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Old 03-27-2007, 07:07 AM   #26
Mike Sigman
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I dunno Edwin
I'll write back in a few years after I've met more Aikido teachers. I haven't felt much so far. Sure seems a lot of their students aren't even headed in the right direction. Maybe they just haven't been listening to their teachers.
Here's an Aiki masters take on Waza as as a means to get you there.

Sagawa
"Training must be done EVERYDAY for the rest of your life. That is the meaning of "Shugyo." No matter how much muscle you think you aren't using (you're only misleading yourself.) The true execution of Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training to condition the body (Tanren). It is not easy to attain.
You won't be able to manifest Aiki unless you continue tanren of the body everyday for decades. You must train the body, ponder and have the techniques "seep out" from the body itself. Even if you train everyday all the while changing yourself, it will take at least 20 years. Ten years or so isn't nearly enough time.
Your body has to truly be ready; otherwise no matter what you do you won't be able to do "Aiki."
Training hard everyday in a subject many people are even sceptical exists or sceptical that it applies in Aikido, *an art they're already 'teaching'* is only going to happen with a few, Dan. I think the few that have the drive and interest have, for the most part, already stepped up. I.e., I think the law of diminishing returns is already in effect; my interest in bandying and negotiating with the masses is fading out.

Good posts, though. That's the kind of information about Japanese perspectives on these skills I was looking for.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 03-27-2007, 07:30 AM   #27
DH
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Training hard everyday in a subject many people are even sceptical exists or sceptical that it applies in Aikido, *an art they're already 'teaching'* is only going to happen with a few, Dan. I think the few that have the drive and interest have, for the most part, already stepped up. I.e., I think the law of diminishing returns is already in effect; my interest in bandying and negotiating with the masses is fading out.

Good posts, though. That's the kind of information about Japanese perspectives on these skills I was looking for.

Regards,

Mike
Yeah but you were right on many points. Not the least of which was helping and also talking about it a bit more. I never showed outsiders and after finally giving in- I've met some of those who are like us; sincere researchers. Your model of "Teaching those who were like yourself years ago." So It is a good start for the other sincere researchers out there. I was also one of the ones who thought this knowledge was -only-in their art. I had no idea it was in the asian arts in general. So that was another great piece of information.

I know what you mean about the diminishing returns. But I'm not really talking to them any more. I talk through them, past them, to the ones who have ears to hear.
Odd that of the many now coming every almost every week, none would ever go back to either the way they thought about movement or the way they practiced waza.
I'd only hope to encourage you- like you have encouraged (yeah right-prodded, chastized, beat over the head ) others, and start to help some local guys without pressing on your time too much.

In the end I'll be the first to say thanks for being another voice-even when I wanted to throw a chair at ya.......And don't give up!!!

Last edited by DH : 03-27-2007 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 03-27-2007, 07:44 AM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I was also one of the ones who thouth it was -only-in their art. I had no idea it was in Chinese arts, so that was another great piece of information.
I made the same error and for a long time. Yet, the clues were there. All the arts talk about qi, Heaven and Earth, the mind, etc. I never analysed it at the time I was wrong, but I think I was thinking that "they were talking about some other kind of qi/ki, not the Real Stuff (tm) which is in my own art." It's BS..... this stuff has been around so long that the same codified statements and tenets have become part of the lore of almost all the arts. That takes a LONG time to have come into effect. In the last year or two I've had to constantly push back not only when this stuff was first in the Chinese' hands, but also when it was first in the Japanese hands... I think again that my first impressions were wrong and that it has been around far longer than I originally thought. The A-Un statues are a strong clue that this stuff was probably in Japan around 2,000 years ago.
Quote:
I know what you mean about the diminishing returns. But I'm not really talking to them any more. I talk through them, past them, to the ones who have ears to hear.
Then you did most of your job. You don't have to nursemaid the hungry ones.
Quote:
In the end I'll be the first to say thanks for being another voice-even when I wanted to throw a chair at ya. And don't give up!!!
There's an old sign that some business people used to hang on their wall in their office: "Make a Buck". Whatever you do, large or small, you have to make a buck for yourself.

I personally go where there's information exchange and I got a lot from some of the better people on this forum... but that seems to have dried up. Rob is going to where there's more "ack-shun" in his way and I'm going to places where I can get more information. I think a lot of the discussion is now headed back to the "let's talk about this for a few more years" mode. Been there; done that. It's archived.

Best.

Mike
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Old 03-27-2007, 02:26 PM   #29
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

My work here is done.
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Old 03-28-2007, 06:52 AM   #30
Mike Sigman
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
My work here is done.
"Our work here is done, Tonto"

"Ahnnnnnnn.... that right, Kimo Sabe".

Da...dadaDa...dadaDA!
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:39 AM   #31
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Ah, Kimo Sabe ... someone once told me that meant sh**head in some native american language...

b,
r

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-28-2007, 08:31 AM   #32
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Ah, Kimo Sabe ... someone once told me that meant sh**head in some native american language...
For what its worth, http://www.old-time.com/misc/kemo.html
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Old 03-28-2007, 11:41 AM   #33
MM
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Well, Ron, since you're guiding us back to on-topic ...

Question for those who do solo training. What would you say is a good length of time each day for solo training in respect to beginners, medium level, and skilled?
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Old 03-28-2007, 12:05 PM   #34
TAnderson
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Mark,

FWIW, I try to put 2 or more hours of practice in a day. My caveat is the solo practice exercises I train are not necessarily done all at once. Often my solo training is broken up throughout the day. Also, with correct mindset on internal body mechanics and manipulation of forces one can practice your daily mundane efforts continuously (i.e., open/close doors, lift objects, etc.). For the record, I am talking about beginner level training and so far I have seen progress from this level of effort.

Tim Anderson
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Old 03-29-2007, 04:52 AM   #35
DH
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

If you're a beginner and you're doing two hours a day spread out over ten minutes here or there that's actually not so good. It's far more beneficial to set aside significant blocks of time where you can concentrate and burn-in the connections. Blocks of time will gve you chances to feel and focus far better then stolen moments, Then the greater your body understands the more you move with a new awaeness. And that becomes part of you 24/7. Then all day long- while moving- your body talks to you and you demand of it. So getting up from a couch turning around a corner, opening doors, picking up things or bumping into someone are whole new things.
If you are still doing martial arts if someone doesn't notice in a couple of months...you ain't doing it right. If it's been six months and they haven't noticed- get a teacher. After a couple of years most MA people should be stumped at having to deal with you.
Dan
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Old 03-29-2007, 12:02 PM   #36
TAnderson
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

I agree with you there Dan. Ten minute increments don't help but if you had 45 minute increments a good exercise and of course instruction on the how's and why's of the exercise then one should be able to get their foot in the door.

Tim Anderson
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Old 03-29-2007, 12:22 PM   #37
DH
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Yup
Can't speak for anyone else but I have folks do the what looks like essentially the same things.
But group a is doing 1,2,
Group b is doing 1,2,3,
Next is doing 1,2,3,4,5
There are stages to things I do. Your body has to be ready for it or its really a waste of time.They won't even feel it, it will go right over their head.
Other things I do are simple direct things that just build over time through repatition.
But that's just me.

Last edited by DH : 03-29-2007 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 03-29-2007, 03:49 PM   #38
Talon
 
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Can someone Dan or Mike, give some us real newbies an excercise or two to try? solo excercises or partnered ones?

Paul
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Old 03-29-2007, 11:38 PM   #39
Aran Bright
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
"Our work here is done, Tonto"

"Ahnnnnnnn.... that right, Kimo Sabe".

Da...dadaDa...dadaDA!
"Who was that masked man?"

"He'll be back."


http://brisbaneaikido.com

Brisbane Aikido Republic
Brisbane
Australia
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Old 03-30-2007, 08:23 PM   #40
Al Heinemann
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote: View Post
Can someone Dan or Mike, give some us real newbies an excercise or two to try? solo excercises or partnered ones?

Paul
Hi Paul,

I believe that part of what Dan, Mike et al. have been arguing is that you have to first "feel" these skills before you can properly train in them.

I f you search enough you will find that Rob John has posted detailed explanations and videos of some of the exercises done with his teacher Akuzawa. Maybe these will help you and maybe, like I mentioned, you have to feel it first.

Good luck to you.
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Old 03-30-2007, 10:02 PM   #41
Talon
 
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Thanks Al... I did a google search on Akuzawa and saw some of the youtube videos however I did not fine and aeplanations on what is really going on or about excercises one can do to start developing these skills.

If you do have some links, please PM me .

Thanks again,

Paul
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Old 03-31-2007, 03:09 AM   #42
Upyu
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote: View Post
Thanks Al... I did a google search on Akuzawa and saw some of the youtube videos however I did not fine and aeplanations on what is really going on or about excercises one can do to start developing these skills.

If you do have some links, please PM me .

Thanks again,

Paul
Paul, the english version of the Aunkai website is up, and there's a lot of information in there about our approach, but you'll have to be willing to wade through Ark's diatribe (and partly mine since I transed it ^^; )
That being said I also did an article on training the body for Martial Movement, archived in a the training section. Do a search
(Look for "Training the Body for Martial Movement")
It should get your foot in the door so to speak.

Oh, and if the exercises aren't excruciatingly difficult...you're probably #"#$ing something up.
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Old 03-31-2007, 06:25 AM   #43
DH
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Lightbulb Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Oh, and if the exercises aren't excruciatingly difficult...you're probably #"#$ing something up.
I loved the comment you amde once
"If you're claiming you do twenty of those a day:
1. You're either not doing them right
2. Lying
3. Or I want to come train with you.
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Old 04-01-2007, 08:43 PM   #44
Mike Sigman
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote: View Post
Can someone Dan or Mike, give some us real newbies an excercise or two to try? solo excercises or partnered ones?
OK, get a "push broom", a broom with a wide horizontal head of bristles attached to a long handle. Place the wooden head of the push broom across your hips at the hip joint and the tip of the handle on your partners chest (suitably padded so it doesn't hurt his chest). Then walk forward across the room pushing your partner back with just your hips pushing the broom into his chest. Notice how it is just your hips pushing.

Then go back to the starting point and get rid of the broom. Put your hand on your partner's chest, and then walk forward pushing him back across the room pushing him with your hips and the imaginary balloon.... your hand on his chest is simply the tip of the handle that was on his chest before.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 04-01-2007, 09:04 PM   #45
Upyu
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
If you're a beginner and you're doing two hours a day spread out over ten minutes here or there that's actually not so good. It's far more beneficial to set aside significant blocks of time where you can concentrate and burn-in the connections. Blocks of time will gve you chances to feel and focus far better then stolen moments, Then the greater your body understands the more you move with a new awaeness. And that becomes part of you 24/7. Then all day long- while moving- your body talks to you and you demand of it. So getting up from a couch turning around a corner, opening doors, picking up things or bumping into someone are whole new things.
If you are still doing martial arts if someone doesn't notice in a couple of months...you ain't doing it right. If it's been six months and they haven't noticed- get a teacher. After a couple of years most MA people should be stumped at having to deal with you.
Dan
Just to put things in perspective, I got to meet Tim. And for only having started these exercises a short while ago 6months I think?
he had a great feel to him. But I agree, once you get a grasp on the training exercises, you have to push yourself occasionally.

I often tell guys to start small on the solo exercises, building up a habit to do them everyday. If I were to choose between doing 2 hours 3 times a week, or 10-15 minutes twice a day everyday I'd pick the latter. As the connections burn in you can build up to doing concentrated tanren sessions that last 2 hours or more <gulp>.

Frankly, I'm a lazy bastard, and it's a good thing that at a minimum I was forced to have a concentrated 2 hour session twice a week. Then my own training didn't feel quite so bad and I'd force myself to increase the density and length of my own practice.

Funny annecdote, I was just cornering for one of my shooto friends at a fight he had yesterday. After the fight, we were sitting down in a soba stall, and since he kept on bitchign to me about "well I still dont get how come you punch so hard? Is it how use the lats etc?"
So I had my girl (small Japanese girl, loves shiny things, Louis Vitton, Chritian Dior, dyed hair, manicured nails, 109, high heels, barely tips the scale at 100lb) punch him in his pecs. First she did a "girly" punch, and I was like, oh cmon' do the one you always do, when you're pissed at me, you know? the one where you focus on your back?" and she punched him again girly like...onlly this time it hit hard enough that he got rocked back into the wall of the shop.
The look on his face was priceless

Anyways, just goes to show that even a little bit, done dilligently everyday can have an effect.
Even for a 100lb 109 gyaru

Last edited by Upyu : 04-01-2007 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 04-02-2007, 05:16 AM   #46
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Anyways, just goes to show that even a little bit, done dilligently everyday can have an effect.
Even for a 100lb 109 gyaru
So, you're saying that you can use Para-Para to learn internal power, right?

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 04-02-2007, 05:25 AM   #47
Upyu
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
So, you're saying that you can use Para-Para to learn internal power, right?
Hey it's all about the substance right??
There we go...new marketing scheme for japan's youth!
1nt3rnal Para Para -> ROLL THAT TaNd3n! "Spirit fingers!!!" lol
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Old 04-02-2007, 07:46 AM   #48
MM
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

I'm glad I learned not to drink and read AikiWeb at the same time. LOL.

Anyway, I did a small set of exercises this morning. I was sweating and my body was screaming and I felt like a baby because I hadn't done very many.

Mark
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Old 04-03-2007, 08:18 AM   #49
Erik Johnstone
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Mark:

It was great to meet you; hope your return trip went smoothly. Nice meeting Mark. C and Cady as well!
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