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Old 03-20-2007, 10:28 PM   #76
Aristeia
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

no doubt, and I dont' disagree with his opinion. Just seems like an odd question to ask him.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 03-21-2007, 12:59 AM   #77
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Stan,

I don't understand why you will throw out things like this topic, judge people and the art they study by some standard that you will not define. You have no record or reputation here that we know about, and then when confronted directly on the issue, it is up to me to "come find out"!

I need a little more than a few post on the internet and a little bit better idea concernng the criteria you are talking about.

It could run the gamut from simple drills like unbendable arm, kokyu drills/exercises from a semi static position....to all out non-compliance.

Which is why I ask for a definition of the criteria in which such a venue or training event would take place. It is definiable. Any training that I do or people ask me to do, I always define the task, conditions, and the standards prior to that event taking place.

Here are two sets of rules that would be a good starting point for discussion about such a set of parameters in which to judge how an internal guy and a "guy that does not get it"./non-shihan albeit, could meet on common ground and demonstrate the fighting that you have yet to define.

Pancrase rules are decent as they allow for striking and kicking, but are restrictive enough to ensure someone does not get hurt seriously. I also wear Blauer suits or the like during such training. Of course we could modify the standards of these rules as necessary. (Personally I don't think strikes and kicks are necessary to demonstrate fighting effectiveness, but some people throw that in there as too limiting.

http://www.pancrase.co.jp/en/rules/index.html#009

NAGA graplling rules are decent. I prefer them over standard BJJ rules. No strikes, kicks, put pretty much anything else goes. I recommend leaving out knee bars etc as they are too dangerous, however things like kotegaeshi are fine I think.

http://nagafighter.com/naga_rules.asp

Let me know what you think about the rules set! Maybe the Shodukan Aikido rules are decent for this? I don't know having never seen them before.

Note in the rules that it does not say anywhere that you cannot use aikido techniques or aikido anything, so any one would be free to use anything that they have learned over the years in aikido.

I think this is a good start for discussion over the criteria upon which an event could be conducted safely, constructively, and in which those of us that really care how an internalist has to bring to the table in a non-compliant venue.

Of course we could also slow things down a little too once proficiency has been demonstrated in a particular way so as to isolate out the training objectives so everyone can see, experience what it is that is being effectively done.

I am not talking about a "my dad can beat up your dad" event or a dojo challenge. I am talking about an alive, constructive event in which the ability to apply concepts and principles can be demonstrated in a way that approximates reality as best we can safely.

It can be done, I do it all the time.

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Old 03-21-2007, 01:10 AM   #78
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

A quick thought....

I think you guys are up in New England...Jason Delucia would be the perfect guy to facilitate such an event! I can check to see if he would be willing to do this! What do you think?

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Old 03-21-2007, 02:14 AM   #79
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Kevin,

I would characterize myself as somewhere in the dabbler/hobbyist range as a martial artist and not even remotely a fighter, so count me out. However, I think what you are proposing sounds very reasonable and, judging by the number of threads of this type I've seen here over a few years, sorely needed in Aikido, at least by a vocal, perennial minority. Although you have said that you are not a high-level teacher, it sounds like you have the vision and experience to facilitate this sort of thing. Instead of staging an 'event', maybe you should work up something more along the lines of a paradigm or procedure for how to make this a safe and doable thing for others, then do it more than once. You wouldn't need more, as the participants would teach each other and themselves with direct feedback. If you could make this something that a wide array of people could quickly learn the rules of and participate in safely, I think something like the Aiki Expos sponsored by this site would probably be the perfect venue to set up your tent...
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Old 03-21-2007, 02:46 AM   #80
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Thanks for the feed back Kevin.

Semantics, but I would stop short of saying aikido needs this type of event. There are those in aikido that would benefit from such an event though. The ones that have questions/concerns along these lines.

the challenge, as you point out, is dealing with the various paradigms and expectations and getting them straight.

I think it would take a great deal of prior discussion here on aikiweb or in some other format to get everyone CLOSE to the same sheet of music.

Frankly, you can accomplish this by going to any decent MMA school in your area and working with them, but there is a certain amount of dissonance, paradigms, and what not that need to be mentored and addressed that a typical MMA school simply does not understand from the perspective of an aikidoka, nor do they possess the vested interest to address.

I think that maybe someone like Jason Delucia, even though I don't know much about his aikido background, would be appropriate to host such an event. He does have a broad background in CMA/TMA and is one of the "orignial" MMAs

Reverse engineering all this discussion and thoughts leads to straight MMA or the basic concepts of Jeet Kune Do so in effect, it is circular logic.

For whatever reason though, when you throw MMA or JKD on the table, people seem to either move towards it...or run away from it.
Those that are left in the middle...are confused and become easy prey for the charletons and snakeoil salesman that have various wares they wish to sell for whatever reason!

I want to be clear to those that might be reading this without knowlege of my other post here on aikiweb. I am not proposign that there is ANYTHING wrong with traditional study of aikido. In fact, I think it is a wonderful practice. Nor I am advocating that JKD or MMA is the way for everyone to study....it depends on what your goals in life and as a martial artist are.

I find value in both ways...for different reasons. I also find the methodologies to be mutually supportive and both keep you honest and your ego in check if approached properly.

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Old 03-21-2007, 05:43 AM   #81
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
What is Fedor's qualification to comment on Aikido?
I'd say when you are virtually undefeated against the toughest men who have ever entered a ring for MMA fighting, you are qualified to say what will and will not work in your ring.

Besides he's right, it can't work in the ring if nobody ever uses it in the ring.

If I was feeling a bit teasing I'd say who are the aikido shihans to say it would work in the ring? You could even throw out the, they are not qualified to comment on what will work in the ring until they have fought fedor type comments that a lot of traditional people throw out (If you haven't trainined with X shihan you can't comment this art sucks...)

I guess I am feeling a bit like teasing today

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-21-2007, 06:34 AM   #82
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Don Wrote:

Quote:
You could even throw out the, they are not qualified to comment on what will work in the ring until they have fought fedor type comments that a lot of traditional people throw out (If you haven't trainined with X shihan you can't comment this art sucks...)
I'd agree with this. I don't think I have heard any shihan comment on this issue, or even care about it.

The converse applies as well. This is what you are saying... correct?

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Old 03-21-2007, 07:24 AM   #83
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

The futility of this discussion is that no serious competitor in MMA is only going to train in one "style". That's right, not even BJJ (heck even in the early Vale Tudo/UFC matches, you could see the Gracies working bag drills and sparring with strikers)! So that whole thing is kind of a moot point.

Which then gets back to the real issue of why are you training and is your training meeting your needs (and are you meeting the requirements of your training)?

If you are meeting your goals (which are rarely static, they change - just like life) with your aikido training and being honest about what you're training in aikido -- what's the problem?

Last edited by Budd : 03-21-2007 at 07:26 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-21-2007, 07:26 AM   #84
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

I was really just teasing the people who make comments like "Until you have trained with Shihan X you have no right to comment on X art", Or "I would like to see you tell Shihan X that...". I've started using this argument for fun by saying things like "Until you have defeated Fedor you can't comment that MMA doesn't work in the street."

But yes, the converse applys, Aikido shihan are no more qualified to comment on what works in MMA then MMA fighters are qualified to comment on what good aikido is. To comment on something they have no experience in would be silly. How could a aikido shihan know aikido works or doesn't work in the ring. There is only one way to know, get up and use it in the ring. If a shihan did comment on if aikido would or would not work in the ring without actual ring fighting experience, they would be speculating. I try to not put any stock in speculation when you have a very easy means of getting proof.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-21-2007, 08:19 AM   #85
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Why you so fired up Don? I merely asked if anyone has any sources to an interview were a Shihan has happened to voice his opinion on MMA, since I'm simply curious. I don't care about who can beat who.
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Old 03-21-2007, 08:21 AM   #86
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Yes, I agree Don, hence my comments concerning this topic as well. As usual you and I are on the same wave length.

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Old 03-21-2007, 08:49 AM   #87
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
The futility of this discussion is that no serious competitor in MMA is only going to train in one "style". That's right, not even BJJ (heck even in the early Vale Tudo/UFC matches, you could see the Gracies working bag drills and sparring with strikers)! So that whole thing is kind of a moot point.

Which then gets back to the real issue of why are you training and is your training meeting your needs (and are you meeting the requirements of your training)?

If you are meeting your goals (which are rarely static, they change - just like life) with your aikido training and being honest about what you're training in aikido -- what's the problem?
Yes i agree Budd. I personally ask this question all the time. Why are you training and is your training meeting your goals. That is really the essence of it. It is personal in nature.

For some reason we sometimes take a victim mentality toward training and hold these Shihan to very high expectations and then suck the living life out of them, hanging on every word that they say, looking for meaning even when it is not there.

Then we feel ripped off when for whatever reason our training does not meet our expectation, when in reality, we never bothered to define our expectations...we just went along on good faith that they were going to teach us "something", yet "something" was never defined!

I know I started MA training years ago, I didn't know why I did it other than it seemed like a good thing to do and it fit my personality. I fell into the same mind set of training and doing what I was told to do with expectations of enlightment or skill based on what my Shihan or instructors were teaching.

So, yes, I think the first question we have to come to grips with in our training is "why are we training?" Second, "is it meeting our goals".

It is a personal question for each one of us, one that we must hold ourselves responsible for, not some shihan or anyone else!

On a side bar. I think in the U.S. at least is that we culturally/socially have an issue with personal responsibility. tthis is an extention of this issue.

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Old 03-21-2007, 09:19 AM   #88
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Why you so fired up Don?
I'm not. You don't think I'm taking this thread seriously?

Kevin, you got the two most important questions right there.

Why are we training? Does this meet our goals?

Of course I add the 3rd question. Is this the most efficient use of my time to meet my goals?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:27 AM   #89
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Kevin, I think you touched on something important with "Personal Responsibility". A couple of other things I'll add to that are "Belief Systems" and "Belonging/Entitlement".

Personal Responsibility - A lot of people seem to think that if they pay their fees and show up, they'll get what they're looking for. Although, to be fair, aptitude, commitment and priorities are going to play a part in this one as well, but where this breaks down is that people can make "assumptions" about what they're doing without critically scrutinizing their progress. This feeds into the next thing . . .

Belief Systems - People attach worth to things that are important to them. E.G. I want to learn to defend myself without harming my attacker. Some aikido schools say they train to teach this. I train at one of these schools, therefore I am training (or expect someday) to be able to do this. Does this seem like a logical progression of thought? Does it stand up to logical scrutiny? What other criteria might be important to examine support this conclusion? Could you outline a similar set of logical fallacy progressions to apply to those espousing the "internal" and/or "mma" - only - approach? What it comes down to, in my opinion, is that "Belief Systems" are inevitable, but it's worth taking them out of the box, shining them and viewing them under a microscope from time to time to make sure your mint-condition Amazing Fantasy # 15 isn't just a reproduction that was pre-packaged in last year's Cheerios box. Though the ones that mistake the former for the latter may then find themselves with an inflated sense of . . .

Belonging/Entitlement - To some folks, since they've been able to socialize, it's been very important to them to belong to the "Cool Kids Klub". Whether it's the Aikido Dojo that has the largest collection of O-Sensei's handkerchiefs, the MMA gym that is currently most en vogue (though, I want to go visit Team Quest, Jackson's, Miletich and American Top Team before I die), the students of the guy that can whup everyone with their "ki" or the most respected posters of a particular message board -- some people find a great deal of value in "Belonging". In some social instances, this is empowering, but there's often some negatives that manifest as "Entitlement" and subsequent dismissal of the outgroup. This type of stuff can be observed in lots of clan-based environments, but boils down to individuals that think they are worth a damn because of who their teachers/buddies are, rather than their own merits.

What does this have to do with training? These things are worth keeping in mind as you put in the years training at the activities you're pursuing to meet your goals. I also think that sometimes the above things are mistakenly viewed as benchmarks/goals in training, rather than checkpoints that should be monitored. Of course, all this is simply based on my own experiences/years in training and the mistakes and missteps I've made along the way (more to come, I'm sure ).
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Old 03-21-2007, 02:13 PM   #90
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Very good comment Budd!

on Personal Responsibility. As Eugene Levy Says: "response....able". seriously though....I like the old saying "to thine own self be true".

On Beliefs: you mention attachment. A very key point, we form attachments or associations based on our experiences, which may or may not be reality. (Cognitive Dissonance). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Just a few hundred years ago many believed the earth was flat and you'd sail off the edge of it. Where they necessarily wrong? No, it was a unproven hypothesis at the time. However, it also did not mean they were right either! What we experience or hypothesize may not always be reality...again. Cognitive Dissonance...a very important concept I think wrt Martial arts.

Belonging: I think it his human to want/need to belong or identify with a group. Nothing wrong with that, however I agree with your point concerning "competence by association".

Again good points. This isn't sexy stuff that people want to discuss...but I think it is baseline skill that we must come to terms with in our studies if we want to grow in our understanding of the DO.

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Old 03-21-2007, 06:00 PM   #91
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

So after 4 pages on this thread the " Shihan Vs Fighters" question has still not been answered. The reason for this is that the question cannot be answered and is really just plain rediculous. I really cant understand how these threads continually come up. All styles are effective. It is practictioners who are not effective and if one is always questioning ones own style and other styles this may be in indicator of a lack of confidence in ones own effectiveness. Rather than talking about trivial "what if's" one might be better served recommiting oneself to his/her chosen art. I've studied more than one style and met some pretty tough fighter from various styles. I would never be so bold as to claim my style(s) is better than another but I am confident I can be effective in what I have learned.
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:53 PM   #92
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

It seems that the most successful fighters these days are mixed martial artists.

They're using Tae Kwon Do kicks, Kung Fu defense, Karate punches, Judo throws, Jiu Jitsu grappling tech. All strong elements from martial arts with inherent weaknesses.

Aikido brings a lot to the party- joint locks, blending, using natural forces to assist your throws. Nifty and useful stuff, and I think especially so against multiple or larger opponents. But like all MA, it has it's weaknesses, if it's all you know.

My point this time and always is that you should know and use Aikido (yes, specifically Aikido) if it's prudent but not rely on it or limit yourself to it as some kind of pretense.
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Old 03-21-2007, 10:04 PM   #93
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

One side note: Yoshinkan Aikido's Hombu Dojo has a year-long, famously grueling, instructor certification course called "Senshusei". It's said to be worse than 12 months of Foreign Legion boot camp.

I wonder how ten freshly graduated Kidotai would fare against the ten mixed-martial-arts competitors?
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Old 03-21-2007, 10:35 PM   #94
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Very interesting topic, and one couldn't train in anything without considering it deeply. From my point of view it seems that many of the higher ranking Aikikai (as well as a few lower ranked) are students of the Art of War or Martial Art. (I know Aikido is also known as the Art of Peace).
I would have to believe that as an experienced student of such art they would not engage themselves in a direct confrontation with someone who is physically stronger, faster, albeit less experience. The Art of War suggest one to know their enemy. Sense we are talking about war and not a fight then we are talking about life and death. In that case I'd have to put the odds in favor of an experienced warrior. One who would kill by most effect means possible. By using deception and tactics to mislead and confuse an enemy.
However I do believe that the original poster is right. One on one in a ring with rules, judges, and an audience it makes since that the experienced MMA would have a better chance. I doubt though that any 60 year old master of Aikido would have any desire to do such a thing.

Thank you for reading,
Ryan Bertram
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Old 03-22-2007, 02:54 AM   #95
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
One side note: Yoshinkan Aikido's Hombu Dojo has a year-long, famously grueling, instructor certification course called "Senshusei". It's said to be worse than 12 months of Foreign Legion boot camp.

I wonder how ten freshly graduated Kidotai would fare against the ten mixed-martial-arts competitors?
in what? MMA? Poorly. Nage waza comparison? Very well. Ukemi? Very well. Chess? It's a wash...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 03-22-2007, 08:12 AM   #96
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Has anyone ever tried those MMA gloves they have to wear? How does it affect your grip? (If you can grip anything at all)
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Old 03-22-2007, 08:31 AM   #97
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Has anyone ever tried those MMA gloves they have to wear? How does it affect your grip? (If you can grip anything at all)
The gloves make it difficult to apply techniques requiring the finer motor skills. For some persons, this may be a big problem. For others, that practice superior positioning through atemi and movement, rather than worry too much about applying a specific "technique", this might not be a big deal.
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Old 03-22-2007, 08:45 AM   #98
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

I heard grapplers saying it has definitely become more difficult for them as they can "feel" less with their hands...if it bugged them, I wonder how hard it would be doing something like sliding your hand in for shihonage?
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Old 03-22-2007, 08:53 AM   #99
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

I usually do not notice the MMA gloves except when they are grabbed (makes it harder to break the grip. This is also illegal in MMA, you can grab the hand, but not the padding of the glove exclusivly), I'm trying to slide my hand in for a choke (a bigger leather hand is a lot less easy to slip in), and when I'm trying to attack the hand (the glove provides wrist support which makes it harder to use the wrist as a lever to break their grip or submit them).

Other then that, I almost never notice when I'm wearing gloves. I'd like to point out that I use open palm, open thumb gloves. I can't stand gloves with a thumb, it makes it harder to grapple for some reason.

- Don
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Old 03-22-2007, 09:07 AM   #100
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
I heard grapplers saying it has definitely become more difficult for them as they can "feel" less with their hands...if it bugged them, I wonder how hard it would be doing something like sliding your hand in for shihonage?
That's my point. If you define shihonage as something that requires you to manipulate the other persons hand a certain way with a certain grip, then the gloves will be a problem.

However, if you're looking at it from the perspective of entering in such a way that it fixes their arm/hand in a spot by which you can enter/move again and put them down in any direction via that connection with their arm, well then then the gloves may help maintain that connection.

For an example in MMA, watch how Karo Parisyan sets up his judo throws in a no-gi setup and you'll get an idea how this can work.
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