort of knee-jerk reaction. Example: all politicians are crooks & liars. Although there are many politicians who are indeed crooks & liars, not all of them are. In fact, many are honest and hard-working. However, it is indeed engrained in our collective subconscious to naturally distrust public officials. Get my point?
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:18 AM   #56
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Re: very interesting thus far!

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Brian Dewey wrote: View Post

To put it colloquially: Aikido doesn't suck. However, if enough people say Aikido sucks over and over again, it eventually becomes subliminal, a sort of knee-jerk reaction. Example: all politicians are crooks & liars. Although there are many politicians who are indeed crooks & liars, not all of them are. In fact, many are honest and hard-working. However, it is indeed engrained in our collective subconscious to naturally distrust public officials. Get my point?
In other words you're talking about are meme's. The meme "all Politicians are crooks" has been around since before the founding of the Republic and is well ingrained in the publics mind. The meme "Aikido sucks" only exists on a few websites, and in All the UFC/Pride/K-1 I've watched over the years I have never seen any professional fighters speak too badly or loudly about any Gendai Martial Art including Aikido in the mainstream media.

I will agree though that these days when some idiot in power says there was a link between Al Qwacky and Saddam and another says Smoking Mushroom Cloud enough times a certain percentage of folks will believe any lie any authority figure tells them. The Big Lies often work for a time, even though they are refuted over and over again by the facts. That can be the true power of modern internet based media. However without a huge amount of coverage in other forms of media and a certain amount of visual factual evidence/annecdotes, the meme "Aikido sucks" will never gain enough traction to overtake the meme "Aikido works" since there are 60+ years of multimedia and facts to support it.

Thankfully most folks who have viewed the website(s) in question can descern the blowhards from the few professionals that are on those sites.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 04-16-2007 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:04 AM   #57
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Re: very interesting thus far!

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
the meme "Aikido sucks" will never gain enough traction to overtake the meme "Aikido works" since there are 60+ years of multimedia and facts to support it.
60+ years of multimedia?

I've never yet seen aikido being employed (successfully or not) against a live opponent. I've looked into DeLucia; he himself at most says he's used a couple of techniques. Meanwhile, he's pretty much the only one. I've seen that "Muay Thai Vs. Aikido" video, but that's light sparring at best; cooperative showboating at worst.

This is the central empirical problem. I can believe it working -- absolutely. But I have little evidence other than my own experience, which is mixed at best.
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:22 AM   #58
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Re: very interesting thus far!

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
60+ years of multimedia?

I've never yet seen aikido being employed (successfully or not) against a live opponent. I've looked into DeLucia; he himself at most says he's used a couple of techniques. Meanwhile, he's pretty much the only one. I've seen that "Muay Thai Vs. Aikido" video, but that's light sparring at best; cooperative showboating at worst.

This is the central empirical problem. I can believe it working -- absolutely. But I have little evidence other than my own experience, which is mixed at best.
Then you need to keep looking. The emperical problem you refer to is based on a lack of knowledge and experiance. Despite numerous attempts by well meaning posters here to help you and tons of information availible about Aikido you are still unable to reach a conclusion?

Let's cut to the chase young man. What is your real motive?

William Hazen

PS. Yes 60+ years. There is film footage and print media of O'Sensei availible that dates back to the 1930s! Before he "started" Aikido. LOL

Last edited by Aikibu : 04-16-2007 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:43 AM   #59
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Re: very interesting thus far!

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
I'm the original poster, so I thought it'd be time for me to chime in again. So far, good discussion! Thanks to all who have participated. This is indeed a hot topic, touching on matters that seem to be on many other peoples' minds as well.

My main concern is over the future of Aikido in America. As I mentioned in the beginning, I am curious as to who will "take over" Aikido once the Baby Boomer instructors/sensei retire and how it will change Aikido in light of the current "fad" in the martial arts community: the MMA?

Personally, I think that the overly-commercialized MMA fad will fall out of style in a few years, just as a previous poster noted. However, the so-called "challenge" of the MMA to Aikido will have further reaching consequences because previous martial arts fads didn't have the power of the internet to keep it alive.

To put it colloquially: Aikido doesn't suck. However, if enough people say Aikido sucks over and over again, it eventually becomes subliminal, a sort of knee-jerk reaction. Example: all politicians are crooks & liars. Although there are many politicians who are indeed crooks & liars, not all of them are. In fact, many are honest and hard-working. However, it is indeed engrained in our collective subconscious to naturally distrust public officials. Get my point?
I do not think MMA is a fad, I think it is the new boxing. Within a few years it is going to be as ubiquitous as boxing in its peak. MMA has grown beyond martial arts. It is a full fledge sport. There are fighters now that have never taken a bjj class, or a tkd class, they learned to fight for the ring. They don't care if tkd works, or if aikido works, because those are martial arts, and martial arts are for dorks who can't do sports.

As for the future of aikido. I'm not too worried. My only concern is that as more people take aikido as their first martial art and become teachers themselves, that there will be application lost in the translation of theory. With the exception of the tomiki guys, most aikidoka do not put in to practice their theory. This is usually ok if you have a contact sparing background like judo, because you have a realistic idea of how a encounter works. However, without that experience, there is a high potential for things to be lost in the translation, or done a different way because it was easier, etc. Eventually leading to a watering down of effectiveness. Soon, people are doing something they are sure is ultra deadly, but no one has even tested it in 3 generations or more of teachers, and there is no way it would work.

This is why Matt Thornton's comments on alivenss are more important to aikido then MMA effect on aikido. Aliveness needs to be taken to heart and practiced IMHO. Anyone who has been in a full contact sparing match or even a resistance based drill can tell you theory and practice are far different then you would imagine.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-16-2007, 11:05 AM   #60
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Here's a question: why is there no trapping (as in the majority of aikido waza) in MMA? Or perhaps I should ask, has anyone managed to pull off locks against a good, resisting opponent?

Is aikido just made up of low-percentage techniques? Or are there just not enough skilled aikido people trying MMA?
I think there are a couple of different ways of looking at it.

In one sense, MMAists use Aikido locks all the time. Or to be more precise, MMAists and Aikidoists use the same locks differently. There are only so many positions for locking an arm; the Filipinos identify them as branch out, branch up, and branch down. There are only so many ways to lock the wrist, too. By definition, any system using joint locks uses these reference points, and doesn't matter whether it's standing or on the ground. BJJ's juji garame and Aikido's elbow lock are the same thing because they're both branch out, even though the former is executed on the back and the latter is done standing.

In another sense, one issue is that freestyle training has to be consistent with what an art does inorder to try it techniques in those areas. Most Aikido techniques, when you're doing them, involve nage starting out at almost boxing range but then getting very close to uke, sometimes body-to-body, for all or part of the technique, and "traditionally" stops short of ground fighting. So it is not kickboxing and not ground grappling but nestled somewhere in between; most MMA people probably blast through that range during a takedown. Furthermore, 99% of the time, Aikidoists go for a joint lock right off the bat (shiho nage included; it's really a branch up shoulder lock); doing that sort of thing freestyle is a question of safety so musles and ligaments don't get torn.

Can aikido-style locks be applied kick-boxing? Probably, but it has to be touch-and-go, automatic, without time to think about it! I was sparring with my jun fan sifu some weeks ago, and at one point he through a jab; when I felt the crotch of his elbow go under my lead arm, I autmatically brought both arms down and plastered his forearm to my chest. I wasn't sure how to go for a lock from there (although he liked it), but the point is that was an automatic reaction; if I had tought, "Oh, I'll try this trap," it would have been too late.

So I look on the repitition of Aikido techniques as the meat and potatoes of the training; I see it as repetitive drilling meant to hardwire those reference points into you so you instantly recognize them. It may not be a good way to get intellectual understanding, but that's not what they want -- they want to ingraine something. How that comes out kickboxing or grappling, I don't know for sure, but that's what you can look for in that training. It's also why I think once a week is minimum for Aikido training if you're looking to get anything out of it; otherwise you won't retain enough.

Please let me know if this makes any sense.
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Old 04-16-2007, 01:20 PM   #61
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

The thing that always seems to get lost in these discussions is the Why you are doing what you are doing?
What is the endstate of your training?
What are the situations you are training for?

We all start making assumptions and talk in very general and macroscopic terms about MMA and aikido and how it works doesn't etc.

With respect to training...what is the "point of aim and the point of impact?" to use a shooting term.

I cover this when my guys start talking about training methodologies. What is the situation you see yourself in?

Is it Sport Fighting MMA?

Is it being jumped unsuspecting in an alley?

It is conducting a room clearing operation?

Is it arresting someone?

Is it the "gimme your wallet" scenario?

Is it the whole "I want to learn more about myself, peace and harmony thing?"

Is it the I just like doing it thing?

Once we have established this criteria, then we can more clearly look at the proper methologies, tactics, techniques, and procedures for training.

Other than that, we are only talking in very general terms upon which we can never agree.

Then once you define the endstate, you can then discuss the proper parameters, rules, constraints, control measures to put in place to best approximate what you want to train on.

It is never a one size fits all, or a one methodology is the way to go frame work.

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Old 04-16-2007, 02:08 PM   #62
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
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... But rarely do I see anyone but the most rabid extremist suggest that aikido shold become extinct....
You need to surf the web a bit more

Quote:
It is the view of the author that given the above conclusions Aikido constitutes a dangerous cult which targets vulnerable people, and subjects them to a terrible regime of hypnotic mind-control. I believe that such a practice has no place in a modern civilization, and that nothing less than a worldwide ban on Aikido would improve the situation.
http://www.geocities.com/andygow9/

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Old 04-16-2007, 02:12 PM   #63
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Paul wrote:

Quote:
Can a martial art really have techniques that "require cooperation"? Drills or principle-based exercises, maybe, like kokyu dosa. Still, it seems like aikido techniques should have a purpose beyond just "principle exercises".
All martial arts that I have practiced including MMA methodolgies and BJJ have drills and techniques that require cooperation. The difference in my experiences deals with the concept of aliveness from Matt Thornton. Aliveness is not something you can quantifiably define, I think, except you "know it when you see it and feel it." that said, many can be fooled into thinking what they know and see is alive when indeed it is not! Ask me how I know this!

In my experiences many schools in aikido have either intentionally or unintentionally removed the aliveness aspects of training. This may not be true for all schools and teachers for sure. I think though that this is true for most budo arts and is the brunt of the criticism from many in the Aliveness, or MMA community.

For an example of an statement of training philosophy look at Aikido Shobukan Dojo (my organization's dojo).

http://www.aikido-shobukan.org/?ref=42

Please don't interpret this as a criticism on my part or a inherent flaw with aikido or ASU...it is simply the philosophy as Saotome Sensei as he interprets it from O'Sensei and what he learned. Also if you study with Saotome Sensei you will understand quickly that he personally understands aliveness, albeit he takes a different approach to it...one which I don't believe focuses on developing fighting proweness, but does tend to instill the qualities he sees important in the study of aikido.

ASU, aikido, at least in my experiences, focuses on certain aspects of budo which are beyond the realm or concern of fighting skill.

Within this context, I think it is easy to demonstrate in many scenarios the importance of aikido, maybe not directly in fighting skills, but in many ways that can help people internally as well as externally to deal appropriately with conflict....sometimes in a very skillful manner. Alot of what I think is important about aikido is the concept of transcedence. that is, that we can transcend the daily physical processes of conflict and deal with them in a more refined and skillful way.

Looking at aikido simply as a martial art designed for fighting and comparing it to MMA and that it will become obsolete as it is some how exposed is not a good analogy. Again, I refer to ASU's website...it says nothing that would remotely illude to anything that would even put it in the same category as BJJ or MMA as practiced by many.

That is not to say that an Aikidoka cannot expand his or her knowledge and understanding of things that are martial from the study of MMA or a non-compliant type practice. Frankly I think there is much value in this type of study if you really want to understand the components of what makes this stuff work in a physical sense.

I think the message from O'Sensei and his senior students like Saotome sensei is that you don't need to do focus on the physical aspects of martial arts in order to learn the lessons that he thought that budo could teach us.

Many of us though, like myself, have a need to go through this process in a different manner. We don't so readily accept things at face value and must learn these lessons on our own. O'Sensei might indeed shake his head at me and say, such a waste of time, if they'd only listen!

Anyway that is my take on purpose.

I'd recommend reading Matt Thornton's blog on aliveness.

I think on a personal level there is much that can be learned from this concept. It does not mean that aikido needs to change, or should change the way we practice it. Aliveness is nothing new within the martial world...just new to most of us in the U.S and modern world as it has been re-introduced after being absent I think for a long time!

It may be that many of us must re-learn the lessons the hard way!

Anyway, I refer to my previous post....why are you training, and what do you want from it? Easy question to ask...not so easy to answer, I know!

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Old 04-16-2007, 02:32 PM   #64
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You need to surf the web a bit more

http://www.geocities.com/andygow9/
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Old 04-16-2007, 02:39 PM   #65
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Paul Wrote:

Quote:
I noticed that a couple times, you used terms like "as practiced by most" and "typically". This to me brings up the question of styles of aikido. Which style do you practice? (Both of you, I guess?) Do you think that pre-war style practice makes one better able to actually implement waza as "viable takedowns" rather than "principle exercises"?
ASU is what I practice. I could not comment as a competent authority on what he did pre-war as I am not a scholar in this area. I would conjecture though that O'sensei evolved and grew (I would hope) to the point of refinement in which he stripped away all that he thought was unecessary to the goals of aiki so we could just concentrate on those aspects that would best instill the lessons he thought aikido could teach us.

So, why are we so fascinated with turning this back into diatyo Ryu? Why not study that?

I think most of us simply want to be the best we can be. Physically, Mentally, Emotionally, and Spiritually. Most of us don't really understand exactly what that means even though we all think we do! We all kinda have a mental pictue in our brains of what we think perfection is...or better yet "what quality is!" (Read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance). However, we all, myself included, probably don't spend enough time thinking about what that really means and what the cost of that is.

What we are probably really after is happiness. What does it take to achieve this?

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Old 04-16-2007, 02:49 PM   #66
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

I would not say I agree with that hypothesis Ricky

I leave it to others to chop to pieces in our passive/agressive ways!

I would say that I can see his point of view. There is some truths. Aikido is an art that explores the duality of passive/agreesiveness/submissiveness/pacifism. It does look towards violence to achieve peace.

I would say, that for many, aikido can be cult-like and many carry the philosophy and follow things blindly to a degree of fundamentalism. I think this is true in just about all things religious, spiritual, philosophical in nature.

There are also many that are looking towards aikido making into something it is not as well. That is, they have expectations of the art that it simply will not fulfill no matter how much they really wish it would! Again, true of just about any group or practice.

I am not sure he is accurate with his definition of hypnotism though.

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Old 04-16-2007, 04:42 PM   #67
L. Camejo
 
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Aikido is about transcendence, I tend to agree.

On transcendence - from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transcendence

transcendence

noun
1. a state of being or existence above and beyond the limits of material experience
2. the state of excelling or surpassing or going beyond usual limits

How do I go "beyond the limits of material experience" or "beyond usual limits" without first knowing what those limits are? How do I transcend the need for conflict without truly understanding the nature of conflict and how it relates to my own nature?

Imho Ueshiba M. transcended because he understood what he was transcending. He met his demons, faced them, forged his spirit through them and at some point moved beyond them. He deeply studied combat, conflict and fighting to find a way beyond these things. So I wonder where do folks get the impression that by not understanding conflict, by always engaging in an artificially created harmony we will be able to transcend conflict?

The good thing about MMA and the like is that facing yourself is part and parcel of facing your opponent (Budo should also provide this option). Your opponent is your teacher, he shows you your weaknesses via the medium of challenge and you need to find a way to transcend these weaknesses to excel in training. When you transcend your own weaknesses you transcend your opponent through the visible manifestation of winning a bout or submitting him or whatever.

If one does not ever have to deal with adversity one is never challenged to truly look at the self and find ways to transcend. In this light the absence of true conflict in Aikido training is actually a good way to ensure that one never transcends it, since one never really gets the chance to see the true self when it appears to face its own demons.

The negative traits that people exhibit when in the pressure of competition or conflict are precisely what they need to bring out their true selves and find ways to truly transcend conflict.

Imho.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 04-16-2007 at 04:44 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:58 PM   #68
Aikibu
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Aikido is about transcendence, I tend to agree.

On transcendence - from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transcendence

transcendence

noun
1. a state of being or existence above and beyond the limits of material experience
2. the state of excelling or surpassing or going beyond usual limits

How do I go "beyond the limits of material experience" or "beyond usual limits" without first knowing what those limits are? How do I transcend the need for conflict without truly understanding the nature of conflict and how it relates to my own nature?

Imho Ueshiba M. transcended because he understood what he was transcending. He met his demons, faced them, forged his spirit through them and at some point moved beyond them. He deeply studied combat, conflict and fighting to find a way beyond these things. So I wonder where do folks get the impression that by not understanding conflict, by always engaging in an artificially created harmony we will be able to transcend conflict?

The good thing about MMA and the like is that facing yourself is part and parcel of facing your opponent (Budo should also provide this option). Your opponent is your teacher, he shows you your weaknesses via the medium of challenge and you need to find a way to transcend these weaknesses to excel in training. When you transcend your own weaknesses you transcend your opponent through the visible manifestation of winning a bout or submitting him or whatever.

If one does not ever have to deal with adversity one is never challenged to truly look at the self and find ways to transcend. In this light the absence of true conflict in Aikido training is actually a good way to ensure that one never transcends it, since one never really gets the chance to see the true self when it appears to face its own demons.

The negative traits that people exhibit when in the pressure of competition or conflict are precisely what they need to bring out their true selves and find ways to truly transcend conflict.

Imho.
LC
Oustanding post Sensei. Thank You.

William Hazen
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:11 PM   #69
CNYMike
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You need to surf the web a bit more

http://www.geocities.com/andygow9/
I wonder what a professional cult deprogrammer whould make of Mr. Gow's writings. Would he nod in agreement or roll his eyes?

Personlly, I think the latter, but what do I know? I've been hypnotized! (And I could say the same thing about other articles on the web about organized martial arts.)
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:26 PM   #70
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: very interesting thus far!

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Then you need to keep looking. The emperical problem you refer to is based on a lack of knowledge and experiance. Despite numerous attempts by well meaning posters here to help you and tons of information availible about Aikido you are still unable to reach a conclusion?

Let's cut to the chase young man. What is your real motive?

William Hazen

PS. Yes 60+ years. There is film footage and print media of O'Sensei availible that dates back to the 1930s! Before he "started" Aikido. LOL
I will continue looking, then. I'm glad (albeit surprised) to hear that the footage is out there.

My real motive might take a moment to explain. I agree with much of how Larry has described it. I like to use the omote/ura explanation; I think the ura of aikido (greater awareness and sensitivity, interpersonal understanding, balance, etc.) to be far more valuable for most people in today's world than the omote (throwing and pinning people). But I don't think you can separate them, or say something like, "Hmm, today, I'm going to practice 20% omote, and 80% ura." As a result, I feel it important to investigate the application of aikido in various martial contexts, to better understand what sort of omote goals we might be striving for. Karate's omote might be hitting hard or with good timing; judo's omote might be throwing someone from a hands-on-shoulders range. Aikido's seems to be trapping at a bit farther than judo range, but it's not entirely clear what sort of context (e.g. attacks) this trapping is meant to happen with regard to.

So that's my motive, if that makes sense - trying to be sincere about my practice, lest I start trying to reap rewards without also doing "the hard part". If Ueshiba-sensei had come from a background of tea ceremony and dance, an "aikido" still might have developed, but it would not have the unique beauty that only a martial art can have.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:52 PM   #71
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You need to surf the web a bit more

http://www.geocities.com/andygow9/
Well to be fair I did say "except for the most rabid extremists". I'd say this turkey qualifies...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:54 PM   #72
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The thing that always seems to get lost in these discussions is the Why you are doing what you are doing? .
As usual Kevin has sumi otoshi'd the correct.

You see I rarely see MMAer, BJJers, whoever, say anyone should just stop practicing Aikido. What I do see is them challenging people that Aikido will not give them what they think it will. The debate is more often about what aikido is good "for". Sometimes that's explict sometimes it's not. But it's generally what the debate is about.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:03 PM   #73
Dewey
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You need to surf the web a bit more

http://www.geocities.com/andygow9/
For an assault on the senses, perhaps you need to snoop around Bullshido.net, the premiere fan site for the MMA. March of '07 was officially declared "Aikido sucks" month. Simply go there and search "aikido" in their search engine...you'll see.
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:12 PM   #74
statisticool
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Quote:
5th Kyu grade


Quote:
This is the key difference between Aikido and other martial arts: in Aikido there is no competition between practitioners.
Perhaps Aikido realizes the real competition is within yourself?

Quote:
Instead of fighting to develop skill, the person who is to be thrown (called the Uke) submits her body to the person who is to practice the throw (called the Nage).

Although initially the Uke attacks the Nage, it is with full knowledge that the attack will fail and result in their being thrown. This is the method of training: the Uke submits her body to the Nage for four throws and then they swap over. This continues until Sensei (the instructor) calls a break for a demonstration with a chosen Uke.

The result of this is that during training each practitioner is required to submit to many techniques and endure any pain and consequent aggressive feelings which might arise. It is indicated that this continuous submission in the face of pain builds spirit. In actual fact the student is being trained to submitto control in spite of any emotional, physical or psychological pain they experience.

This has no parallel in other, competitive martial arts as a key point is usually preventing the oppponent from controlling and causing pain, either by a block, evasion or counter-strike.
That is entirely false. In fact, any partner drill with some parameters in any martial art can be said to have a Uke and a Nage.

I wonder if he would say the Tokyo Riot Police are in a state of hypnosis?

Fun read!

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:21 PM   #75
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
I wonder if he would say the Tokyo Riot Police are in a state of hypnosis?
The conspiracy goes even higher than we thought!
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