Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-19-2007, 01:23 PM   #51
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,371
Germany
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

I understand what you are saying Don. When I return to the U.S. I will be splitting my time between Lloyd Irvin's school, Alliance BJJ in Atlanta, when I can, and Aikido of Northern VA.

Obviously I won't be the best aikidoka, nor the best BJJ/MMA guy in the world, there are always trade offs!

I would love to get together with you at some point and work out, as it seems we see things in much the same way, and have had similar experiences. It'd be fun to see the similarities and differences in training!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 01:29 PM   #52
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,371
Germany
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Eric,

Agree with your thoughts. However, I think one school of thought would say this: "if self defense is a concern of yours, then don't you owe it to yourself to train in the most effective ways possible that give you real skill, in as short amount of time, as efficiently as possible?""

I think this is the crux of why we end up with this issue in aikido, we confuse what and why we study what we do.

As you say though, there are better reasons and more logical reasons to study budo and aikido than self defense, which is the most illogical reason to spend all this time and money studying something that is an absolute inefficent delivery system for learning self defense!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 01:33 PM   #53
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,371
Germany
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Ron Tisdale wrote:

Quote:
Gee, this could be a quote from Dan, or Mike, in that other thread...what's it called...
There is alot of things said, by alot of people in that thread. Not sure it is all logically organized, sorted out, and clear...chock full of emotion and assumptions! or maybe it is just not clear to me.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 01:46 PM   #54
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Ok so I think Kevin L. has the best idea so far regarding the throwdown. If we are having one however I wanna be a referee. Or better yet, one of those guys who check the ring girls for concealed items. Should I call HBO?

I find these threads funny since the folks who actually throwdown using Aikido (including those I know personally who are also on Aikiweb) hardly if ever post anything in these threads. Apparently they don't have all the questions a lot of folks here seem to be having.

Maybe it's Aikidoka Magic Pill Syndrome - since there is not enough actual testing by many to find out what works and why, everyone is looking for a quick "upgrade" that will give them an edge, or alternatively a method of indicating that it was never designed to "actually work physically", removing the need for any "martial upgrades".

I guess the newest pill/fix is "internal skills" it used to be Atemi being 99% of everything at one time or training in Daito Ryu to get that martial edge. Of course there is nothing new about these things wrt Aikido they're just unseen, like most good things in MA I guess.

Have fun folks.

Gambatte.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 01:46 PM   #55
barry.clemons
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Location: Inglewood
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
what dream, many of us in aikido have felt that the top aikidoist were on some high level control anybody with no effort. but in reality they would get there butts kicked by the best fighters.

st5an
I think i understand your statement/question. My response is two-fold:

First; comparing Aikido with other martial arts in competition, to me, is false logic. To me, Aikido is in a different category than competition fighting, operating within completely different paradigms. The 'dream' as you you put it, is the world you have suggested, where the top 10 anyone fights the top 10 anyone else.

Second; it's the individual who makes the most of the their training. there is no individual style of martial art that is superior. there is no 'all things being equal' in battle. the advantage comes to those who came prepared.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 01:50 PM   #56
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,371
Germany
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Yes Larry, I agree with your insights.

Now where did I put that pill???

Oh...something shiny, ahhh....pretty...

What were we talking about???

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 02:00 PM   #57
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

I would like to point out that at local MMA events, I usually serve one of two jobs. The first, a judge, which I enjoy, the second, I help ring girls into and out of the ring, this I truly enjoy.

I'd be down for a throwdown. I have attended one in chicago, and I'm trying to make time to attend one again.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 02:12 PM   #58
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,371
Germany
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

We have had a couple of get togethers here in Germany, more BJJ oriented, but fun none-the-less. Actually sometimes my normal classes are throwdowns being in the army, as you never know who is going to walk through the door on any given day with any given outlook or skill sets!

I simply LOVE training that way!

I am probably going to the Chicago area later this summer for an Adoption group reunion with some friends from the area. It would be great if it worked out!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 02:18 PM   #59
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

pardon the interruption but.....

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I understand what you are saying Don. When I return to the U.S. I will be splitting my time between Lloyd Irvin's school, Alliance BJJ in Atlanta, when I can, and Aikido of Northern VA!
Kevin,

I'd love to hear what it's like training at Lloyd Irvin's school. I've heard that he has a unique methodology that focuses on transitions.

If you wouldn't mind posting what it's like.

Regards,

Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 03:08 PM   #60
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,812
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Hi follks,

Can we please bring the focus of this thread back to aikido? Thank you.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 03:14 PM   #61
Esaemann
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 92
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Kevin,

Sorry, off topic. You mentioned that Saotome is your Shihan. I'm looking forward to meeting him for the first time this weekend, as he is coming to our dojo. He is my Sensei's teacher. I've heard this should be quite an experience, but very crowded mat also. It would be nice to have more individual instruction, but with 60 on the mat, oh well.

Eric
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 04:50 PM   #62
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,371
Germany
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Paul: I won't be training with Lloyd Irvin's school until late July/August. I was referred there by Jacare Cavalcanti, 6 Dan BJJ.

Eric,

60 people is nothing on the mat! Go to Cherry Blossom seminar with a couple of 100! 60 is what they run at the DC dojo when he is in town! Consider 60 people not much and have a good time!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 06:23 AM   #63
stan baker
Location: east granby, ct
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 174
Wake Island
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

from looking at the response this looks like a good topic for inquiry, we can also consider how many fighters that are sixty or seventy could handle internal martial artists of the same age on another note I donot think we have to wait to be sixty to have great internal skills I think Dan Harden is trying very hard to make that point. and to prove that point just look at wang hai jun my taiji teacher at 35 has some of the most powerful internal power and skills I have ever seen.

stan
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 08:06 AM   #64
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,403
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote: View Post
OK, I set the rules: None, but the only tool is a live blade (katana).
Could be interesting, but I guess all the shihan would survive.
8 because choose, not to enter as they neither want to kill or to be killed. And two might enter, but probably your 2 best mma fighters will would withdraw.

Then all 20 survived. What is your view on that result?

Cheers Dirk
Thanks Dirk.
For Stan: This an eternally pointless debate. It is neither about budo or bujutsu. Those are about war. " "War means fighting, and fighting means killing." This discussion is about play and sport, because it is most definitely not about life and death.

Saotome is reputed to have said once, pointing to his head:

"This is your trophy. You win, you keep your head."

I began Aikido under someone who was trained to kill for a living. He came to aikido at a critical point in his life. He described aikido to me as just as deadly serious on the life or death scale, but on the side of life -- O Sensei's "true budo." That stuck with me. I entered the killing profession myself. I found that I had to wrap my brain and heart around the problem of death and killing. I came to the same conclusion, and have continued in aikido with that intent.

You want to win in real fighting, well -- here ya go:

Quote:
WIlliam Tecumseh Sherman wrote:
I confess, without shame, that I am sick and tired of fighting—its glory is all moonshine; even success the most brilliant is over dead and mangled bodies, with the anguish and lamentations of distant families, appealing to me for sons, husbands, and fathers ... it is only those who have never heard a shot, never heard the shriek and groans of the wounded and lacerated ... that cry aloud for more blood, more vengeance, more desolation.
There is the problem O Sensei sought to solve -- through true budo.

If you just want to win a real fight, have a shotgun handy -- its quicker and less finicky. You may find, if you dwell on this point very seriously, that you do not like even imagining victory found in real fighting. If you find that you do like it -- well, we have places to help you with that, too.

"True victory -- self-victory. Come swiftly, O Day of Victory."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 08:25 AM   #65
Dirk Hanss
 
Dirk Hanss's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 471
Germany
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Just wanted to step in and say that I appreciate the respectful tone that people have used in the latest posts in this thread. Thank you.
Jun,
I am not sure, as your post came just a few minute after mine. nevertheless I take it personally.

Thanks very much Jun

Best regards Dirk
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 10:54 AM   #66
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,371
Germany
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Stan wrote:

Quote:
from looking at the response this looks like a good topic for inquiry, we can also consider how many fighters that are sixty or seventy could handle internal martial artists of the same age on another note I donot think we have to wait to be sixty to have great internal skills I think Dan Harden is trying very hard to make that point. and to prove that point just look at wang hai jun my taiji teacher at 35 has some of the most powerful internal power and skills I have ever seen.
Really? i hadn't noticed!

Stan, so how do you define fighter? by what criteria do you judge a a fighter vice non-fighter?

How do you define success as a fighter?

I'd like a shot at "handling" a self defined internal martial artist of the same age (I am 42).

How do you define "handling" ?

what would be teh endstate to have to do to be judged as successfully "handling"?

constraints? limitations?

I really, honestly want to see how I measure up to the "internal" clubs standards.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 06:47 PM   #67
stan baker
Location: east granby, ct
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 174
Wake Island
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Hi Kevin,
go and check it out then you will find out how you measure up.

stan
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 09:15 PM   #68
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Craig,

your missing the point, take the ten best shihans ,and ten best fighters in the world. dream on if you want to.

stan
Hey FANTASY MATCH UP, my nieces and nephews love these type of game on PS2.

Hey Stan, here is a thought...

When you grow up, study genetic engineering. Then extract the DNA of 10 past shihan and MMA fighter. Clone them, then make them do battle in a scientifically controlled environement. They eat the same food, sleep in the same type of place, live in the same type of environment etc. One of them study MMA, the other study aikido purely.

Then ask them to battle it out at age 5, 10, 15 , 20 and 25. Statistically analyze the results. After that Clone another new set and do a cross over studies. Wow, the result would be irrefutable.

That, my boy is how you do a scientific experiment. I suggest you get a head start Boy, genetic engineering is a very demanding field of studies. That means no more PS2 for you.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 09:28 PM   #69
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

If it was only that easy. The diet needed to excel in MMA training would probably be too many calories for someone who trains only in aikido. Not to mention so many other variables. But we are off to a good start, who wants to collect the DNA samples....ewwwww

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 09:34 PM   #70
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,812
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Hi folks,

Last request to please keep on-topic and away from personal attacks.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 09:58 PM   #71
Roman Kremianski
Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
Location: Toronto, Canada
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 404
Canada
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Does anyone have any interviews or something like that where a shihan commented on UFC or maybe stated his opinion of Aikido and UFC?

Well, I started young, so you shall witness my Aikido in the octagon in a few years anyway. Bwaha.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 10:00 PM   #72
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Does anyone have any interviews or something like that where a shihan commented on UFC or maybe stated his opinion of Aikido and UFC?

Well, I started young, so you shall witness my Aikido in the octagon in a few years anyway. Bwaha.
I read somewhere in an interview with Fedor E. The interviewer asked him specifically will Aikido work in the ring. Fedor E said NO.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 10:04 PM   #73
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

What is Fedor's qualification to comment on Aikido?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 10:05 PM   #74
Roman Kremianski
Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
Location: Toronto, Canada
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 404
Canada
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Fedor is an Aikido Shihan now?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 10:24 PM   #75
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Shihan vs Fighters

Here is the original link in Russian:
http://fedor.bel.ru/forum2/index.php...pic=1434&st=60

Here is a transcript by a sherdog forum member: See last question.
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showpo...08&postcount=1

Boon.

P/S Hey, don't get so rilled up.... Fedor was just being Fedor.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Koretoshi Maruyama European Seminar - Maruyama Sensei will be in Cumbria UK, 1st-3rd August, 2014



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fujita Shihan 8th Dan in the Philippines CitoMaramba Seminars 13 12-04-2009 07:54 AM
Tamura shihan friendship seminar PeterKang Seminars 1 12-08-2006 07:31 AM
Tamura Shihan and Yamada Shihan in Buenos Aires, 11/10-11/11/07 AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 1 11-17-2006 06:10 AM
Fujita Shihan 8th Dan Aikikai in Israel, 8/12-8/13 AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 2 08-02-2005 09:42 AM
Robert Kubo Shihan at Orange County Aikikai AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 09-28-2004 10:54 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:44 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate