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Old 09-03-2004, 04:57 AM   #51
PeterR
 
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Re: ueshiba and chinese martial arts

Mark - trips to visit Kenji Tomiki in Manchuria were done before the war ended. After the war of course the Japanese were booted out of Manchuria with several, including Kenji Tomiki, imprisoned by the Russians.

It was quite a few years before Japanese started to make trips back to China.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-03-2004, 05:01 AM   #52
Mark Balogh
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Re: ueshiba and chinese martial arts

Thanks Peter, my mistake.

I know that I can't show sources, but I would speculate that it is pretty likely O'sensei went back after this time. Does anyone know for sure?
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Old 09-03-2004, 07:34 AM   #53
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: ueshiba and chinese martial arts

Quote:
Mark Balogh wrote:
Thanks Peter, my mistake.

I know that I can't show sources, but I would speculate that it is pretty likely O'sensei went back after this time. Does anyone know for sure?
Hello,

I think that if Morihei Ueshiba visited China after the war, the aikido world would have known about it. He was cloistered in Iwama until around 1956.

It is clear that he visited Hawaii after WWII, but I think it highly unlikely that he would have made a secret postwar visit to China, unknown to anyone else in the aikido world, and also studied Chinese martial arts.

Where is the evidence?

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 09-03-2004, 03:32 PM   #54
Chris Li
 
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Re: ueshiba and chinese martial arts

Quote:
Mark Balogh wrote:
That doesn't sound very likely Chris.

I am sure I read something the other day about O'sensei going out to China regularly to visit someone. It may have been Tomiki according to this Fujita Sensei interview in Aikido Journal #120.

AJ: I understand your father learned aikido from Ueshiba Sensei in Manchuria.
Fujita: Yes, he was originally a judo man and he continued to practice judo during his work posting in Manchuria. There was a group called the Manchuria Budo Society (Manshu Budokai) whose members got together to practice not only judo, but kendo, sumo and other arts as well. My father was one of those involved in running this group and so he knew quite a few of the people practicing other martial arts. It was through that connection that he learned aikido when Morihei Ueshiba was invited to Manchuria. He trained with people like Kenji Tomiki (1900-1979), who was a professor at Manchuria's Kenkoku University, and sumo wrestler Saburo Wakuta (1903-1989, also known as Tenryu, a well-known wrestler who began learning aikido after being impressed by the techniques of Morihei Ueshiba).


The article is here...

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=103
Everything the article is talking about is pre-war (and pre-Nishio) trips to occupied China. Those are well documented. In order to have gone with Nishio he would have had to make post-war trips, and there is no record of that.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-29-2004, 03:21 PM   #55
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Re: Chinese Martial Arts and Aikido

Quote:
Maybe taoist orientated but I don't think its taoist derived. Similarly, it might be reasonable to say that Japanese martial arts derived its ancestry from Chinese martial arts, in particular through the same route as had the Chinese martial arts derived its ancestry from India; the shaolin monks.

Kung Fu as you know it, was taught to the chinese monks by an indian monk so as to facilitate their rigorous training and meditation.
That's a common claim among many martial artists, but I have yet to see any evidence of Damo actually teaching the Shaolin monks. I have seen evidence against it.

Either way, Shaolin was not the source of all Chinese martial arts. The Chinese had their own methods of fighting (such as shuai chiao) long before the "Shaolin" styles were formed.

People with no training can fight, so how much imagination does it take to consider the possibility that civilizations can find out how to fight on their own and develop their own methods?

I'm not saying that styles haven't influenced eachother, but martial arts did not spring from any one source.

If that myth is true (that Damo/Boddidharma brought martial arts from India to China and then it spread to Korea and Japan), then what about Greek martial arts (wrestling, boxing, and pankration)? Were those the predecessors of Indian martial arts?
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Old 04-13-2007, 12:01 PM   #56
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Chinese Martial Arts and Aikido

Quote:
Mona Bassil wrote: View Post
Aikido is very Taoist-oriented, especially when it comes to the principle of non-resistance.
The Tao is symbolically expressed as .

Nature, the eventual object and inpiration of O'Sensei's teachings, does not recognize cultural or political borders; nor does it express human territorial distinctions. Aikido is Nature; the practice of

Wherever nature runs abundant you will find the source.
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Old 04-13-2007, 12:20 PM   #57
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Re: Chinese Martial Arts and Aikido

I'd suggest that Chis Gee's (the thread starter) original comments are not quite accurate when he states that Daito-ryu was "not the only" art that contributed to Aikido, and then goes on to point out the internal Chinese arts of Xingyi and Bagua as other contributers.

Ueshiba got his internal skills only from Daito-ryu, as subsequent discussions on Aikido history have pointed out. However, those discussions also stated that it is very likely that DR and other Japanese arts with internal skills in turn received those internal aspects from Chinese sources that also provided the internal skills that became part of Xingyi and Bagua. In other words, all of these arts got their internal components from an earlier Chinese source. But Xingyi and Bagua themselves as discrete styles/systems did not in themselves contribute directly to Aikido.

Sorry, for the aside, Jennifer, but you did dredge up this old thread.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 04-13-2007 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:53 PM   #58
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Re: Chinese Martial Arts and Aikido

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Wherever nature runs abundant you will find the source.
Then we are also the source.
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:57 PM   #59
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Re: Chinese Martial Arts and Aikido

Quote:
Dan Botari wrote: View Post
Then we are also the source.
Of course we are!
You don't see dogs practicing aikido do you?
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Old 04-14-2007, 01:51 AM   #60
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Re: Chinese Martial Arts and Aikido

These similar threads keep poppoing up and I think I wrote something likeswise before, but here goes.

In 1990 I met Mr. So in Tokyo - he taught Taichi, Ba-gwa, and Hsing-I. It was at the time I was leaving so I could not really join. I trained only once and went back to watch several more times. What he did had me mesmerised. Hsing-I was pure irimi, Ba-gwa was pure tenkan, and when he put it together with a man in front of him it was instant Jujutsu. His strikes, trips, reaps, and throws were superb but not choreographed at all, totally spontaneous. He arrived at the destination of 'Jujutsu' without its form. He practised 'movement' in separate blocks and his 'essence of change' allowed him to piece the bits together to make superb technique in the moment. What I saw has changed the way I do things ever since, though I know I could never reach what that man had. Now, I break everything down and practise the parts - reverse engineering if you like, and I find it works very well for me.

As for it influencing Aikido, I doubt it. The similarity is remarkable, perhaps, but Ueshiba went to China after extensive training. He might have picked up a few things but it would not have altered what he did too much. If it had, others would have noticed and it would be documented in some way. His way of doing things is totally Japanese, in my opinion.

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Old 08-17-2009, 09:26 PM   #61
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Morihei Ueshiba-Where Did He Get His Power?

Here is an interesting excerpt (http://books.google.com/books?id=8cU...age&q=&f=false) from a book by Bruce Frantzis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Frantzis)

Does anyone know the author.

What do you think about his idea that the physical techniques of Aikido are Daito-Ryu but the ability to use ki (aiki ?)is from ba gua?

David
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:54 PM   #62
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba-Where Did He Get His Power?

Great balls of ki David. Do you realize what this thread will become?
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:24 PM   #63
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba-Where Did He Get His Power?

Pure speculation on the part of BK Frantzis. Others have commented on the topic:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2098
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6259
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:41 PM   #64
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Re: Chinese Martial Arts and Aikido

Thanks for the links Ricky.

The threads seem to talk more about technique which Bruce Frantzis states they came from DR.

What about what Mr. Frantizis indicates about ki coming from ba qua. With what O'Sensei learned about ki in his DR training, would he need much training to learn the way chi is trained in ba gua?

David
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:50 AM   #65
Larry Feldman
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Re: Chinese Martial Arts and Aikido

I tend to go with the 'no historical evidence' to support the Chinese arts influenced Ueshiba.

The body is only built one way, good systems with similar philosophies will find similar ways to attack the vulnerabilities.

If you have interest in the similarities, which there are many - go study with someone who has trained in both. My current teacher has 30+ years of Aikido, and a similar amount of time in the Chinese arts including Tai Chi, Chinese Boxing, and some others. He regularly points out the similarities, when in town for a seminar. I find it interesting and helpful in understanding Aikido, or at least the Chinese view of what we are trying to do.

He threatened to author some books on the subject, before the books mentioned were published - but he prefers practice...
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:23 PM   #66
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Re: Chinese Martial Arts and Aikido

So we can safely say that O'Sensei's Aikido was mainly from what his sensei taught him and that his development was aided by his connection with a religion where he found deeper meaning to his training. As he grew older he developed his ideas and ability from his training in his Aikido and his study of his religious beliefs.

Would this be a fair assessment?

David
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:52 PM   #67
David Orange
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Re: Chinese Martial Arts and Aikido

Quote:
Chris Gee wrote: View Post
O'Sensei went to China on 2 major occations once as a solider and also as a body guard. During this time he pitted himself against many chinese martial artists. There are no records of these duals.
How do you know he fought anyone if there are no records of those duels?

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-18-2009, 04:19 PM   #68
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Re: Chinese Martial Arts and Aikido

Ueshiba's life was pretty well documented and his whereabuts and coming and goings have been checked and cross checked.

This is a repeat

Aikiweb Interview with Stan Pranin

Quote:
Quote:
AW: O-sensei also reportedly studied a lot of other koryu arts outside of Daito-ryu.
SP: I would say that that's not true.
If you look at it historically, he went up to Tokyo in 1901 and spent about a year there. During this stay in Tokyo when he was training to become a merchant, he did a little bit of Tenjin Shinryo-ryu jujutsu. It was probably a "machi" dojo, in other words a small dojo in the Asakusa area of Tokyo. He would go there at night, but it was probably about three or four months total since he got very ill with beriberi and had to leave Tokyo and return to Tanabe. He was doing it while working very hard during the day and it was a very brief period of only a few months. It would be difficult to imagine that that had a strong, technical influence.
By the same token when he was in the army, he also began studying Yagyu-ryu jujutsu. There are some questions about what the actual name of the art was. O-sensei referred to it as Yagyu-ryu jujutsu, while [Kisshomaru Ueshiba] Doshu did some research and said it was Goto-ha Yagyu Shingan-ryu or similar name.
He was in the army at the time and also was sent to Manchuria for a part of the time. It was hard for me to imagine him going regularly while being in the army, so I don't know if his training was on the weekends or what. He apparently was enthusiastic about his training but there just weren't the circumstances to allow a detailed study.
He did, however, continue to study a little bit of Yagyu-ryu after he got out of the army, but he was in Tanabe which was a couple of hundred miles away and he had to go up by ferry! Again, maybe he went up three, four, or a half a dozen times, but it wasn't the sort of thing of an intensive study with someone year after year.
Now, he did have a makimono (scroll) as well -- however, it bears no seal. One can only speculate what that meant. Sometimes what happens is that a person would be told to prepare a makimono or have someone prepare it and, for whatever circumstance or reason, the teacher never gets around to signing it. Therefore, the scroll cannot be considered official.
So, it would appear that he did study this Yagyu-ryu form more than the Tenjin Shinryo-ryu jujutsu, but probably at the most he did a year or two.
The other art that he studied, but again not in very much depth, would have been judo. The first description of the teacher who was sent down from the Kodokan to Tanabe by O-sensei's father to teach Morihei and various relatives and friends gave the impression that this judo teacher was somewhat of an expert. It turns out he was 17 years old. I met his wife back in the 1980s and she told me this directly. He could have been a shodan, maximum. Also, O-sensei was involved with other things in this transition phase of his life trying to figure out what he was going to be doing as a career. One of the reasons, according to Doshu, that this judo person was brought in was to help him focus and channel his energies. But O-sensei ended up going to Hokkaido.
So, you have
a. this very brief stint in Tenjin Shinryo Ryu,
b. some training in Yagyu Ryu jujutsu while in the army,
c. a smattering of judo,
d. (20+years) In Daito-ryu.
That's it. The impression that he studied many different arts other than Daito-ryu and mastered them is completely false.
Stan was pretty clear
I always look at these debates and ask a simple question.
Q: Had he studied all these arts, why was it, on that auspicious day:
1. when he was ready to hang a shingle
2. when it came time to make his mark
3. Why did he open the door and choose to teach and hand out scrolls in......
Daito ryu?
And that for approx. 16 years. You know all those Pre-war deshi supposedly doing Aikido up to 1938? They were all ranked in Daito ryu by the old man himself. Why? Because it was all he really knew.

And when he completed further research later on and arrived at the end of all things in his life the old man never waivered, and never changed from his first roots in aiki. He still only referred to his power as Aiki.
Why?
Ueshiba was an aiki man through and through. He said it himself. "Takeda opened my eyes to true budo."And he, like all of Takeda's men before and after him- was still an Aiki-man through and through at the end of their careers.
As a group; all five of them were living legends.
Cheers
Dan
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