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Old 04-02-2007, 03:05 AM   #101
Upyu
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Wow, months of discussion and trying to understand and NOW several of you guys admit that it is possible that top notch BJJ guys may have "components" of internal skill!
Lol, dude before you get your panties in a bind, I say "components", but that doesn't say all that much. Sure they have components... but that doesn't make the skill. We all have the components (we got two arms, two legs, a head, and some of us have half a brain), but its the skill and the "way" its developed that defines the stuff being talked about. Ultimately the musculature, the "components" themselves change physiologically in a very large way.
And that's definitely something the BJJ guys never get (ever see a guy with a musculature resembling the AUN statues? )
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:08 AM   #102
KIT
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

Could it be that guys like Mike and Rob etc...have basically isolated and refined methodologies for teaching these things, yet maybe most of them cannot bridge the gap to demonstrating incorporating these skills in a much more alive environment?
I should say that at lest Rob puts his stuff on the line - outside of aikidoka and taiji practitioners.

Rob, you know I love ya, but I know you aren't falling back on that tired old "rules" argument, brotha. Let's not have to fight "no rules" next time you are out. After getting eye gouged by that Systemite to so little effect, I'm gettin' too old for that kinda stuff.

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Old 04-02-2007, 03:10 AM   #103
KIT
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Lol, dude before you get your panties in a bind, I say "components", but that doesn't say all that much. Sure they have components... but that doesn't make the skill. We all have the components (we got two arms, two legs, a head, and some of us have half a brain), but its the skill and the "way" its developed that defines the stuff being talked about. Ultimately the musculature, the "components" themselves change physiologically in a very large way.
And that's definitely something the BJJ guys never get (ever see a guy with a musculature resembling the AUN statues? )
And you and I both know has very little to do with practical application. The two are complementary, just as being able to bench press 400 lbs is complementary to practical fighting skill - IF you have the skillset to go with it.
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:24 AM   #104
Upyu
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
And you and I both know has very little to do with practical application. The two are complementary, just as being able to bench press 400 lbs is complementary to practical fighting skill - IF you have the skillset to go with it.
Yup, mos def
No argument from me there
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Old 04-02-2007, 07:56 AM   #105
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Howard Chan wrote: View Post
There are lots of common phenomena-based tests I've found while reading on this on the interwebs.
Actually the ones you cited are more like descriptions of how to 'test' for it. Not how to 'see' it which was what I was referring to, though I may not have made that clear.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 04-02-2007, 08:28 AM   #106
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It's getting to look rather desperate on the detractors side.
It is hard to not be skeptical when the claimaints tell us about superior skills, yet aren't winning MMA tournaments (say UFC) using their amazing internal skills (that we can distinguish from regular ol brute force external skills).

Use your brain people. If someone is claiming that no matter what they cannot be pushed over, shouldn't they enter a sumo tournament, a taijiquan push hands tournament, and be the perpetual winner for the rest of their life?

Seeing tournament results would be infinitely more effective than spending $ and time to just see static demos with 'play nice' rules and dozens of parameters (which if varied, the trick probably wouldn't work), to assess martial efficiency, don't you think?

The Hardens and Sigmans of the world wouldn't touch that route with a 10 foot pole, however. Else they'd have done it by now to shut up all the "detractors" (ie. people who are skeptical of their claims).

Justin

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Old 04-02-2007, 08:37 AM   #107
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Why would one equate participation in commercial sport competitions with legitimacy as a martial artist?

Right now, people are sharing skills with others in seminars on a small scale. Those recipients are coming back to these forums and reporting their experiences. There is no televising, and money isn't changing hands. Just hard work and sharing, and the experiencing of genuine skills first-hand.

If you really wanted to know the truth about what is being discussed here, why wouldn't you simply participate in one of those seminars, or ask to train? You could buy a ringside seat to a UFC bout (which has little or no relation to what is being discussed here), but no one would be teaching you any skills.
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Old 04-02-2007, 09:06 AM   #108
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Wow, months of discussion and trying to understand and NOW several of you guys admit that it is possible that top notch BJJ guys may have "components" of internal skill!

I have been arguing this point all along! jeesh!

It would make sense that they would figure out how to be effective and efficient in this way.

could it be that these guys like Rickson have found a balance between what works?

Could it be that guys like Mike and Rob etc...have basically isolated and refined methodologies for teaching these things, yet maybe most of them cannot bridge the gap to demonstrating incorporating these skills in a much more alive environment?

Not trying to insult you guys at all...contrary...

To me it would be like a PhD that specializes in a particular focus, yet has not figured out how to implement it into a sustainable, money making practice in the real world yet.

We need both for sure in order to grow as a martial society.
Hi Kevin,

I wouldn't get too excited, I don't know that saying "internal components" is really meaningful. The definition of internal is very difficult. For example, I downloaded an ancient clip of Rickson giving a seminar, and he was explaining the importance of being relaxed by having someone stand in base and pushing on him, showing that he was harder to move and topple if he relaxed instead of fighting it. In other words he was showing basic rooting. This is something you can figure out on your own if you have as much practice as he does, or it could have been passed along from Helio as a fundamental, but either way you could say that's a "component", but I don't think it means anything. In his case relaxation is emphasized so as not to rely on strength, which is a fundamental philosophy of BJJ. It's also a practical training matter that relying on strength hinders learning technique, and it's a difficult matter for big guys to overcome. As Rorion used to say, being strong and not relying on your strength is like having a million dollars in the bank and not writing any checks.

But again, I personally think "internal components" is totally meaningless because you don't have internal movement until you extend certain concepts deliberately to their furthest logical conclusion, and most people are completely unaware of just how far these concepts can be taken. The movement of someone like a Chen Xiao Wang is completely unnatural and nothing anyone would ever get without years of dedicated practice at not doing anything that feels "natural".

As to your "alive environment" comment, I've seen that addressed here repeatedly. Static demonstrations are to easily show what is going on, nothing else. If it were just used on you in an "alive" way, you'd have no clue what happened. Of course the point is alive usage, it's about things that should be part of a great many martial arts. Being able to drive all motion this way takes a lot of dedicated practice exactly because it's totally unnatural, and it's easy to revert to "natural" movement under pressure. That's why people who know about this stuff can instantly spot that someone is talking about something else when they start saying it's natural, athletes naturally have it, it comes along with a lot of regular practice, etc. No way. It is much harder to learn than anything "natural", and it's compounded by the fact that the people who really know how to do it don't really teach it, they keep a pretty tight lid on it. One of the big benefits of being shown any of this directly is that you can then gain a lot more from the masters because you can understand more of what they're doing vs what they're saying, if they say anything at all. I saw a seminar report from someone regarding a master who would be known to Aikiweb members whose name I will not mention, someone who has a level of this skill. Said attendee trained with this master for a week long seminar, and while the master demonstrated all manner of things, he never once explained how to do anything. So people just made copies of what he did, empty of any real substance. This person, however, had visited Mike, and so knew what to look for, and was able to take away a lot of information that passed by everyone else. This is the sort of path you have to take to sneak in the door, and without some level of this being openly shown it's a 1000 times harder and practically impossible. Trust me, even being shown anything statically is gold, and any expectation that you can easily use this stuff in an "alive" environment without relearning what you do "naturally" is a non-starter. If you're looking for something that can be learned in a week, take up knitting or something.
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Old 04-02-2007, 09:08 AM   #109
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Why would one equate participation in commercial sport competitions with legitimacy as a martial artist?

Right now, people are sharing skills with others in seminars on a small scale. Those recipients are coming back to these forums and reporting their experiences. There is no televising, and money isn't changing hands. Just hard work and sharing, and the experiencing of genuine skills first-hand.

If you really wanted to know the truth about what is being discussed here, why wouldn't you simply participate in one of those seminars, or ask to train? You could buy a ringside seat to a UFC bout (which has little or no relation to what is being discussed here), but no one would be teaching you any skills.
I think cady is quite right, but. Whilst I don't necessarily agree with Justin's idea that people need to go to competitions to 'prove' themselves. He does raise a valid point about all of this stuff. Namely, that stating things along the lines of 'a 400lb baby-eating monster of a man can't push me over' is a little bit of a misdirection of the facts. His size and weight are irrelevant if his pushing technique is poor. Makes me want to ask if such internal skills come with tights and a cape.

The reality of the situation in which someone pushes on your chest like that is usually far different than how it might sound. I know that I personally can have a 260lb man push on my chest and he will acheive nothing. Just like the above described 'void'. However, if the same guy took a good hard run up to me and/or gave me a good hard shove I may need to take a step or two or alter my foot position in order to absorb the force sufficiently. Does this mean I don't have these skills? No. Just means that I'm quite honest enough to admit I'm not superman, and I have much more to learn. When you know how to push and 'move with ki' then you can make yourself into kryptonite if you need to.

I had a guy come visit us, he was really strong and coordinated (he'd done some ki aikido before), he was powerful enough and skilled enough that if anyone else on the mat tried to he could stop their movement quite easily. Anyone except me that is and I too had trouble moving him. But I could do it. Reminds me of Koichi Tohei's account of his training misogi and becoming so tired that at aikido practice he was so completely relaxed that eventually nobody in the dojo could move him, nobody that is except for the founder. There are levels to these things and people who may appear unmovable often only appear so when they control the situation in which they display such abilities. Nobody is totally 'immovable', if they were bulldozers would bounce off them. Yet the way people sometimes describe these things makes it sound as though the bulldozer would come off worse in an argument.

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 04-02-2007, 09:12 AM   #110
DH
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Justin
I can't figure out if your baiting, dumb, or you just can't read.
Did you miss
All the posts about ex Navy Boxers, MMA, With BJJ, Judo, collegiate wresttlers, as well as guys who were canditating for UFC.etc.
Did you miss
Rob's posts about messing with shoot fighters, Judo guys pride qualifiers and BJJers.
Did you miss
The comments about "static testing" for training only but that it isn't the real skills?
Did you miss
The men training being shown why they are doing things and where it comes into play in movement and fighting. Why? Because they were shown with me moving and them trying to "actively" throw me or hit me.

No, I don't think you missed it. I think you are ignoring it. Since you ignore that and keep throwing out these one liners -I have reduced your behaviour to the Aikiwebb troll.
There are about a dozen guys here you could question in detail, and get answers directly (as they didn't believe it either till they felt it) then you can challenge their judgement as well-all from the safety of your keyboard.
Why is that you and others like you never approach them? You'd have few choices.
1.Why not ask them about moving and throwing in an active environment since you seem to be so curous to kerep bringing it up.
2. Why not ask them about trying to hit me boxing style and what it felt like to try?
3. Ask them what it feels like to go for a single or double leg shoot?
4. Aske them how effective any attempt at entering was
Ask Justin
Ask
They are right here.........

You would have to call them all collectively: liars, fools, men unable to judge, or insult them by calling them "Acolytes" like one fellow here did.
There's no where to go with that line of logic, and you won't dare show up in person.
The people here asked- I opened the door to folks from here. The response has been both consistent and positive. The credibility has been answered.
I think your real issues are transparent. You are intellectually disshonest. The information is there and you ignore it to troll.
I think the people here took your suggestion.
They did "use their brains."
Perhaps you should take your own advice.

Last edited by DH : 04-02-2007 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 04-02-2007, 10:22 AM   #111
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Just a thought. I know a few guys who went to a multi-martial art seminar with a guy who did combat ki. If you do not know what this is, basically he takes shots in the nuts, throat, body, legs, etc without any noticeable injury. He had tons of people come up and hit him, my friends included. Also at this seminar was a bjj instructor. After the combat ki guy did his thing, it was now the bjj instructor's turn. He did his thing and asked if anyone would like to spar to feel how bjj feels in an alive context. The combat ki guy answered. Now for this part I have to describe the combat ki guy. He was a large man of about 200+ at least who looked menancing. He was paired up with a guy we call the shark, who is about 5'8" or 5'9" and fights at 145 pounds. The shark tapped him out quickly in a few seconds with a knee on belly (Btw, this is not a submission, but a position used to setup submissions).

So in essence, we have a man, who is considered very good at his art in mid/upper dan levels, unable to perform the same feats he was able to do in a controlled environment in side an uncontrolled environment. This is similar to what my aikido instructor told me about these guys. That they are vulnerable once you move them, because they never train to perform their skills while moving. For him (my aikido instructor) its not about being able to demo an unbendable arm, its about having an unbendable arm in everything you do, even if he just walks up behind you while your getting a drink and tries to snatch up your arm.

So for me, it is cool to see a demo that some guy can do something like this, but until I get to spar one of them, I can't see how it will help me at all. What is going to make me better, spending less time training basic martial technique to hopefully be able to have internal strength in 20 years, or spend more time working my basic fundamental techniques and gain measurable martial skill with results I can quickly measure, do not require hunting to the ends of the earth for a teacher who can explain, and have an easy means of testing in semi realistic combat?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-02-2007, 10:34 AM   #112
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
So for me, it is cool to see a demo that some guy can do something like this, but until I get to spar one of them, I can't see how it will help me at all.
Yeah, but Don, you're highlighting one of the continuing problems with these discussions... people just don't understand the subject, so they make comments that, well, show that they don't understand the topic.

The "Combat Ki" guys I used to see on Okinawa sometimes years ago. What happened was that some guy got hold of some very limited aspects of the pressure-conditioning that is common in some of the southern Shaolin arts. The kokyu stuff Dan, Ushiro, Abe, etc., is talking about is the jin-related stuff. The pressure-stuff is an offshoot of the breathing practices. Essentially it builds up pressure and fascial conditioning, but often in an extreme way (like I said, there are variants and wild permutations of this stuff because it's a big topic). The combat-ki guys that I've seen lately tend to be somewhat lardy guys that can take blows to the body, but their actual fighting skills are low; their knowledge of the kokyu/ki stuff is zip.

And BTW.... a large percentage of those guys have hemorrhoids and are stroke-prone from the silly way they use pressure. There's nothing as dangerous as a *little* knowledge.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 04-02-2007, 10:47 AM   #113
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Nice story Don. Mike Sigman and others have pointed out that the internal body movement needs to be "burned in", it is not and add-on skill. Thus, by definition, as you say the unbendable arm will be in everything you do. Since there is a mechanical basis to the internal skills -- they are not magic -- it is fairly easy for practioners to put them to use once they know exactly how they work. It is not as though one needs to "set up" some conditions, at a basic level this is the by-now natural mode of movement and coordination (at a given level of skill and self-knowledge), i.e. the mechanical leverage-based method of moving the body parts.

Edit: Mike beat me to it! So the "burning it" part here is a lot about use of jin, body alignments, rather than pressure useage.
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Old 04-02-2007, 01:54 PM   #114
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Thanks for the post guys...interesting stuff. Don, as usual, you explain the filters and priorities that I too put weight on, which makes this difficult for me to take in, as I too follow the same basic thought process as you on this. It has to be demonstrated in a way that is somewhat usuable.

Frankly I get confused as to the what the focus of all this is. Seems like we go through a pattern here. Proponents (those that have jumped on the bandwagon creep slowly to the fact that this is very useful...then those that say, "then why don't we see this in UFC, or in an aliveness environment ..then there is shift in definition, or a failure to define parameters...and then I am left scratching my head trying to figure out how to frame this once again.

The weight lifting thread kinda bugged me, but I refrained as I had not much positive to add. My thoughts were if weight lifing, defined core strength development, is not important, then why can I pretty much predict who will win a fight based on physical appearance 80% of the time? Also, we are we not seeing these mushy soft guys in UFC. I sort of see Justin's point, but in a slightly different way.

So, I remain confused as to the value this training might have.

That said, I will refrain from being negative until I get involved with these guys and work through my issues on my own account. I do think they have warranted enough respect and demonstrated ability through reputation to warrant spending time with...that should be enough for anyone that is genuinely interested at improving or getting better.

I will admit in my years of experience that EVERYONE that I have ever ended up studying with I was wrong about in my initial assessment. I avoided BJJ for years based on my own ignorance, and avoided other things as well...so I must assume that this too will be very useful based on my history of being wrong in this area!

I think the conversations are good here, and I think this is worthwile, I simply think that many are putting too much faith or time into learning these things...when there are other things that are very fundamental to being a good martial artist...if that is your goal.

I use the same logic with body builders. I can't understand why someone would spend all there time developing their body only for the sake of developing their body. too me weight lifting is a tool to condition you to do other things. I view these skills in the same boat...they must be additive to your practice and not what your practice has become simply for the sake of learning them...but to eaches own

...just don't call yourself a MMA guy or say that these things are useful in MMA if you can't demonstrate it.

Again, good discussion.

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Old 04-02-2007, 02:11 PM   #115
statisticool
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Did you miss
All the posts about ex Navy Boxers, MMA, With BJJ, Judo, collegiate wresttlers, as well as guys who were canditating for UFC.etc.
Did you miss
Rob's posts about messing with shoot fighters, Judo guys pride qualifiers and BJJers.
No, I read all those nice words and stuff, but the public at large has yet to see such internal gurus demonstrating their superior unmovable skills (and other skills they perfect in static demonstrations with play nice rules and parameters) in competitions.

I (don't really) wonder why that is.

Quote:
Did you miss
The men training being shown why they are doing things and where it comes into play in movement and fighting. Why? Because they were shown with me moving and them trying to "actively" throw me or hit me.
Where is the video of them "being shown"?

Quote:
You would have to call them all collectively: liars, fools, men unable to judge, or insult them by calling them "Acolytes" like one fellow here did.
I disagree with your set of choices. It could simple be regular ol external stuff and they could be waxing romantic about it, and/or not remembering the parameters correctly.

In fact, without having a video, it is quite difficult to remember with 100% accuracy, even for experts such as yourself.

Sincerely,

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-02-2007, 02:20 PM   #116
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
No, I read all those nice words and stuff, but the public at large has yet to see such internal gurus demonstrating their superior unmovable skills (and other skills they perfect in static demonstrations with play nice rules and parameters) in competitions.

I (don't really) wonder why that is.
Where is a video of YOU doing anything, Justin? Other than constant negative posts, you contribute absolutely nothing but vitriol (oh, yes, I know you deliberately try to slip in a few 2-liner posts rarely so that you can argue to Jun that you do more than than, but it's a sham). Who has seen you do anything that your opinion is worth 2 cents? Who's your teacher? Have you ever studied Aikido? You've never even studied Taiji. Who was your teacher in Taiji? If he didn't teach you jin and qi skills, which from your posts he/she didn't, then he didn't teach you Taiji. Name your teacher. If you want to disparage people, put yourself on the line, too.

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-02-2007, 02:47 PM   #117
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Mike does have a good point, if you yourself are not willing to swap sweat with anyone here...hence no one here has anything to offer you, then what dog do you have in this fight so to speak.

No one has any reason to prove anything to someone that is not willing to put themselves out there as well.

Justin, do you have a video of your skills in anything to share with us?

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Old 04-02-2007, 02:50 PM   #118
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Mike does have a good point, if you yourself are not willing to swap sweat with anyone here...hence no one here has anything to offer you, then what dog do you have in this fight so to speak.

No one has any reason to prove anything to someone that is not willing to put themselves out there as well.

Justin, do you have a video of your skills in anything to share with us?
Guys,
Might I remind folks that Jun has judiciously provided us with a wonderful device called the "ignore button". I find it is REALLY helpful when I find folks who are getting my knickers all in a twist.
- George

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Old 04-02-2007, 02:58 PM   #119
DonMagee
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

There are videos on the web of me getting my butt kicked. They are fairly old though. I'll see if I can get some new video's up as soon as I find more willing participants to kick my butt.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:03 PM   #120
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

told twice in one day not to get my knickers in a twist! what are you guys trying to tell me?

Your starting to give me a complex!

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Old 04-02-2007, 03:10 PM   #121
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Frankly I get confused as to the what the focus of all this is. Seems like we go through a pattern here. Proponents (those that have jumped on the bandwagon creep slowly to the fact that this is very useful...then those that say, "then why don't we see this in UFC, or in an aliveness environment ..then there is shift in definition, or a failure to define parameters...and then I am left scratching my head trying to figure out how to frame this once again.
Kevin, let us assume for the moment that everything the "proponents" here have said is true. Well, actually I do believe that, but as you're still on the fence, I'd ask you to just assume the conceit.

So, if we assume that, we have aikido. An art devoted, ostensibly, according to all three Doshus and Tohei, to developing "Ki" and "kokyu-ryoku". And yet these skills are rare in aikido, and not getting disseminated to everyone. We have Daito-ryu, aikido's parent art, which is ostensibly devoted to developing these "Aiki" skills. And yet, again, they are not widespread, and even those who have trained at its most notable dojo (Sagawa Dojo) have been seen to not have it. We have taiji, another art that perhaps more than any other is devoted to developing these skills. And yet again, these skills are rare in that art.

By all accounts, those who historically have mastered these arts have been secretive and reticent to teach them to the masses, particularly to westerners. So in such conditions, where even many who practice the very arts meant to develop these skills go off on the wrong track, or ignore the potential all together, would you really expect to see this in the UFC or Pride? If the "proponents" here have to convince the believers, as it were, why would the typical MMA'ist even give it a go, when there are more concrete, tangible things they can work on?

These skills are just starting to really get taught and disseminated. More dojos are opening up, more dojos are seeking this knowledge. 20 years ago, if you had this knowledge, you couldn't talk to people on the internet about it, and even if you did the audience at the time was microcosmic. Hell, even now all the participants of AikiWeb, Aikido Journal, and E-Budo represent a fraction of those practicing.

Quote:
So, I remain confused as to the value this training might have.
And I'm stunned that you can say that. Even setting aside doubts on whether Mike, Dan, Akuzawa, et. al can actually do what they say, if you entertain for the moment the idea that these skills exist, how can you not see the value? A strength that will not deteriorate so greatly with age? A relaxed strength that allows for more fluidity of movement? More powerful strikes and pins? The ability to physiologically and psychologically disorient an opponent? And let's go further and suggest that maybe the "proponents" here can do some stock demonstrations, but can do jack-shit (pardon the language) when it comes to an live environment. Wouldn't it be worth it to learn the skills to try and make them work for you in a live environment?

Quote:
...just don't call yourself a MMA guy or say that these things are useful in MMA if you can't demonstrate it.
And then this I really can't understand. Two major proponents of these skills, Dan and Rob, all they talk about rolling, sparring, striking, kicking. That's what they do. People get on their case for not being aikido! When I met Rob, he had me try to do one kotegaeshi on him, and then everything else was in a MMA paradigm. I held a bag while he and another Ark student kicked it and punched it to show the difference in striking. He had me mount him, get him in holds and chokes, and then showed how he could get out of them. On one hand, this was not particularly impressive, since I'm not a MMA'ist, and probably any six-month BJJ'er could easily do the same. But it shows you how he approaches this stuff and how he demonstrates it. The videos he puts up are of two things: conditioning exercises, and alive training. Have you seen the Aunkai website (newly redesigned)? How can you look at that and say it's not MMA?

Dan, his whole thing in demonstrations has been "do what you want." Try punching, pushing, tackling. Get him in any kind of lock you want. These guys aren't doing Ueshiba type tricks here. In any thread regarding competition, alive training, sparring, and the like in aikido, they are going to be on your side. All I can say is I'm halfway across the world here in Japan, trying to resolve issues in my own training, and every time I log onto AikiWeb I'm hoping to see a "Kevin Leavitt meets Dan Harden (or Akuzawa)" thread, because more than just about anybody else here I have the distinct feeling that you would really mesh with these guys, and come out of such an experience invigorated and excited about your training.

Last edited by Josh Reyer : 04-02-2007 at 03:13 PM.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:15 PM   #122
MM
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

To Don and Kevin.

Don't take this sarcastically because I'm serious. If you don't find anything useful here, why are you posting? It's been said that you can't see this stuff from a video. It's also been said that this stuff has been shown in a dynamic environment and it works. And it's been said that you have to feel this stuff. So, if you're confused and can't see how it'll be helpful, why keep posting? Because you'll just get the same answers again (see my first few sentences).

How about changing your questions? Why not direct your questions to the people who have felt it? Or some derivation?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:40 PM   #123
DonMagee
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

My point of posting was to do two things.

1) Point out why I believe what I do and state my current thoughts on this.
2) Reinforce the comments that some people are show me people outside of demonstration. I do not want a video. I want someone to train with me in a MMA context. Prove it works, and that it can be aquired in a way just as efficent as martial technique.

See, it doesn't' matter if it works. Even assuming that it works we then have to ask, its it feasible. From what I've read here I have doubts to if the training is as efficient as my current training and worth sacrificing my current training to build this skill.

So for questions.

I have 8 hours a week to train for upcoming NAGA. Providing I have an instructor with the real internal skills. How many hours should be devoted to bjj, and how many to building internal strength. Now how do I hook these together into something actually usable?

It seems to me that my time is better spent drilling passes, escapes, and submissions, then sparing. Every hour I work on rooting is an hour I could be throwing resisting opponents and fixing flaws in my technique.

I used to train bjj 2 days a week, and aikido 3 days a week. Most of my aikido class supposedly focused on building ki. In fact I'd say 90% of the class is ki exercises. I've seen very cool things out of the brown belts and the instructors, however over the course of 2 years I have not found tangible benefit to ki training to help my fighting ability.

This is not to say it is worthless, but until I am proven otherwise, I have to conclude based on experience that my time more efficiently spent perfecting my technique in alive drills.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:45 PM   #124
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Thanks for the encouragement Josh.

As I said, I have my own criteria, as selfish and personal as it maybe, so admittidly that is what I am using to try and understand this. I am not trying to be judgemental or negative, only trying to understand it based on that criteria. My criteria is mine. I don't mean to invalidate or say Mike or anyone is wrong because they have there own, and that is fine! (Just wanted to clarify this is where I am coming from).

I do not mean to imply that I see no value in it. I am saying I don't understand the value in it. A big difference from others I believe that are seeking to say this is crap or something along those lines. There is a difference between seeking to understand vice seeking to discredit.

I had the same problem with my aikido practice for many years and frankly that is the question I ask everyday I train...what is the value of what I am doing?

I don't know enough about the Aunkai website or akuwaza to comment on it, although it does seem very impressive.

Obviously I see value in this type of training as I continue to study Aikido, and certainly anything that improves my ability to understand body movement and kinetics as it relates to Martial arts is worthwhile.

again, it is a question of realitive value, not of total value!

I'd say that someone that has designed/codified a program of study that provides a methodology for core practices with aliveness training would be on the right track, and it would keep me from having to study both aikido and BJJ.

Josh wrote:

Quote:
And then this I really can't understand. Two major proponents of these skills, Dan and Rob, all they talk about rolling, sparring, striking, kicking. That's what they do. People get on their case for not being aikido! When I met Rob, he try to do one kotegaeshi on him, and then everything else was in a MMA paradigm. I held a bag while he and another Ark student kicked it and punched it to show the difference in striking. He had me mount him, get him in holds and chokes, and then showed how he could get out of them. On one hand, this was not particularly impressive, since I'm not a MMA'ist, and probably any six-month BJJ'er could easily do the same. But it shows you how he approaches this stuff and how he demonstrates it
Your above experience is why I get confused and discerning/critical when viewing this and the claims many are making concerning the value.

It means a great deal more to me when someone like Pete comes on here and says "I have walked the walk and these are my experiences with this." No disrespect intended to pure aikidoka or self defined internist here, but when claims about concerning the benefit these skills have are made here, I want take my advice from those that train in the fashion that the claims are being made to...that is all. Simply saying...be honest about what you are saying. That is all.

If it is an intellectual pursuit for you..fine..then say that.

Josh wrote:

Quote:
Dan, his whole thing in demonstrations has been "do what you want." Try punching, pushing, tackling. Get him in any kind of lock you want. These guys aren't doing Ueshiba type tricks here. In any thread regarding competition, alive training, sparring, and the like in aikido, they are going to be on your side. All I can say is I'm halfway across the world here in Japan, trying to resolve issues in my own training, and every time I log onto AikiWeb I'm hoping to see a "Kevin Leavitt meets Dan Harden (or Akuzawa)" thread, because more than just about anybody else here I have the distinct feeling that you would really mesh with these guys, and come out of such an experience invigorated and excited about your training.
All I have ever asked for is pretty much defining this criteria as you state above and I have no issue and will then go and train. It is as simple as that, and then we will all be great friends as you state having shared a common bond and community of practice!

So, if what you say is true...then I have no real issues with it.

Everything that I have seen though has pretty much centered around static practices, and core foundational training...which is very, very important, and frankly where the conversation should be focused.

I just simply get my panties in a bunch as Rob said, when we step outside of those boundaries and then contradict things that were said much earlier months ago.

I am simply trying to understand from my perspective and put it in the right framework. One day I here...no BJJ guys don't get it. Then I hear..well the have components of it, where it is useful to them. Which is what I said months ago! It confuses my simple mind that is trying to only learn and sort through information!

Again, I don't do aikido for the sake of doing aikido any more than I lift weights to be a body builder. I don't do BJJ for the sake of doing BJJ....but this is me, and the criteia only applies to me.

Thanks again!

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Old 04-02-2007, 04:08 PM   #125
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
My point of posting was to do two things.

1) Point out why I believe what I do and state my current thoughts on this.
2) Reinforce the comments that some people are show me people outside of demonstration. I do not want a video. I want someone to train with me in a MMA context. Prove it works, and that it can be aquired in a way just as efficent as martial technique.

See, it doesn't' matter if it works. Even assuming that it works we then have to ask, its it feasible. From what I've read here I have doubts to if the training is as efficient as my current training and worth sacrificing my current training to build this skill.

So for questions.

I have 8 hours a week to train for upcoming NAGA. Providing I have an instructor with the real internal skills. How many hours should be devoted to bjj, and how many to building internal strength. Now how do I hook these together into something actually usable?

It seems to me that my time is better spent drilling passes, escapes, and submissions, then sparing. Every hour I work on rooting is an hour I could be throwing resisting opponents and fixing flaws in my technique.

I used to train bjj 2 days a week, and aikido 3 days a week. Most of my aikido class supposedly focused on building ki. In fact I'd say 90% of the class is ki exercises. I've seen very cool things out of the brown belts and the instructors, however over the course of 2 years I have not found tangible benefit to ki training to help my fighting ability.

This is not to say it is worthless, but until I am proven otherwise, I have to conclude based on experience that my time more efficiently spent perfecting my technique in alive drills.
Hi Don,

As for #2, my answer is it works. Even though I don't do MMA, I can definitely see applications to using it in an MMA environment. Let me take a stab at this. If I'm "grappling" with someone and I can take their force and ground it such that it throws them off balance, then I can take advantage of their off balance to fit whatever lock or strike I want. If someone gets an armbar on me and I can negate effectively negate that, then it gives me a lot of options I wouldn't normally have with just technique.

Feasible and efficient? Hmmm ... I don't do MMA, Don, and I don't know your current training. But, for me, it's very feasible to Aikido and actually would help make it more efficient.

Training ... I can see how that would influence someone. Especially if you're doing several martial arts. There's only so many hours in a day. For me, it's worth the time spent in internal training. But, then again, I got to experience it. If you get a chance, take it. It'll open your eyes to a whole nother level to martial arts. You'll see new avenues of "resisting" opponents and fixing flaws. And having options is always a good thing.

Mark
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