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Old 03-22-2007, 04:33 PM   #1
Saturn
 
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Evil Eyes Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

So it's like this, I've moved to a new city and of course there are two Aikikai Dojo's here, but I've just had a new baby, and of course the dojo's run really late till 9:30 PM. Thats a little late for what I'm willing to deal with.

So, I have access to demo's of all techniques from 0 to Shodan. And I have a reasonable idea of what would make a good training regime. What I want to do is continue training but Aikido can't be learned alone.

Unfortunatly I'm a fifth Kyu, but my idea is that since there are a reasonable few who are interested in learning from me and I have experience in Karate as well as Aikido I may be able to pull off a teach and learn as you go path. This is provided I can request a test for myself or others from an above Shodan Sensei.

I don't want to stop training, and have access to safe places in which to train, and I only want to profit by learning at no cost except sweat, if anyone has any ideas on what I should consider beforehand, because this has till the weekend to begin taking shape then any tips or precautions would be hot. Thanx!

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Old 03-22-2007, 05:24 PM   #2
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Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

I think you'll find teaching overwhelming very quickly. I don't know how long you've been training, but 5th kyu is pretty early to take on such and endevor; in my oppinion.

I would bite the bullet, and start training at one of the two dojo's you have avalible to you.

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Old 03-22-2007, 05:26 PM   #3
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Evil Eyes Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Another thing I wonder about are waivers, I am of course this lowly 5th kyu, but I've heard of Sensei's that have pulled of growth in Aikido without guidence who were also low ranked, including one whom I have alot of respect for who I shall also not name out of respect, If another practitioner under me accidentaly kicked someone in the groin of the opposite sex while rolling, I would not want them to risk a law suit for Sexual Harassment.

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Old 03-22-2007, 05:31 PM   #4
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Evil Eyes Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I think you'll find teaching overwhelming very quickly. I don't know how long you've been training, but 5th kyu is pretty early to take on such and endevor; in my oppinion.

I would bite the bullet, and start training at one of the two dojo's you have avalible to you.
I admit I know for a fact that difficulties will or may arise but progess is expected to be slow, however imagine how many people out there want to learn who simply can't afford up to $150 per month. Actual ranked instructors grow and learn from students, but of course I need a partner. That is need.

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Old 03-22-2007, 05:38 PM   #5
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Evil Eyes Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Perhaps this is the best way to reiterate, I am going to proceed regardless. But, what I want is needed is advice on what to watch out for.

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Old 03-22-2007, 06:25 PM   #6
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Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

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Trevor Wolfe wrote: View Post
Perhaps this is the best way to reiterate, I am going to proceed regardless. But, what I want is needed is advice on what to watch out for.
Trevor,
You can disregard this obviously... But in my opinion you have no business setting up shop as a Fifth Kyu when there are two dojos around. It isn't just about what is "convenient" for you... the folks who choose to train with you are choosing not to train with some competent, which at Fifth Kyu you are not. If you are worried about liability, the number one liability is your inexperience. If someone gets hurt and you go to court, the very first thing their lawyer will ask is what your qualifications are, which are nil. At your level of experience you have absolutely no idea what you are doing and have no business even thinking about teaching anyone else. Even if you could find someone gullible enough to train with you, it is an active disservice to them to do so. I would say this even if there were no other alternatives in your area which there are. It would be better off if they did another art with someone competent than to do Aikido with you.

If you and some buddy decide to work out in your garage using videos, go ahead... it's a waste of time, in my opinion, but no one can stop you. But putting a group together under your "direction" is irresponsible.
- George

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 03-22-2007 at 06:28 PM.

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Old 03-22-2007, 06:47 PM   #7
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Evil Eyes Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Ledyard that is my biggest fear, what would you say about training twice a week, Ihear this is almost at no progress but with training extra outside at a convenient time to supplement the training how auout that, I'm really serious, I want to continue and I'm looking not only for contradiction but advice, because this has been done being inexperienced but continuing without the guidence provided by attending an actual dojo. I really have tried too hard to just quit.

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Old 03-22-2007, 07:01 PM   #8
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Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Quote:
Trevor Wolfe wrote: View Post
Ledyard that is my biggest fear, what would you say about training twice a week, Ihear this is almost at no progress but with training extra outside at a convenient time to supplement the training how auout that, I'm really serious, I want to continue and I'm looking not only for contradiction but advice, because this has been done being inexperienced but continuing without the guidence provided by attending an actual dojo. I really have tried too hard to just quit.
That is an entirely different model... If you can get to a class with decent instruction a couple times a week, you can turn around and do exactly the same material with your "study group". If you are lucky you might be able to set up some visits from instructors from the school where you are training in exchange for dinner and beer once in a while. I don't have any qualms about that as a model. In fact the Systema school next door to me started exactly that way. Now it's a full fledged school with three certified instructors. I think that is the way to go if you can swing it.

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Old 03-22-2007, 07:07 PM   #9
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Evil Eyes Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
That is an entirely different model... If you can get to a class with decent instruction a couple times a week, you can turn around and do exactly the same material with your "study group". If you are lucky you might be able to set up some visits from instructors from the school where you are training in exchange for dinner and beer once in a while. I don't have any qualms about that as a model. In fact the Systema school next door to me started exactly that way. Now it's a full fledged school with three certified instructors. I think that is the way to go if you can swing it.
Thats a spankin' idea keep em' coming.

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Old 03-22-2007, 07:37 PM   #10
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Evil Eyes Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Quote:
Trevor Wolfe wrote: View Post
Thats a spankin' idea keep em' coming.
I've decided your idea is a sound plan Ledyard, Tuesdays and Sundays in class, and provided I can get permission pull in two to tree extra practice sessions outside at a convenient time with willing participants. As I said I've known of people who have gotten through the beginning and became Shodan without a teacher, I just hope to hear from them on this and how it was accomplished. Thanks Ledyard!.

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Old 03-23-2007, 12:31 AM   #11
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Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Practice outside the dojo is good. When my wife was studying, we used to do this all the time to work through things.

There is nothing wrong with supplementing your training outside the dojo.

However, everyone needs a mentor and proper instruction to ensure you see things and are doing things correctly.

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Old 03-23-2007, 02:39 AM   #12
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Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

I agree with George and Kevin. There are some arts that you can work out ok with some mates and a video but I don't think Aikido is one of them. My initial thought was if it's a choice between doing something yourself (not a school) or nothing do something. But that's not the choice. If you really can't get to a class then put Aikido on hold and find a class you can get to.

If you can get to a class a couple of times a week supplimenting that with a study group is dandy. I would also suggest though that if possible you populate that study group with people from the class who are also looking to get more hours in. That way no ones having to instruct anyone, you can just keep drilling what you did in class.

I get the sense though you have some people coming to you asking you to show them stuff and these are the ty[es of people you were thinking of working with? If so I would tell them fine, so long as they get to class as well. I would be *very* cautious at your level of working with anyone who doesn't practice formally. It will put you into a role of teacher you're not ready for.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 03-23-2007, 05:00 AM   #13
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Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Trevor,

I would certainly agree that working out with the class twice a week is the way to go. You need to be very careful working out without the class and taking on the mantle of teacher/sensei. Having been in a similar situation following a move, you will find that working out alone, or convicing someone to workout with you outside of class is not at all the same thing. I have also seen the result of poorly qualified teachers instructing someone in aikidio. The students enjoy what they are doing, until they find out that they are not anywhere near the level of dojo-taught students. This breeds resentment and distrust of the person who has been teaching them. Finally, we have a similar situation near our dojo where someone who was really not qualified had a modest school and taught a combination of aikidio and other styles. His students have recently left, in mass, because they are not learning. He is angry with the students, angry the dojo that they have gone to, and his reputation has suffered by the lack of appropriate mentoring.

There is a saying, "rank has its privledges" but in martial arts it really should be "rank has its responsibilities." I agree with Ledyard sensei 100%. This is not a position that you are ready for.

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Old 03-23-2007, 05:32 AM   #14
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Evil Eyes Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

I think the advice is good, because the problem is that if the mates caught up to me, then they would have no choice but to progress at the exact same rate as me. The idea I really had was I guess brash, supplemental practice witht he mates is better. It really just seems being at a class daily till 9:30 PM would be awful, but pulling off just two calsses while solidifying if not having a chance to slowly investigate the techniques (where is Uke the absolute weakest, breaking down the techniques etc) would be highly supplemental. After all alot of times I don't see the chance to tinker with the bits and peices of a technique in class, it mainly feels like you really need to just do the technique as a whole and not in parts.

Anyhow the main thing is I've gotta get to the class and have this same conversation with a teacher and see what can be done.

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Old 03-23-2007, 05:47 AM   #15
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Evil Eyes Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Oh and by the way, my intention was not involving having people call me Sensei, and the idea that was great was of course the point of being able to take a technique like say Irimi Nage and sharpen each counterpart seperate before putting it together, because the advantage I'd have is the time and freedom to do so without worrying about deadlines for testing or the fact that I'm paying for slow progress. I see alot of advantages that I may get out of this.

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Old 03-23-2007, 10:09 AM   #16
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Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Trevor,
It seems you're getting good advice. Check out some technique books and videos (any recommendations?). I've heard Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere is good, and I believe there is some kind of DVD that really has specifics on techniques (almost interactive). Anybody know what I'm talking about?

Aikido is very difficult to learn without a partner, but I think you can improve techniques with these types of supplements if you remember them in your mind while training. This is Aikido (Koichi Tohei) is doing it for me.

Something like Krav Maga may be easier to learn from a video and practicing on your own. Anybody have experience checking out any Krav Maga videos?

Eric
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Old 03-23-2007, 12:12 PM   #17
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Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

At Go-kyu, I honestly think that training on your own will do more harm than good. If you want to train, train in the dojo. If that's inconvenient, train with a senior student who has at least 5 years more experience than you and who is willing to lead the training sessions - beer and dinner, as someone said.

I have seen very keen students work together outside of the dojo, only to replicate and propagate errors until they become habits that are later much harder to break. Often these bad habits carry on and trickle down.

Aikido isn't a race; take your time and learn well, not quickly.

GB
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:02 AM   #18
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Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

I'm a 5th kyu, and I can't even comprehend the idea of teaching Aikido anytime soon. Long path ahead of us, my friend!

But I can see you are obviously very passionate about the art at a very early level - which is very pleasing to see.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:12 AM   #19
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Evil Eyes Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

So it went well, no different then getting together for a jog. Figure I've been out of class since the beginning of December and I'm getting kinda weak, so since I'm planning on going back soon and I've got the freedom now I have the chance to get in shape before I go back.

Stretched out a bit, did some seated rolls, 30 each, then did about three minutes of shikko. Immediatly after did some simple Ikkyo and Yonkyo omote style in Suwari-waza. Tell you, legs are going to ache tomorrow. Threw some punches etc. Overall just took the time to do stuff slow.

So I figure why bother doing anything big, when I can work on exersises for rooting, centering, strengthening. After all I'll be going back to class soon anyway I've decided, may as well take this opportunity to get back into shape, so long as there's no high risk stuff. Guys might come with me to class when I go back.

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Old 03-24-2007, 09:15 AM   #20
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Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Quote:
Trevor Wolfe wrote: View Post
So it's like this, I've moved to a new city and of course there are two Aikikai Dojo's here
Consider yourself lucky.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:24 AM   #21
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Evil Eyes Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Point is only strengthening and toughening stuff, wont even do anything standing cause suwari waza has the extra benefit of deriving power from the centre, so try meeting up on friday again and do some simle basic stuff, and keep it simple and all should be well until I go back late next month, so thanks for counsel, much appreciated.

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Old 03-24-2007, 09:42 PM   #22
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Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

forget the nay sayers... have a small informal practice is good... if you worry about liability make sure they are adults and have them sign a waiver... i take issue with the folks that say aikido is SO hard you can't learn it or get proficient without 20 years of study... BULL... if you practice sincerely and diligently you will improve period... any sincere and diligent practice is better than bad or no practice... good luck

and as a gokyu you may have limited knowledge, but you can still share it and learn from sharing it... i learn more from newbies, than i do from "shihans" alot of times... aikido is for everyone and everyone can contribute and share...

Last edited by Edwin Neal : 03-24-2007 at 09:46 PM. Reason: wanted to say more...

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Old 03-25-2007, 09:25 AM   #23
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Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote: View Post
forget the nay sayers... have a small informal practice is good... if you worry about liability make sure they are adults and have them sign a waiver... i take issue with the folks that say aikido is SO hard you can't learn it or get proficient without 20 years of study... BULL... if you practice sincerely and diligently you will improve period... any sincere and diligent practice is better than bad or no practice... good luck

and as a gokyu you may have limited knowledge, but you can still share it and learn from sharing it... i learn more from newbies, than i do from "shihans" alot of times... aikido is for everyone and everyone can contribute and share...
Very nice Edwin.
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:44 PM   #24
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Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

it may just be me but it sounds to me like you're trying to figure out what classes you need to get in to make your practice with your mates "valid". I thought there was a conversation with your sensei going to be involved but now it seems you've started and won't be going back to formal class till next month.

You said you were concerned that if your mates came along to class with you they'd catch up and then they'd have to progress at your rate? what is the problem here exactly?

I like the idea of informal training on the side - but at your level you should be doing *everything* you can to make sure it's with peers or seniors - not anyone that's looking to you to instruct (whatever they may call you). I get the sense you're all too quickly looking to set up a practice group with people that know less than you not more....

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Old 03-25-2007, 05:01 PM   #25
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Evil Eyes Re: Unwilling To Give Up On Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
it may just be me but it sounds to me like you're trying to figure out what classes you need to get in to make your practice with your mates "valid". I thought there was a conversation with your sensei going to be involved but now it seems you've started and won't be going back to formal class till next month.
I decided to just get some out of class practice in with some friends and get back into shape with them before going back, and if they still find it fun by then- then maybe I'll be joining with some people I know and can practice with off mat time. So no harm done.

Besides as I said there are things I can dedicate time to like, with my old teacher, when we would practice Kokyu Dosa, I would press his hands on his thighs as hard as possible, and he would appear to do almost nothing which somehow caused me to jolt to my feet off balance before hitting the floor, and so next time we'll try and get a significant bit on that done and they can learn and I can experiment. Like I said it's temporary, it gets them interested and me well I can pursue points of interest and sharpen up.

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