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Old 04-10-2007, 07:51 PM   #1
divinecedar
 
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Kokyu Nage

Could anyone offer suggestions to improve kokyu nage (esp. in randori)? Insights into proper breathing would be very helpful. Exemplary videos would also be useful! This particular video seems like a good one, but I would like to see others as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LhV5nsEYqM

Thanks!
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Old 04-10-2007, 08:38 PM   #2
Aristeia
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Quote:
Cody Bruce wrote: View Post
e to see others as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LhV5nsEYqM

Thanks!
Did you see that! That guy just attacked two guys who were innocently standing around! Call the police!

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:25 PM   #3
divinecedar
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Exactly...and he does it with style.
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Old 04-11-2007, 06:02 AM   #4
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Quote:
Cody Bruce wrote: View Post
Could anyone offer suggestions to improve kokyu nage (esp. in randori)? Insights into proper breathing would be very helpful.
IMHO, I think of Kokyu-nage as timing throws in which your movement gets the uke to lose balance. Breath in as you enter and blend, and out as you let them fall. Stay relaxed and smooth.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-11-2007, 08:04 AM   #5
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, I think of Kokyu-nage as timing throws in which your movement gets the uke to lose balance. Breath in as you enter and blend, and out as you let them fall. Stay relaxed and smooth.
Hi Lynn, Isn't this how all waza is supposed to work? I don't like the word "blend" much... I prefer "fit with good timing." Nitpicky, I know...

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 04-11-2007, 09:02 AM   #6
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
Hi Lynn, Isn't this how all waza is supposed to work? I don't like the word "blend" much... I prefer "fit with good timing." Nitpicky, I know...
Osu,

I would agree that its the basis for all waza. In fact, I tend to think of all waza as Kokyu-nage (even if they are given other specific names).

"Fit with good timimg" works for me. Niypicky is good. I remember now to "cut" not "pull".

Rei. Domo.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-11-2007, 10:11 AM   #7
Rod Yabut
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Take the 2 points above this post. They are good.

Also, take A LOT of ukemi (I am assuming you can take care of yourself on the mat since you are doing randori now) from who you think does randori best in your dojo. IMO, you learn a lot by doing this.

Good luck!
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Old 04-11-2007, 07:04 PM   #8
Aristeia
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Osu,

I would agree that its the basis for all waza. In fact, I tend to think of all waza as Kokyu-nage (even if they are given other specific names).
*nods*. Our running joke used to be if you didn't know the name for a technique - it must be a kokyu nage.

I tend to view kokyu throws as the unbalancing stage of the other waza done so effectively that nothing else is needed.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 04-11-2007, 07:35 PM   #9
divinecedar
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Thanks for the advice!
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Old 04-12-2007, 06:44 AM   #10
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Re: Kokyu Nage

[quote=Michael Fooks;175246Our running joke used to be if you didn't know the name for a technique - it must be a kokyu nage.[/QUOTE]
Oh, that was a joke?

Unless otherwise specificied, it is Kokyu-nage. If it is specified, it is still Kokyu-nage.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:58 AM   #11
Okami
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Hello all! I don't mean to criticize or anything but that video that was on your link in my opinion wasn't very good. My biggest problem that I saw was he was going directly into the uke. A big mistake, even if you use breath power it will not work on everyone, especially if the uke was rooted. So there some advice for kokyu nage, don't go straight in
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Old 04-16-2007, 02:55 PM   #12
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Quote:
Sean Vayda wrote: View Post
Hello all! I don't mean to criticize or anything but that video that was on your link in my opinion wasn't very good. My biggest problem that I saw was he was going directly into the uke. A big mistake, even if you use breath power it will not work on everyone, especially if the uke was rooted. So there some advice for kokyu nage, don't go straight in
Hm.

Things are not always what they seem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE4IkPzJOo4

Tangential or centripetal additions to the attacker's motion happen in the vertical as well as the horizontal planes. That is why you see (particularly in the first fifteen or twenty seconds) in the video compilation of Shioda I give above, the strong vertical plane rotations of various uke's torsos taking the feet forward as well as his upper body back, i.e -- it is a whole-body rotation about his center of mass -- NOT a tackle toppling him over from a fixed point of support on the ground.

The centripetal-tangential action is there, but in the x-z or y-z planes or some radial of them -- and almost none in the x-y plane, which seems to be what you are addressing.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 04-17-2007, 06:36 AM   #13
Okami
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Alas you are correct with your calculations but I think you have missed one thing. Shioda almost always does an atemi, leading his uke's mind and ki and when he doesn't he is using ki to throw his uke. Now the previous thread I was speaking of, the man was shoving into his attacker and they were falling, not good, he didn't even atemi
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Old 04-17-2007, 08:00 AM   #14
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Quote:
Sean Vayda wrote: View Post
Alas you are correct with your calculations but I think you have missed one thing. Shioda almost always does an atemi, leading his uke's mind and ki and when he doesn't he is using ki to throw his uke. Now the previous thread I was speaking of, the man was shoving into his attacker and they were falling, not good, he didn't even atemi
Atemi is a proper expression of ki no kokyu. If it isn't -- its just whacking the opponent.

Shioda was not just leading the mind and ki of his opponents he was dustmopping the mat with the structure of their bodies. The other video was far less subtle, far less precise, and involved more absorbed impact, on both sides (i.e.-- kinetic energy that is lost to entropy vice projected through the opponent). That gentleman was entering directly, losing energy in some impact, then converting into some horizontal components, also losing some energy because his uke's were not given the time or space to develop their own motion on those planes before he forced it. He is doing most of the work, rather than allowing uke to contribute more substantially to the interaction.

So much of what is seen in Shioda's video never leaves the initial plane of movement. But his uke's motions are allowed to developed fully ( albeit in many cases uke is required to develop his movement almost instantaneously, becasue of the nature of the demonstration given.) He never "pushes" nor absorbs contact forces, but extends fully -- moving through the opponent completely. But the other video is not entirely wrong either, whatever its other faults in execution.

Many people have this problem moving directly through the opponent with full extension. So, in a sense, they end up going just a little bit "around" them, rather than going fully and directly to the center with complete extension and allowing no option but to go around you. I have found that training where the extension and irimi are always complete, and slowing the interaction down to whatever level permits allow uke the time to develop his own part in the movement trains a better flow and rhythm, which can then be applied at nearly any speed.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 04-17-2007, 08:23 AM   #15
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Kokyu Nage

The differences between the clip above, and similarly arranged clips of Shioda, are very telling. In my opinion, some of the material in the non-aikido martial traditions sections would explain some of the differences noted above.

Best,
Ron (For What It's Worth, In My Opinion, Pardon the Intrusion, etc., etc., etc.)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-17-2007, 10:45 PM   #16
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Osu,

I remember now to "cut" not "pull".

Rei. Domo.
Golly Gee Lynn... Where did you learn that???

Namaste

William Hazen
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Old 04-19-2007, 08:47 AM   #17
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Re: Kokyu Nage

Hey have you seen Robert Mustard Sensei's kokyu nage. Look him up on google videos and he'll be there. The key to it is timing. Waiting until the attack is just about to hit you then moving out the way so that the aggressors energy continues on and you guide them down with an almighty splat! Breathing i would think would be in when they start the attack and out when you execute the kokyu nage and guide the arm. Hope this helps a bit
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