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Old 04-05-2007, 05:41 PM   #1
statisticool
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Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Do people who lecture on internal strength believe it is possible to add it to bowling, fencing, golf; really and other martial art or sport?

And if so, where are some examples?

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-05-2007, 11:29 PM   #2
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Yes, natural efficient use of the body is internal.

Examples are most athletic endeavors. The body only works best in a few ways, people tend to use those ways over and over again in all physical activities.

People who believe correct fluid body use is unique to a handful of martial arts are giving internal a bad name.

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Old 04-05-2007, 11:58 PM   #3
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Yes, natural efficient use of the body is internal.

Examples are most athletic endeavors. The body only works best in a few ways, people tend to use those ways over and over again in all physical activities.

People who believe correct fluid body use is unique to a handful of martial arts are giving internal a bad name.
No one's said that "correct fluid body use is unique to a handful of martial arts" dude If anything Mike's pointed out that this stuff has been "common knoweldge" and a core of most MAs.

There is precedent for this stuff being used in sports. But none of it came from within the sports world. Tohei trained some baseball player and as a consequence he broke Babe Ruth's whatever whatever record. (I'm too lazy to look up the details)
I know that Ushiro Kenji has been coaching some high school basketball kids in using some of the stuff he has.
Kono Yoshinori has been making waves over here as well as a sports consultant etc.

Anyways Jin/Kokyu skills aren't necessarily exclusive to MAs, but it's most widely seen in the upper echelons of some MAs.
As for the body only "works best in a few ways" etc etc, I still think you just haven't seen enough of what's out there
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Old 04-06-2007, 12:57 AM   #4
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
I still think you just haven't seen enough of what's out there
Back at cha.

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Old 04-07-2007, 07:43 AM   #5
statisticool
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Anyways Jin/Kokyu skills aren't necessarily exclusive to MAs, but it's most widely seen in the upper echelons of some MAs.
Apparently the upper echelon MAs that don't do any competitions, despite claims of being unable to be pushed over.


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-08-2007, 01:04 PM   #6
statisticool
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Chris seems correct here.

For example,

Check out this passage from a book, one I slightly altered (by adding in x's) to prevent one from figuring out immediately which martial art it comes from by looking at martial art specific terms:

Quote:
Then go into your action with all the physical resources at your disposal. All your energy must flow through arm and xxxxx hand xxxxx until it strikes the target powerfully. Then, relax immediately and completely-from right fingers to left foot. 'All the physical resources' does not mean brute force.
...
By power, I mean that concentrated nervous energy which all xxxxx martial artists xxxxx must know how to store, and how to release suddenly, unexpectedly, and completely whenever necessary.
It could be something straight out of a taijiquan book, talking about not using brute force, the power coming from the leg, through the hands, concentrated energy flow, etc. But it is from a fencing book (On Fencing), from the 1940s. Last time I checked, fencing is not considered "internal", and moreover, it is "Western", and it is often claimed by some internal gurus that Westerners have not understand internal stuff properly.

To me, things like this, of which there are many examples, utterly demolish some internal gurus' claims that what they are teaching is new or even specific to certain types of martial arts, movements, or training methods, and claims that things are missing, and so many people (except them of course) don't know about such things.

In fact, a fun experiment would be to publish in a taijiquan journal, for example, an article that uses such passages from arts considered non-internal, and no one would even notice, then reveal in a subsequent article the arts (and not necessarily all martial ones) that they are actually from.

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-08-2007, 02:51 PM   #7
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Justin,

While I think you and I might see things slightly different...I would tend to agree with your basic premise that there is no such thing as external and internal being separate and distinct....there is only correct movement...some more efficient than others..I am told differently by some that this is not so, but my experiences to date have said that this is the case.

I have read some books by internal guys, ones such as B.K. Frantzis, which admittidly, Mike Sigman says..."he doesn't get it".
B.K.F along with most of these guys follow the traditional line of thought of labeling things like karate, tae kwon do, judo as external, and things like aikido, ba gua, Hsing I, Tae Chi as internal.

I used to agree with this, but now a days see it more semantical in nature. I did Traditional Karate for years, clacking arms and shins against each other..looking for that one solid shite or reverse punch..then I found aikido..and said..."Wow!" ohhhhh...Karate...external. Aikido....internal!

I improved leaps and bounds in my karate once I understood a little about center and what not...very empowering!

I thought...wow..this is it! Internal is where it is at. Yea...all those external guys are wasting their time hitting the makawara and grunting etc.

I dismissed BJJ for years because I saw it as more of an extension of external.

These days though, I would say there are people that train properly/correctly...and those that don't.

Karate trained properly can be very internal, however I'd say most have earned the reputation as external. (external being defined as incorrectly trained).

These days I have also discovered that methodology is very important, more so than what labeled art you study.

Many would say that golf is not internal. Frankly I am confused by this, to me it is the same logic as saying golf is not a car! What does it mean.

The best golf players must learn to control a great deal of things mental, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. They practice meditation, as defined as visualization.

I was a successful pole vaulter back in my High School and college years, many years ago. I had a coach that was amazing. We did things that were considered to be cutting edge at the time. Visualization, breathing drills, rope work, balance and posture exercises...all kinds of things that I have also done in martial arts. When the pole hit the box it as the endstate of alot of things being in sync and in line.

Back to methodology though. I do believe that it is possible to isolate out and enhance aspects of your training. We can teach our bodies to do amazing things with the proper training and proper methodology. My wife is a yogini. When I actually have time, she has shown me how to relax anatgonistic muscle groups so I can actually touch my toes!

Personally, I think much of this conversation concerning internal versus external to be semantics, but I am told from many that have experienced things which are new to them, that I am not correct. So, until I study with them that put things in the pots this way...I can't say for sure.

I have another thought which I will carry on another post...Arm Wrestling....

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Old 04-08-2007, 03:00 PM   #8
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Arm Wrestling.

This may be an example of what people call external strength. I can see no way possible based on the isolation of things associated with it that you could make this into what many call internal. The arm is basically a lever with muscle attached to it. It is isolated from the hips and any a real ability to "ground" it other than the elbow on the table. It seems to me to be very difficult to carry strength from your hips, to your shoulder, to your forearm, to your wrist and hand.

The best arm wrestlers would have short arms (lever) with thick hands, with BIG muscles!

the endstate though is to within the rules and isolated parameters, to place the back of your opponents hand on the table.

A strong opponent would be unbendable or unmoveable. I might not be able to budge him from that position.

However, if I could get up and move my hips and achieve a better position, then I could move his hand and place it on the table with very little effort.

If he could do the same, then we'd have a different game all together and we'd call it "martial arts".

The guy doing it externally would be straining using his muscles more than the guy that was labled doing it internally. The internal guy would continue to move and gain an advantage using movement and position (internal skills). the guy that used the so-called internal skills would win!

I am curious as to how maybe Rob, Mike or Dan would interpret Arm Wrestling and venture to say how they would see someone that had a greater understanding of internal skills seeing them apply to a game/sport like arm wrestling. Can it apply, or is the parameters so constrained that it would preclude the use of internal skills as they define them?

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Old 04-08-2007, 03:06 PM   #9
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Kevin,
Years ago on the "Arsenio Hall Show," there was a young woman of average to light build and musculature, whose schtick was arm wrestling, and she claimed to be able to take on all comers. She arm wrestled (allegedly) random male audience members as well as Arsenio himself and defeated them in a split second.

Note the "split second." There wasn't any real vying or wrestling. She used one deft motion and took their arm and shoulder instantly to the table, without moving from her seat or making any overtly noticeable body movements.

Never heard anything of her since then. What do y'all think?
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:23 PM   #10
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Cady,

It is hard to tell as we don't know much about the situation in retrospect.

I just thought that arm wrestling might be a good example to try and explain internal skills to, (or not), to gain a deeper understand of the paradigm that these guys are coming from.

I also read your post on the other thread a few minutes ago. I just realized that I self bannished myself from that thread so I am going to refrain from posting on it.

However, while I am here typing.

I'd say what you wrote is what I have the most problem with, and I think it is more inline with this thread anyway.

That is...that somehow that this stuff has been a great secret that has been kept from us by a few eastern dudes and that it will some how revolutionize things.

I'd contend that performance and efficiency is known in all societies and in many sports. Guys like Tiger Woods get it. The best Pole Vaulters in the world get it.

On pole vaulters....as I was one back in the day when they said women could not do it, yes, I do think there are paradiqms that can be broken.

Yes, I do believe that there are methodologies for training that are innovative and it is possible that three are some eastern guys that have somethings that we can learn...maybe more efficiently and with a deeper understanding for many of us.

The things that Mike, Dan, and Rob have learned and seemingly codified may serve to assist YOU and maybe even ME in breaking down paradiqms and road blocks that we have been stumbling on for years, where aikido sensei's may have been unable to reach or tap.

I do think though, that we need to be careful about extrapolating our own shortcomings and experiences to the bigger picture and professing that because these things are so new to you, and they have helped where other people have failed...that the logic follows that it must mean that no one else understands these things and can do them.

I'd submit that the top athletes in their fields have perfected those aspects (internal) that make them successful.

Can they learn more. Apparently so, as we are constantly seeing records broken and things like females pole vaulting today...(most of that can be attributed to pole technology and the shift in paradigm concerning womens ability to develop core strength etc.).

So, i'd say that, yes, I agree that what Dan, Mike, and Rob teach can help us...I would not, at this point go so far as to say that it is any big secret, and that it will blatantly revolutionize martial arts or training...

Might it help you? Might it help me? Absolutely!

That is not to say that it would help Helio Gracie, or Rorian Gracie, or Michael Jordan...as they may already have developed methodologies that allow them to exploit the exact same things.

Who knows! I might be wrong!

Thanks for the conversation!

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Old 04-08-2007, 03:37 PM   #11
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Kevin,
About the lady arm wrestler -- The "winky" was meant to mean that I'm being tongue-in-cheek. It was a long time ago, and, truthfully, I have no idea what the lady's gimmick was, whether it was a trick of leverage and quickness, where she learned to arm wrestle that way, or whether she had a clever manager behind her promoting her special brand of "parlor trick." Obviously, she didn't create enough of a sensation to make herself famous (one shot on "Aresenio" isn't exactly a career maker!). Maybe people view these things as just amusing curiosities and nothing more. They may not even care what makes it "work" beyond casual "I wonder how she did that..." musing.

You can watch someone perform what seem to be amazing feats that might or might not require a degree of internal manipulation. But for the vast majority of people, they would not be able to tell that such things were being done. When it is being done, action is not readily visible, only its effects. That's one of the reasons why Justin's continued demand that internal skills be demonstrated publicly in tournaments or UFC in order to prove their existance and legitimacy, is without merit IMO.\

As for internal skills in other activities outside MAs, I have wondered how it would affect, say, American pro football, and hockey (our NHL could really use some help ). Now that would be some interesting stuff.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 04-08-2007 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:58 PM   #12
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Sorry didn't catch that tongue in cheek.

It is so hard to have these "feeling" conversations on the internet.

I am not so certain his demand for demonstration is unreasonable given much of the conversation that has taken place over the years on the internet and some of the claims and things that have been illuded to here.

However, I do understand and agree that the success of a particular methodology may not be so readily visible.

For instance, I am an upper blue belt in BJJ. How do I know this, one I was promoted by a black belt to blue belt, second, and more importantly I went to a few tournaments, one was a top ranked international tournament and competed successfully with those of the same rank. Lastly, I have a few students of other arts and people that seem to keep coming back to train with me.

Now, ask me how much BJJ experience I have in an actual BJJ dojo. You would be suprised at how little I have actually done compared to my rank level.

So, where did I learn all this? I will tell you it was through my years of aikido training of developing a sound base in principles coupled with about 18 months worth of training with various people in BJJ of and on.

My aikido training allowed me to surpass many of the people I was studying with, even though aikido does not translate directly to BJJ, and in a BJJ tournament you would see very little that would lead you to believe I EVER studied aikido.

So,. yes, I agree that methodology allows from transference of skills and lessons that apply to a wider audience.

The Methodology that Mike, Dan, and Rob are adopting and teaching could have merit and apply to a wider audience, say MMA folks for sure!

Just like my aikido methodology did.

However, just because I studied aikido, did not make me remotely successful in MMA or BJJ. Also, it would seem crazy to go and state that this mysterious art of aikido would revolutionize BJJ and has been kept a secret.

If I did that, the BJJ guys would come to an aikido dojo and call Bullcrap on aikido (like they do), and say it does not work and is a waste of time. Why? because they are judging it from a different paradigm. Same guys would ask me how I got promoted in BJJ so fast...I'd say, "because I studied aikido for so many years!"

Everyone is scratching their head "is it bullcrap of not?"

Answer is it depends on your situation and your position in a partiucular point and time.

If I would have spent the 12 years studying BJJ than Aikido, I'd be much better off in BJJ possibly than I am now...so while there is transferrence...it does not draw a correalation that one methodology is additive or better than the other.

Make sense??

So, I don't think there are any great secrets macroscopically, only secrets that maybe you or I don't know about.

An analogy would be the mid 1400s when the prevailing paradigm was that the earth was flat. There were people that thought it was round for sure.

When the paradigm began to shift to a round earth it wasn't a matter of secrets or anything...it was simply that more people saw things for what they really were.

Did the new paradigm or way of looking at things change anything in the world...not really, we still build buidlings the same way, we still do everything the way we did before, we just now have a different paradigm. No secrets, nothing empricially new added to the equation, simply a new perspective on the same old subject.

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Old 04-08-2007, 05:10 PM   #13
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Kevin,

Maybe not so much "secrets" as that these things just...don't...interested people beyond a casual curiosity. If it doesn't make money for someone, why bother?

Below is a story from the NY Times (the link no longer is active, so I had to cut/paste from a file I kept) describing some Belgian researchers who tried to hypothesize why Nepalese porters and women from certain African tribes are able to bear very heavy loads on their heads or across their foreheads without expending the amount of energy that one would logically assume you'd expend during such tasks.

They are totally clueless, scientifically. They attribute the "strength" of the porters and water carriers to their short stature, frequent rests, the way the tump line (carrying strap) of the Nepalese is used across the forehead (but they don't elaborate on how that would work), and a greater number of oxygen-bearing red blood cells that typically develop in all human beings who live at high altitudes for some period of time. At no time does any knowledge of biomechanics or even mechanical engineering (structure) come to bear in their studies! They also forget that the African women are not living at high altitudes, might be relatively tall, and that they carry the jugs of water on their heads, not necessarily with tump lines.

In a post a month or two ago, Mike Sigman made a really sensible postulation about the African water carriers and such load bearers, noting that a jin path to the ground was the most likely reason for their amazing abilities. It's not magic, and it's not even "rocket science." It's knowledge of structure and load-bearing, as well as the human body's ability to make maneuvers to maximize those elements. But not a soul in the science world seems to have investigated the structural physics and the biomechanics of it.

It would be a great thesis for a master's or Ph.D. in exercise physiology, physical anthropology and a number of other areas. Personally, if I had the energy to go back to grad school and finish my degree work in primate evolutionary ecology, I'd do it myself. But except for the Belgian researchers, no one else seems to have even a bit of curiosity about this peculiar phenomenon that seems to fly in the face of normal human function.

So, I don't expect too many people to get excited about other aspects of internal skills, either.

BTW, I would consider the activities below to be a perfectly fine demonstration of some of the internal skills Justin would like to see. I've been to Nepal four times, and many times have seen tiny, elderly Nepalese women carrying 75 lbs. of firewood on their backs with tump lines, trotting up steep Himalayan trails while I (a very fit hiker at the time) was left in the dust. I guess what fascinated me more, was that these old ladies and young girls were doing virtually all of the heavy load carrying while their menfolk sat in the tea shops and played cards.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Times June 17, 2005

Why the sherpas of Nepal would leave our fittest soldiers standing
By Mark Henderson, Science Correspondent

NEPALESE mountain porters who climb steep Himalayan slopes carrying more than their bodyweight are the fittest and most efficient load-lifters in the world, scientists have found.
Their combination of technique and physical ability makes their performance far more effective than that of Western soldiers marching with backpacks, according to research. It even surpasses the most efficient carrying methods studied to date: those of African women whose loads are balanced on or suspended from the head.

A study by Belgian researchers has quantified the remarkable efficiency of Nepal's porters, most of whom come from the sherpa, Rai or Tamang ethnic groups, for the first time. They carry huge loads in a basket known as doko, which is supported with a strap looping around the top of the head.

A team led by Norman Heglund of the Catholic University of Louvain, in Brussels, conducted tests on eight porters travelling to a bazaar in the town of Namche, which lies 3,500m (11,500ft) above sea level close to Mount Everest.

The dirt-track route from the Kathmandu Valley to Namche covers 62 miles (100km), with combined ascents of about 8,000m and descents of about 6,300m, and takes seasoned porters between seven and nine days to complete. Hundreds of porters make the trek every week; on the day before the bazaar, the scientists counted 545 men and 97 women, along with 32 yaks, with many more passing earlier and later in the darkness. The youngest porter was 11 and the oldest 68.

All were carrying loads that seemed unfeasibly heavy to Western observers. The men bore an average of 93 per cent of their bodyweight and the women an average of 66 per cent. A fifth of the men were carrying 125 per cent of their bodyweight and one managed an astonishing 183 per cent.

By contrast, the greatest loads carried by African women, such as those of the Kikuyu tribe in Kenya, amount to 60 per cent of bodyweight, and the loads typically included in military backpacks are lower still.

Dr Heglund, whose results are published today in the journal Science, recruited eight of the porters for further investigation, which has shed some light on the nature of their amazing skills. The porters were asked to walk along a 51m flat track at five different speeds, carrying six or seven different loads, while their oxygen intake and carbon dioxide output was measured.

The tests revealed that loads of up to 20 per cent of bodyweight were carried "for free" — meaning that the porters' metabolic rate did not increase at all compared with an unladen walk. With higher proportional loads, their energy efficiency was far greater than seen with the most efficient head-based carrying techniques used in Africa.

Previous research comparing Kikuyu women with army recruits found that the former carried heavy loads much more efficiently. For loads of 20 per cent of bodyweight, Kikuyu oxygen consumption rose 2 per cent compared with 13 per cent for the soldiers. The difference was even greater for 70 per cent loads: the soldiers used 100 per cent more oxygen, but the women only 50 per cent more. The porters did even better. While they were not subjected to quite the same tests, they were able to carry an extra 30 per cent of bodyweight, on average, while maintaining the same metabolic rate.

Their secret seems to rest on three factors. The first is physiology: the combination of a short but powerful stature and a high red blood cell count evolved as a result of living at high altitude. Also critical is their carrying technique, by which a strap around the head bears the majority of the load. The final element seems to be the regular rests that they take during their climbs.

TAKING THE STRAIN

SHERPA

Technique: doko basket on the back supported by namlo strap around head

Load and efficiency: male porters carry average of 93 per cent of bodyweight, females 66 per cent. Maximum was 183 per cent. Can carry 100 per cent of bodyweight for same energy used by an African woman carrying 70 per cent

AFRICAN WOMEN

Technique: loads balanced on the head or suspended from it using straps. The most efficient method, used by the Kenyan Kikuyu, uses bindings across the forehead to support a load on the back

Load and efficiency: Loads do not generally exceed 60 per cent of bodyweight

SOLDIER

Technique: backpack with shoulder and waist straps

Load and efficiency: US Army guidelines say that a backpack should weigh no more than 15 per cent of a soldier's weight. A 70 per cent load raises oxygen consumption 100 per cent

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 04-08-2007 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 04-08-2007, 05:10 PM   #14
dps
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Your external strength is based on how well you use your internal structure and musculature ( internal strength).

David
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Old 04-08-2007, 05:17 PM   #15
Mike Sigman
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I am curious as to how maybe Rob, Mike or Dan would interpret Arm Wrestling and venture to say how they would see someone that had a greater understanding of internal skills seeing them apply to a game/sport like arm wrestling. Can it apply, or is the parameters so constrained that it would preclude the use of internal skills as they define them?
But see, this is just another example of the constant round and round, re-visiting the same topics over and over that I get tired of. I posted the URL of the videoclip of Kuroda Sensei doing techniques and at the end showing 2 "ki" examples, one of which was a version of arm-wrestling. Another example (note that I'm trying to keep these anecdotes far removed from anything that I am attesting to) that I can think of was Lee Scheele (studies Wu style with Tony Ho in Orange County) mentioning an anecdote (note: Lee wasn't there and is only repeating what his teacher *told* him and Lee tends to be very worshipful of his teacher) where his teacher arm-wrestled a guy and used jin to defeat him.

I think an interesting side note I see to a lot of these discussions is that the Asians tend to keep things secret and NOT show them publicly (a good habit if you have a tradition of protecting your martial skills from public exposure so people can't figure how to defeat those techniques).... yet a lot of westerners jump up and say "If he's so good, why hasn't he entered a UFC competition and kicked butt". They can't imagine someone not strutting his stuff and kicking butt, bragging about it in public, demo'ing it, etc. It's a marked difference in approach and perhaps a little bit of arrogance when you loudly assume anyone worth his salt would do it your way.

Best.

Mike
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Old 04-08-2007, 05:20 PM   #16
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
I guess what fascinated me more, was that these old ladies and young girls were doing virtually all of the heavy load carrying while their menfolk sat in the tea shops and played cards.
That's pretty arrogant, Cady. Just because people live in Nepal doesn't mean they don't know the proper assignment of responsibilities.

Best.

Mike "Runs For Cover" Sigman
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Old 04-08-2007, 05:21 PM   #17
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Sounds like a certain chap in Durango needs some old Nepalese ladies to come and "tune" him.
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Old 04-08-2007, 05:40 PM   #18
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Cady,

I go to Africa on occasion and I am constantly amazed at the women that carry those loads. I have a picture of a one woman carrying a child on her hip with a 50 or 60 lb propane bottle on her head, effortlessly. Amazing!

Anyway, I had to laugh at the "U.S. Army guideline". 15%. that would mean that a soldier 175lb solder would carry...what a 26 lb pack? that does not even meet our "competition" standard for testing of a 35lb rucksack!

I estimated that my basic load of gear of as an infantrymen well exceeded over 100lbs..dry. I weigh about 225lbs and I have wieghed on the scales, my carrying load of what we call "full battle rattle" and I was well over 350 lbs total!

Anyway, maybe my issue is that I have experienced the same things and this is only semantics! I have done some pretty extreme things in my time!

I do prefer sipping a beer and playing dominoes while the women folk work...that is appealing! I see this in Africa as well.

Anyway, I am a little confused...it seems you and I agree? right?

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Old 04-08-2007, 05:43 PM   #19
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Thanks Mike, so you are saying that it is possible say in an arm Wrestling venue, where things appear to be fairly well isoloated from the hip movement/ground...that Jin is still in use.

I would not venture to say that you could "see" this...I think this would be very silly as it would simply look like arm wrestling with the other guy tanking it!

Thanks for the reply.

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Old 04-08-2007, 08:08 PM   #20
Mike Sigman
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Thanks Mike, so you are saying that it is possible say in an arm Wrestling venue, where things appear to be fairly well isoloated from the hip movement/ground...that Jin is still in use.

I would not venture to say that you could "see" this...I think this would be very silly as it would simply look like arm wrestling with the other guy tanking it!

Thanks for the reply.
Exactly. Kuroda's demonstration of jin is cute (very clever), but someone with jin skills sees what he's doing right away. The next step, for someone watching who does jin skills, is to say to himself, "Hmmmmm ... I never tried that variation. I'll give it a shot". If they can't do it, they know "here's another one I've got to practice.".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InlQtTMK5Ys

Same with Ueshiba's jo-trick. It's a "good one" (even though he never fully pulls it off in the videos we can see). Still, the jo-trick is such a stretch that anyone with jin skills (actually that one takes very good jin skills and well-trained ki to pull off, if it can ever really be pulled off) would automatically think, "Hmmmmmm.... heck, Ueshiba must have really trained his skills to a high level".

These are body-skills, Kevin. Without going back through them, you've heard how they make someone difficult to throw, how it gives a lot of power for short releases, how it conveys power in an unusual way out to the hands, feet, etc. There are variations that are *very* clever. The Chinese refer to these variations as the "19 types of jin" and that sort of stuff... but they all come from the one jin.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 04-08-2007, 08:26 PM   #21
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Thanks Mike, so you are saying that it is possible say in an arm Wrestling venue, where things appear to be fairly well isoloated from the hip movement/ground...that Jin is still in use.

I would not venture to say that you could "see" this...I think this would be very silly as it would simply look like arm wrestling with the other guy tanking it!

Thanks for the reply.
Kevin, Actually there is a slight "catch" in the way Kuroda does it.
Notice he does it a) when he's lying down, body stretched out.
and b) with his pinky.

a) For someone with these skills, it's easier if the body is oriented this way. (Once you have Jin skills, body orientation doesn't really matter, but it still doesn't hurt )
b) In that particular context, once you have the skills, in a way its easier to only use the pinky, or index finger because it forces you to work double time in using your Jin to "input" it to the other guy
Which is why the Ueshiba demo where he lifts and tosses people with his index finger in Kokyu dosa is a "kind" of a trick. You need the skill first, but that context makes it easier for him to pull it off.

FWIW
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Old 04-08-2007, 08:42 PM   #22
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Kevin,

I'd disagree with you on the part about the sipping beer while the womenfolk work, but that could just be my gender bias.
Women do most of the physical labor in agricultural/pastoral, non-industrial countries. Men are "too important" because they can get the paying jobs in town --as drivers, tourist industry workers, etc. When I was in India and Nepal, I saw mostly women doing the bulk of the day-to-day hard physical work. Men would plow the fields with water buffalo, and do roof thatching -- which are sporadic or at least not frequent tasks. The rest of the time they drink tea (or booze), play low-stakes gambling games, run cockfighting matches and enjoy other timekillers between sex, plowing and paying gigs.

"Thank goodness for post-Industrial Western life," she said.

I wouldn't say that the only "secrets" are the ones that we don't know about when it comes to the cogently-developed, integrated system of internal body skills that arose in Asia perhaps largely for martial use. It was not meant for the average Joe as load-bearing is, and I believe that it is also not a spontaneous discovery that others will find on their own, although many discrete initernal body skills, such as the weight-bearing method, have been spontaneous, parallel discoveries in many cultures and places in the world. Given a few millennia, a culture will plumb the depths of any skill that is necessary for its survival. IOW, if you live in a culture where you have to carry heavy loads on your body for long distances, your people will figure out a way, over time, to make that process as efficient as possible. And it will be handed down mother to daughter/father to son. Necessity being the mother of invention.

One problem we Westerners have as a group, is that we are armchair thinkers and mental doers. Many of our amazing inventions involve machinery and electronics to do the work for us. Most of us have lost touch with our bodies as machines that do work, and would not know where to begin to learn to manipulate our internal structure and movement.

So, I think that unlike your round-Earth paradigm, knowledge of how to implement internal skills can make a difference in our post-industrial world, in terms of body efficiency in doing work, if nothing else. In martial arts, I deeply believe in their efficacy, having seen and felt it myself. And heck, I may have to carry propane tanks some day, and I sure would like to do it without getting a hernia. And, I want to go back to Nepal and show those ladies that a Westerner can trot up miles of foothill paths at 12,000', carrying a load of firewood without breaking a sweat.

And, Kevin, if you train in and learn this stuff, maybe you could get a gov't contract to teach soldiers how to carry more weight with greater efficiency so they don't eat and sweat so much. We tax payers will appreciate the savings in food, deoderant and other stuff the military uses by the truckload to fuel its troops.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 04-08-2007 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 04-09-2007, 01:49 AM   #23
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Cady, you are certainly quick witted!

I would say to a point it would make sense that these methodologies would be perserved somewhat in more ancient cultures than in the west. As a culture, the west was torn apart over the last 1000 years, with technology being the driving force behind our successes.

So, yes, I can see where certain methodologies to train skills would be preserved and codified.

I use the word methodology, as I do believe that there is a clear and separate distinction between methodology and skill.

What is being transmitted is the methodology and not any unique set of skills, as I hypothesize, that athletes and people that must use these type of things figure it out, or at least components of them to support there activities.

I can remember as a young guy working on potatote farms, moving heavy barrells 14 hours a day. It sucked for a couple of weeks until you figured out how to stop using muscle and "connecting" with the barrel. I could then do some pretty amazing things that made them look almost weightless.

Anyway, believe it or not, you are not so far off on your speculation concerning my goals to become a contractor in the martial area. I will most likely be working in this area in some capacity.

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Old 04-09-2007, 01:52 AM   #24
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Mike/Rob,

Thanks again for the video and the explaination. I had forgotten about that video.

You do see him moving the hand through a kokyu plane, which I never caught before.

Appreciate you guys sharing that, and I hope to get with you within the next year!

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Old 04-09-2007, 06:29 AM   #25
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Internal strength in bowling, fencing, golf, etc.

Kevin, I agree with your use of "methodology." These are principle-based concepts that become deeply integrated -- not just "technique." It's just that "skill" is a convenient word to describe the abilities or actions themselves, such as that of efficiently carrying load.
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