Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-09-2007, 08:52 AM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

I think skill is the part of the endstate and can be reached by many methodologies.

It might be that much of the confusion surrounding this topic deals with not making the distinction between methodology and skill.

Good discussion!

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 08:58 AM   #27
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
You do see him moving the hand through a kokyu plane, which I never caught before.
I have no idea what you mean, Kevin. That sounded like techno-babble, to my ears. I would suggest once again that we do not talk about the same things, but I don't want to get into an involved discussion anymore about how to do these things.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 09:14 AM   #28
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Whatever....I know kokyu when I see it and feel it and it looked like kokyu to me. Sorry I didn't pass your "get it test". I am trying really hard to become a member of your club but apparently I am not possible of passing the muster.

Best way to not get involved is to simply not respond. Just when I think you are a reasonable guy that has good intentions of sharing information, you turn around and bite. Don't get it, but that seems to be par for the course between us for whatever reason.

I have no problem disagreeing, but please the attitude and "superior" attitude is what is disturbing to me.

Probably right. Maybe we need to steer clear of each other for a while.

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 09:25 AM   #29
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Whatever....I know kokyu when I see it and feel it and it looked like kokyu to me. Sorry I didn't pass your "get it test". I am trying really hard to become a member of your club but apparently I am not possible of passing the muster.

Best way to not get involved is to simply not respond. Just when I think you are a reasonable guy that has good intentions of sharing information, you turn around and bite. Don't get it, but that seems to be par for the course between us for whatever reason.

I have no problem disagreeing, but please the attitude and "superior" attitude is what is disturbing to me.

Probably right. Maybe we need to steer clear of each other for a while.
Don't miss the point, Kevin. Over and over again, the comment has been made that the things you're saying show that you don't understand. Repeatedly, you come back with something saying that you MUST understand... after all, you're a "teacher". I'm not "superior" (but thanks for the personal slam), I simply think it needs to be pointed out each time what is happening:

(1.) You infer you already know these things, thus protecting your status as a "teacher".

(2.) I say you don't know these things and I couldn't care less if you claim to know them... you need to get out and see them, just like other teachers on this forum have done and who are now getting ahead of the game. My worry is about students being assured by some "teacher" that they already know everything. I've been a victim of that myself. If it's "superior" to point that out each time, then I'm guilty.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 09:40 AM   #30
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

1. I have never said I understood anything about what you are doing.

2. I do understand a little about martial arts and efficient use of my body as it relates to what is generally what falls into the realm of empty handed martial arts. These things involve posture, balance, correct use of your mind, body, and spirit. I don't think I have said anything contrary to that.

3. I have never said that what you are saying is incorrect. Only asked questions concerning the application and endstates and definitions concerning martial effectiveness/efficiency.

It seems we both are on the same plane concerning being worrried about a teacher saying that they know everything, or things that they know very little about. I have pointed this out where I thought it was appropriate when people discuss martial efficiency or MMA.

So where is it that we have an issue between us?

Is it not possible for me to understand ANYTHING martially?

Apparently these days I need some sort of "Good Housekeeping" seal of approval to say anything at all concerning martial subjects.

I believe I have asked more questions here than I have posted statements.

I believe when I have had opinions, I have backed them up with facts from my own experiences and have stated that my opinions were based on my own experiences. I have never said that they were correct necessarily, nor have I asked anyone to prove anything.

So why is it that I apparently irritate you so much?

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 09:49 AM   #31
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,850
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Hi folks,

Can we please stay away from ad hominem posts?

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 09:53 AM   #32
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Sorry Jun. I will try and not let it happen again. It was not my original intent.

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 09:57 AM   #33
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
1. I have never said I understood anything about what you are doing.
Sure... you've said you teach ki and kokyu to your students. That raises a problem because the subject we're talking about (Ushiro, Tohei, Dan, Rob, Abe Sensei, me, and many others) is called "ki" and "kokyu". That presents a big problem because you don't understand what we're saying yet you claim in your posts that you teach it. Do you see the problem from that perspective?
Quote:
Is it not possible for me to understand ANYTHING martially?
Rule #1: Do NOT leave any openings for Mike Sigman to make smart-ass one-liners: he cannot resist them.

Let's take one tiny example and look at it, even though the one example doesn't cover the whole topic of the problem. Let's say nikkyo.

I can go to various dojo's and be shown "nikkyo" and as a "joint lock" it is fine and it "works martially". Some people will immediately jump into the discussion with "timing" and "from your center" and "stand in this angle to apply it" and "how to use it in a bar fight or combat with the enemy" and so on. All of that is fine and is "martial" and different people have different takes on it. AND it works! So therefore, they all "know nikkyo". I admit they can do nikkyo, but it's not really a version (by most people) that O-Sensei or any other skilled Asian martial artist is going to concur with as being correct if jin is not being used to do it. And there are degrees of jin. You don't have any really impressive jin power until your "middle" is extremely powerful. Your middle isn't going to be extremely powerful and connected out to your arms and legs until your "ki" is developed with breath, intent, stretches, and etc.

If you knew ki and kokyu skills, you'd have already known this and used it as a caveat, part of an explanation, etc. No one is "doing ki and kokyu skills but doesn't know they're doing them" or "didn't recognize the descriptions".

Can you "do things martially"? I have no doubt. I'll bet you're a great fighter. So was Ueshiba. But he's dead, so he can't kick butt anymore. His art is what we're talking about, though.

Regards,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 11:16 AM   #34
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Sure at a certain level of understanding I teach the concept of kokyu. It is important. Do I have room for deeper understanding? Can I demonstrate it adequately in an aikido context, not really...that is why I study aikido with people I consider more competent in this area other than myself. It is why I would consider being open to studying with the you Rob, or someone like Dan when I have the opportunity.

How much time do I spend on teaching kokyu? very little to be honest..very little as it is not the core of my practice to work on MMA type stuff. Having been exposed to it through Saotome Sensei, Ikeda sensei, and many of his senior students, I appreciate it enough to at least spend some time on it.

What is wrong with that? Given that I work in an alive/non-compliant environment pretty much exclusively it doesn't pose too much of an issue because either something works or it doesn't in this methodology, and aliveness keeps things honest and gives me an avenue to explore things I am attempting to understand.

Would I go to Jimmy Sorrentino's dojo and teach kokyu or proceed to show my fellow students anything concerning kokyu..not at all, because that is a different environment and I have much to learn in this context as there are people that are much better at these things there than I.

Nikkyo, interesting you bring that up. In my MMA context I have pretty much dismissed it as being useful. Why is that? It does not work for me. Maybe this in and of itself demonstrates my inability to understand Jin. Good point. This should demonstrate to you the level of honesty and scenarity of have concerning this. At least I am not deluded (as I once was) in thinking that what I was doing in my aikido practice would actually work for me.

This does not imply that nikkyo is worthless, only my own limitations possibly to understanding it.

So I would agree there are levels of Jin or Kokyu, and given the enviornment that I currently work in, it is not an issue as I have very measureable criteria to determine if what I am doing works or does not work. It allows me to stay honest with myself and the others I work with.

Given the fact that I am turning 42 and work with guys that are in top shape and I can move most of them around fairlly effortlessly with very little actually speed and demonstrate a fair amount of "dead/grounded weight"...must count for something. Most of the guys I train with say they feel like they are trying to move a refrigerator when they are working with me, what does that mean? Don't care if you answer for me it is unimportant what you think about me or my skills. I am here to learn what I can learn and contribute what I can contribute, which is all i can do based on my own personal experiences.

Not saying it is or is not what you are doing. If you say it is not what you are doing because I don't describe things the way that would demonstrate that what I discuss is Jin..I accept that as it is more than just you that is saying it...and I will accept that until I feel it for myself. Got it.

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 11:45 AM   #35
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Sure at a certain level of understanding I teach the concept of kokyu.
Well, without going any further than that, my comment was justified and a viable point, wouldn't you agree?

There were a group of people on the old Neijia List who left in a huff to form their own list because they were insulted at the idea that anyone would accuse them of teaching and being senior students and not understanding "peng jin" (the core jin of Taiji, but the meaning is more like "exended ki"). It was pretty funny because their outraged statements still showed that they just didn't understand what they were teaching. To cover their tracks, some of them came up wih the idea that they were perfectly qualified to be teaching Tai Chi at a "Kindergarten Level". I.e., they were qualified to teach the basics and didn't claim to teach advanced stuff. One of them started using the phrase "Caveat Emptor" to show that it wasn't his fault if he was teaching things wrongly.

But here's the real problem. The basics of the arts that use so-called "internal" skills are the internal skills themselves. The techniques in so-called "internal" arts are built around that internal form of strength. So, for instance, a person cannot really teach a "kokyu throw" if he can't exhibit and teach basic kokyu power. There's a disconnect that is logically inescapable with the idea of teaching "basic level" kokyu, ki, jin, fajin, or whatever, if the basics are not there. It's like saying, "OK, even though I don't know the full alphabet myself, I can at least teach basic essay writing". It doesn't compute.

Now don't get me wrong, Kevin.... this applies to all of us in many arts and I've been guilty of it, too... I'm not singling you out. The major point I've been making is more that people need to go back and get this basic, very important stuff, and then reconfigure around it.

And of course, based on long experience, I expect resistance from people who are "teachers".... they will naturally resist the idea that there is some basic topic about which they know little or nothing. So I prepped the discussions for that fight ("insultingly" as some wounded teachers have put it) a long time ago. Without being "insulting" and instead being "nice and diplomatic", what would happen is that the existing hierarchy would simply roll over and crush any discussions containing the idea there was anything they were lacking. I.e., there's an unavoidable conflict as this fairly critical time... and my option is simply to go straight into it, pretending that there are a few people who, like I was, really want to get ahead but who are trapped by the existing hierarchies and protocols.

By not "respecting" the position and protocols in place, I/we are naturally going to be construed as "rude" by some people. But that's unavoidable. Some people will see the point and some won't. C'est la vie. The question is not about personalities or rudeness, but "is there something there to make this circumvention of protocol" justifiable? I'm sure of it. Ikeda Sensei and Ushiro Sensei are sure of it, too. So are the many others who have seen it. It's what O-Sensei referred to in his douka.

Best.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 01:03 PM   #36
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

The difference between what I do and probably what a tai chi school does is that I train in primarily these days in an environment of aliveness, non-compliance, or whatever you want to call it....not within the confines of "DO" per se. So in the respect, I don't need to be too concerned about if what I am teaching is correct, I have immediate feedback from the people I am working to tell me that...not a theorectical or solely principle based practice.

Albeit you do work with people of diffrerent skill levels and you still need to be cognizant that people will feed you inappropriate responses even in that environment..one of the guys I train with does this alot.

This environment, MMA, allows us to explore freely what works and does not work for us...our main concern is effectiveness so much different in this environment...you can freely explore what you know about kokyu, nikkyo or what not...if it works great, if not, then you know that you either need to ditch it, or find someone that can show you where you are wrong.

It is not as critical as say in an aikido dojo where it is pretty much necessary to have proper guidance or instruction in these things as if you don't you are essentially wasting your time or being filled full of crap that you really don't know works.

Two schools or methodolgies of thought.

I am not confined by the hiearchies or societial pressure of an aikido organization to were I keep my mouth shut and remain "compliant" either willfully or out of shear ignorance because I have only been exposed to a limited spectrum within the martial community....so I completely can appreciate your perspective to a degree.

That said, I have respect for those within these organizations, on of which I have been affiliated with, ASU, of which one of our shihan you apparently hold in regard in some capacity. I do feel it is possible to be respectful, train with them, and work without disrupting the flow, learn and do my own thing outside of this organization. However, rude is rude, arrogance is arrogance, and I know it when I see it...just like kokyu!

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 01:14 PM   #37
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
However, rude is rude, arrogance is arrogance, and I know it when I see it...just like kokyu!
I don't know if you saw something I posted about rudeness, respect, etc., Kevin, but let me hit the highlights real quick.

Let's say you go into an MMA school, one that uses the same name and logo as your own school which you value highly because it's a famous and hard-earned name. And in that school you find 4 or 5 teachers who don't even know the basics of the guard, take-downs, etc., but who are doing their own versions of it. These guys all have "belts" and have "been teaching" for 15-20 years. At a common martial arts forum meeting, you run into them and you try to be friendly and mention a couple of basic things that you think they might find interesting. In fact those same basic things are mentioned over and over in the manuals, but they never seem to have encountered them and many think they are "fantasy" and of "no help". They look at each other and say "We never heard of that.... what are you, a trouble-maker?" They tell you that they don't like your style of talking. At that point, are you being rude/arrogant or are they being rude/arrogant?

Of course, in the long run it doesn't matter, because if you're right there's no way these guys can go on forever before their bubble gets popped, since it's a small world. Maybe it's better to wait and see. Imagine if you're right and what's going to happen to the value of the books several of these guys wrote, further on down the line. See the ramifications? It's like an enthralling soap-opera, ain't it?

Regards,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 02:24 PM   #38
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

In my MMA experiences this has not happened too much. (MMA as defined as predominately grappling based jiujitsu). Either you dominate, control, or demonstrate you effectiveness, or you don't. They can deny it all they want, but it becomes quite clear very fast what someone can do or cannot do.

What I like about that environment is the fact that you pretty much lay your cards on the table everytime you train. If you could do the things that you do internally and could walk in and not only demonstrate the methodology, but also can actually do it, then you have an audience that is all ears! If you cannot, then you pretty much get the cold shoulder and for good reason.

To bring this back on topic. I think you find this pretty much with any sport or activity in which their is definitive criteria upon which to measure success. If you could show Tiger Woods how to improve his golf through the use of Jin, you'd have a very well paying consulting job.

However, if you have these tools, and cannot effectively demonstrate how they can be used for a particular purpose, then people might say, hey that is a pretty neat trick, and be impressed and then move on, failing to see the utility of it.

Aikido, I think, is different in that it primarily is not concerned with martial effectiveness, but in holisitc self improvement, which in turn hopefully can instill harmony and peace philosophically to the entire world. How does Jin play into that, and what is the realitive importance? No two people will ever agree. I'd submit that it is not so critical to perfect it, maybe even awareness of it is all that is needed, however, Obsession of possessing these internal abilities solely for the perfection of them, without regard for the other aspects that must be kept in balance and moderation...IMO is missing the point all together...missing the message of aikido and the intent of what it is designed to do.

Which is why, IMO, when we discuss MMA, internal skills, and aikido in the same breath in many cases, we are talking apples, pears, and oranges.

As far as the whole book thing. It is interesting that you bring it up. I have gone through many of my books that I held out high hope for over the years, many of them so called "internal books", and today, I find them to be pretty much garbage and not much us other than stating obvious facts, but not giving us much in the way of "how to".

I think the real revolution in your skills will be when there are people that have them that can adequately demonstrate how to apply them to various sports and practices and the participants define it as unique, different, and nothing that they have ever seen and felt before. I am talking not the average Joe in which anything that is remotely skillful is new and exciting, but highly skilled, world class athletes. It seems some head way might have been made in some aikido circles if what you say about Ikeda and Ushiro is true. That is a good thing I think, something I am looking forward to.

If what you are doing is true and geniune, I agree, eventually it will reach those that are denial and are hiding behind barriers and constructs of a fabricated environment of a dojo or organization.

The cool thing about how I practice is that on any given day, there might be a guy that shows up that is much better than me. That guy is the one that teaches...not me. It always seems silly to me to pretend to be the teacher when there is someone that is better...what a waste of time!

Cheers.

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2007, 04:50 AM   #39
Ecosamurai
 
Ecosamurai's Avatar
Dojo: Takagashira Dojo
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 519
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Nikkyo, interesting you bring that up. In my MMA context I have pretty much dismissed it as being useful. Why is that? It does not work for me. Maybe this in and of itself demonstrates my inability to understand Jin. Good point. This should demonstrate to you the level of honesty and scenarity of have concerning this. At least I am not deluded (as I once was) in thinking that what I was doing in my aikido practice would actually work for me.

This does not imply that nikkyo is worthless, only my own limitations possibly to understanding it
This is kinda what I was talking about when I referred to MMA 'cherry-picking', I've said it before but I'll repeat it. An MMA guy loudly announced to me that nikyo didn't work and nearly screamed when I applied it to his wrist. What he meant to say was 'nikyo doesn't work for me' instead he declared 'nikyo doesn't work'. Not saying that's what you did but I usually view it as the downside of the MMA combined with competition approach. There are probably plenty of things that work just fine but don't make it into MMA's common repetoire or UFC toolkit. I suspect this happens more often than not because the common MMA attitude is that if it can't be made to work with minimal training and I can't apply it in the ring with minimal training it 'doesn't work'. I think it may turn out that as UFC &c continue to get older more and more things that have been thrown out as being 'ineffective' will begin to creep into it as it becomes more sophisticated and the skill level of competitiors increases.

It wasn't so long ago that I remember all 'internal' skills or 'soft arts' as they were often called (using the hard/soft dichotomy) were dismissed as rubbish and 'ineffective' People who dismissed them this way were often stunned when they came accross someone who was really good at the internal stuff (I knew a really impressive muay thai fighter who told me he was intimidated by my aikido teacher for example. Even though my teacher didn't do anything that would be viewed as intimidating, it was simply his presence).

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2007, 05:28 AM   #40
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Actually I think the reverse is happening, more things are making it into MMA.

Yes, you will always develop your "game" with a limited number of "high percentage" things that work for you. You can train someone actually realitively quickly to be functional I believe....more so than from an "internal", DO, or strictly "budo" practice.

Yes there are some that will end their practice and training at that point...a few things that work.

What tends to happen though is that everyone learns those things, you achieve an efficient market of things that work, then someone else comes along with a new angle or new twist or methods and figures out how to exploit it.

The upside to MMA type training, or better yet, training with aliveness is that you actually can make real mistakes, not simulated ones, and then struggle through and figure out what works and doesn't..find your weaknesses honestly and work through them.

Do I still do niikyo, yes I do, I have a much better understanding I think today of the importance of nikkyo than I did three or four years ago.

All the big names in budo all had aliveness backgrounds prior to studying the more esoteric stuff we tend to study today. They became authorities in their area because they did stuff with aliveness.

This is just my own opinion, but I have never figured out how you can learn this stuff honestly without finding out that nikkyo does not really work most of the time in reality. Why do it over and over again in a nice, clean enviornment for years...only to discover that you really don't know what nikkyo is, or how to apply it?

All the great sages, philosophers, mentors, saints and those that have been deitized have all sort of said, "look, I figured it out so you don't have to". ....At least that is how we interpret what they say today.

I think what they really meant to say is "here is the path, follow me!' so you don't have to get lost...I know a way there!".

Even Buddha said "don't take what I say or do at face value, figure it out for yourself".

Anyway, I see MMA or aliveness training as a way back to the roots of what was lost in training in many respects. A rebirth of forgotten things...it is putting the life back into the kata and things that are dead.

I did nikkyo for years thinking that it had some life in it. I found out that my nikkyo is essentially dead. So how do I now put the life back into it?

The limits you see in MMA or aliveness I think is reality. We have to learn to crawl, then walk, then run before we can start climbing mountains. In many respects I think Budo practice leaps bounds above thngs and starts training people how to climb mountains, sort of like reading a book on technical mountain climbing, and then saying I can concieve of how this is works, but I would probably kill myself if I climbed Everest!

Sure there are many that are involved in it for only the sport that will never be concerned with Nikkyo, Jin, or anything associated with it. However, that does not mean it MMA or aliveness cannot, will not, or does not incorporate elements of these concepts, now or in the future....it is only presenting that which works and is honest, IMO.

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2007, 05:39 AM   #41
Ecosamurai
 
Ecosamurai's Avatar
Dojo: Takagashira Dojo
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 519
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Actually I think the reverse is happening, more things are making it into MMA.
Which is exactly what I said if you read what I wrote

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2007, 05:45 AM   #42
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Yes, I misread what you were saying, sorry, I see that now. Good to see we agree! Thanks!

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2007, 06:17 AM   #43
Ecosamurai
 
Ecosamurai's Avatar
Dojo: Takagashira Dojo
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 519
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Yes, I misread what you were saying, sorry, I see that now. Good to see we agree! Thanks!
Lol, no bother

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2007, 07:58 AM   #44
Ecosamurai
 
Ecosamurai's Avatar
Dojo: Takagashira Dojo
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 519
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
They look at each other and say "We never heard of that.... what are you, a trouble-maker?" They tell you that they don't like your style of talking. At that point, are you being rude/arrogant or are they being rude/arrogant?
I'd say it is entirely possible that they are being mis-informed and/or defensive and you are being self-righteous. Of the two of those I'm not entirely sure which one I would rather be all things considered. It's not a pretty situation to be in.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2007, 08:29 AM   #45
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I'd say it is entirely possible that they are being mis-informed and/or defensive and you are being self-righteous. Of the two of those I'm not entirely sure which one I would rather be all things considered. It's not a pretty situation to be in.
OK, so if someone knows what he's supposed to know (in the example I used of Kevin meeting a MMA group), and the "teachers" don't know what they're supposed to know, Kevin is "self-righteous" if he tries to offer something? I see.

But add this to the equation.... Kevin is not taking money/loyalty from students, but these "teachers" are. I.e., if I were a student and my teacher blew off anyone who tried to mention something that was critical to MY ultimate learning, I'd be concerned. As a student, I would take great comfort in a situation like this where I could see the my teacher opted to do what was best for me, the student. That's a real teacher.

In fact.... that's exactly what Ikeda Sensei did for his students.

What I think this "rude", "arrogant", "self-righteous" stuff means is that a number of self-styled teachers want "respect" because they're teachers, but they want if from people who can see clearly that there is something basic missing from the teachers knowledge. "Be helpful silently and respect me so that I don't lose face". Is that what you think should be done? It leads to an interesting discussion.

I've already said that if it were me and I had reasonable evidence that I was missing something, I'd just arrange to go see, go get it, etc.. I wouldn't get into these "respect me" discussions. But then, that's my perspective.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2007, 08:40 AM   #46
Ecosamurai
 
Ecosamurai's Avatar
Dojo: Takagashira Dojo
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 519
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Is that what you think should be done? It leads to an interesting discussion.
It does lead to an interesting discussion. No I don't think that's what should be done, but politeness is still politeness even if you leave out the 'respect me so I don't lose face' thing. Maybe that's just my native Englishness coming out against your American-ness, who knows? Either way I probably agree with you more than disagree.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2007, 09:05 AM   #47
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
It does lead to an interesting discussion. No I don't think that's what should be done, but politeness is still politeness even if you leave out the 'respect me so I don't lose face' thing. Maybe that's just my native Englishness coming out against your American-ness, who knows? Either way I probably agree with you more than disagree.

Mike
I'm still waiting for something substantive in terms of a "how to". Your Englishness is kewl and I've been interested to hear about your deeds and your teachers and the flaws of other peoples' personalities, but while I see a lot of nods and "we do that, too", I don't see anything else (well, unless you count repeating back Tohei's easily found vaguenesses).

If you know these things, you can explain them in common terms (even if you opt out of doing mathematical analyses). I gave a good solid and fairly complete answer to you yesterday on keeping the undeside heavy. Now, how about explaining the physical how-to's of O-Sensei bouncing someone back who is pushing on his chest. The answer should be able to tell us a lot about what you do.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2007, 09:39 AM   #48
Ecosamurai
 
Ecosamurai's Avatar
Dojo: Takagashira Dojo
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 519
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm still waiting for something substantive in terms of a "how to". Your Englishness is kewl and I've been interested to hear about your deeds and your teachers and the flaws of other peoples' personalities, but while I see a lot of nods and "we do that, too", I don't see anything else (well, unless you count repeating back Tohei's easily found vaguenesses).
That's a rather interesting way of putting things. Makes me sound like a doer of mighty deeds, lol. Nothing further from the truth really. My teacher is another matter entirely, he can speak for himself and doesn't need my help. As far as flaws in personalities goes, we all have them and if I've pointed any out you've done so at least as much if not more so I think. As to the nods and the we do that too stuff. Well a lot of what you describe we do actually do, so what am I supposed to say? No, we do it differently? Why would I do that?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If you know these things, you can explain them in common terms (even if you opt out of doing mathematical analyses). I gave a good solid and fairly complete answer to you yesterday on keeping the undeside heavy. Now, how about explaining the physical how-to's of O-Sensei bouncing someone back who is pushing on his chest. The answer should be able to tell us a lot about what you do.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
The answer will, but it's a tough question and I'd need to think of a good way to describe and explain it in a useful manner. Assuming I even have a good answer, and to be honest I'm not entirely sure I do at this point in time. Unfortunately, my future wife has booked me for the evening and I'm out of time here at work, so you'll have to wait until tomorrow. Whereupon I'll put it in the how-to thread. Sound ok to you?

Mike

PS - Incidentally, Tohei's vagueness probably isn't all that vague. The stuff in his books is fairly basic, but certainly no more vague than anything you or I have written on the internet IMO.

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2007, 05:11 AM   #49
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
In a post a month or two ago, Mike Sigman made a really sensible postulation about the African water carriers and such load bearers, noting that a jin path to the ground was the most likely reason for their amazing abilities. It's not magic, and it's not even "rocket science."
Yet saying 'jin path' is not science. It is simply using a placeholder for what someone wants us to believe is science.

As far as non-Africans not being able to match their feats. That makes good sense, considering those particular Africans have done that their whole life, probably from a very young age, and they do it for a living. You know, gongfu, skill over time?

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2007, 11:16 AM   #50
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If you know these things, you can explain them in common terms (even if you opt out of doing mathematical analyses). I gave a good solid and fairly complete answer to you yesterday on keeping the undeside heavy. Now, how about explaining the physical how-to's of O-Sensei bouncing someone back who is pushing on his chest.
The book The Secrets of Judo has some great pages on just how unstable the human body is, and they give calculations for the approximate forces required to off-balance someone in an upright posture and someone in a more deep posture. These forces are much smaller than one might expect.

If it is the video clip I am thinking of, the above, coupled with a push, a non-live environment (a public demo), the master's own students, and an aging teacher, I'm not really sure what there is to explain??

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center? ChrisMoses Training 130 03-17-2007 03:21 PM
Why are you here on this forum? Dennis Hooker Announcements & Feedback 129 03-15-2007 01:07 PM
Practical internal training ? Mark Gibbons Training 113 12-13-2006 02:54 PM
Internal & External strength discussion statisticool Open Discussions 16 09-10-2006 10:03 AM
Too much upper body strength Bruce Baker Techniques 18 11-29-2002 01:11 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:49 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate